NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[Bob8]

Of course Shaq had a higher FG%.

For one, Shaq dunked 20% of the time. Jokic dunks 2.1% of the time.

Shaq took 92.5% of his shots inside 10 feet. 50.9% inside three feet, with an average FG distance of 4.0 feet career. Jokic takes 60.6% of his shots inside 10 feet, 28.5% of his shots inside 3 feet, with an average FG distance of 10.8 feet.

Shaq took 22 threes and 5 were heaves as the buzzer. Jokic has taken 1624 threes in his career.

1. Jokic's shot selectivity is nonpareil in the Databall Era.

2. Jokic's efficiency from 5-10 feet and 5-15 feet is also totally unmatched in the past 26 years.

These are feathers in his cap, brother. Huge ones.

And what success has brought Denver Jokic's 5-10 feet shooting? Wouldn't it be better, if he was shooting from elsewhere more and with even higher efficiency? It's nice stats, but I don't believe being the best shooter from 5-15 means anything significant.

Wouldn't it be better if he was shooting elsewhere with even higher efficiency? So better than GOAT efficiency from there, you want him to shoot from further out and shoot at even higher efficiency?

While you're making outlandish requests, wouldn't it be nice if Doncic averaged 50 on above average efficiency? His current 33 is nice but I don't think it means anything significant

"Yeah I know he's putting up GOAT efficiency numbers...but wouldn't it be nice if he did even better?"...Jokic got y'all going crazy

The debate was about his great % from 5-15 feet. It's hard to understand, why this should be important. Would be worse, if he was a little worse from 5-15, but scoring more points taking more shots 0-5? That 5-15 is just arbitrary chosen distance to show how good shooter he's.

Yes, he's a great player, but I'm not that amazed by C scoring 25 points efficiently. I'm amazed by C play making like him.

[Cubbies2120]

And Jokic getting to the WCF with Murray performing the way he did isn't all that impressive.

To beat the Clippers, who were title favorites going into 2nd round, to get to the WCF:

Murray: 22.5 / 4.4 / 6.4 on 44.7% shooting
Jokic: 24.4 / 13.4 / 6.5 on 51.5% shooting

Huge carry job by Murray, obvi.

To put it into perspective, Embiid's THIRD option (Maxey) was putting up 20ppg on better shooting last year in the series to get them to WCF (they lost to Heat).

If Murray's 22.5 on 44.7% shooting is considered "performing the way he did", then what's Embiid's excuse for losing to the Heat, given he had Maxey 'performing the way he did'? They lost two in Miami without him, and the one he did play in Miami was a 35 point beatdown, and then in the clouseout game he shot 24x and made 29% of his field goals...

[Cubbies2120]

Yes, he's a great player, but I'm not that amazed by C scoring 25 points efficiently. I'm amazed by C play making like him.

25 points efficiently is significantly downplaying what he's doing.

Unless by "efficiently" you mean all-time great, Prime-Shaq-like efficiency?

That's like me saying "I'm not that amazed by Luka scoring decently in the playoffs"

[ty 4191]

I'm not talking about their teammates.. I'm talking about how close Embiid was to the ECF. And Jokic getting to the WCF with Murray performing the way he did isn't all that impressive.

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I'm talking about teammates.

It's a team game.

Nobody ever won a championship without ever having a single All Star Teammate.

Embiid has had much better teammates than Jokic (that's a fact I just displayed), and yet, he hasn't gotten as far as Jokic has, or, performed nearly as well as Jokic has in the playoffs.

[eyeatoma]

I'm not talking about their teammates.. I'm talking about how close Embiid was to the ECF. And Jokic getting to the WCF with Murray performing the way he did isn't all that impressive.

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I'm talking about teammates.

It's a team game.

Nobody ever won a championship without ever having a single All Star Teammate.

Embiid has had much better teammates than Jokic (that's a fact I just displayed), and yet, he hasn't gotten as far as Jokic has, or, performed nearly as well as Jokic has in the playoffs.

Because many of those teammates haven't been great when it matters most.

You realize Simmons choked the Hawks series away right?

Embiid waa injured in that series with a torn meniscus and was still dominant.

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[DCasey91]

Sure, but that's why Cs are on the top of TS%. They're shooting easier shots. Jokic is not doing something unprecedented there.

As was previously noted, Jokic's career FG% from 5-10 feet is an (astounding) .572 (1649 FGA).

Since 1996-1997, min 1000 FGA, here are some other leaders among players who were primarily (or exclusively) centers.

-Nikola Jokic: .572
-Jonas Valančiūnas: .499
-Karl-Anthony Towns: .485
-Rik Smits: .479
-Robin Lopez: .476
-Hakeem Olajuwon: .473
-Brook Lopez: .459
-Nikola Vučević: .456
-Yao Ming: .453
-Alonzo Mourning:
-Marc Gasol: .446
-Tim Duncan: .430
-Shaquille O'Neal: .421
-Dikembe Mutombo: .419
-Dwight Howard: .397
-Andre Drummond: .382

(PS: As another frame of reference, Giannis shoots .341 (!!) from 5-10 feet.)

If you look at all players with 1000 FGA from 5-10 feet the past 26 years, this puts Jokic's Z Score at +4.2 (standard deviations above the mean). That is 99.973rd percentile!!

As a frame of reference, Wilt scored 40.6 PPG from 1959-1960 through 1964-1965. Oscar was second with 31.1 ppg. Wilt's Z Score for PPG was "only" 3.09 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 10000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 17 PPG, FWIW.

Rodman's TRB% 1991-1992 through 1997-1998 was a staggering 26.0%. Shawn Kemp was a (very) distant second at 19.0%. Rodman's Z Score was "only" 2.85 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 15000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 11.2% TRB%.

(So, yes... I totally agree with you Bob; Jokic's playmaking and passing are his greatest assets, however, his shooting and shot selection are also unprecedented in modern NBA History.)

PS: Jokic is also third (among all players) since 1996-1997 on FG% from 10-15 feet among all players with 800 FGA. .482 FG%

Notables:
Durant: .473
Curry: .470
Nowitzki: .468
Nash: .466
Garnett: .453
Olajuwon: .447
Jordan: .442
Ray Allen: .430
Kobe: .430
Embiid: .423
Duncan: .406
Reggie Miller: .397
Ewing: .396
Karl Malone: .377
Giannis: .373
Shaq: .314 (last, out of 182 players with 800 FGA)

The comp I always had was Dirk+ Bird… doesn’t seem too far fetched right now lol. His volume and shot selection is incredible (along with a whole bunch of other things on offence). Dirk shot more from midrange but just sub in Jokic’s 3pt shots.

Jokic is easily a top ten offensive player all time once his career is done. Not everyday you find a one man system in a center.

[Duke4life831]

And Jokic getting to the WCF with Murray performing the way he did isn't all that impressive.

To beat the Clippers, who were title favorites going into 2nd round, to get to the WCF:

Murray: 22.5 / 4.4 / 6.4 on 44.7% shooting
Jokic: 24.4 / 13.4 / 6.5 on 51.5% shooting

Huge carry job by Murray, obvi.

To put it into perspective, Embiid's THIRD option (Maxey) was putting up 20ppg on better shooting last year in the series to get them to WCF (they lost to Heat).

If Murray's 22.5 on 44.7% shooting is considered "performing the way he did", then what's Embiid's excuse for losing to the Heat, given he had Maxey 'performing the way he did'? They lost two in Miami without him, and the one he did play in Miami was a 35 point beatdown, and then in the clouseout game he shot 24x and made 29% of his field goals...

None of this makes any sense to me haha. The one time Jokic has a teammate that plays like an all star in the playoffs, he makes it to the WCF. But that is now a negative for him because he had a teammate play like an all star in the playoffs. To kind of put things into perspective

Jamal's averages in the bubble

26/5/6 on 62 TS% (really really good)

here are some other notable (second options) over the past few years
AD: 27/9/3 on 66 TS%
Take your pick between KD/Curry during their run
Kyrie is top 10 all time in career finals PPG. He's averaging 27/4/4 on 47/39/92 shooting in his career in the Finals.

And some of the recent championship teams that didnt have super stud #2 option. They had a very good 2-3 combo. Whether that's Milwaukee with Middleton/Jrue combo. Or TOR with the Lowry/Siakam combo. The original GS run with the Draymond/Klay combo.

Guess what you kind of need help when it comes to the playoffs. Jokic got it 1 time so far and he made it to the WCF, where he just happened to face LeBron and his #2 in AD who was having an even better playoffs than Murray.

[bisme37]

I'm just glad noted Jokic booster eyeatoma insisted I make a new poll so Nikola could get his due respect.

[SOA]

The bubble is the biggest asterisk ever. Without crowds, it is the equivalent of practice.

[Exp0sed]

The comp I always had was Dirk+ Bird… doesn’t seem too far fetched right now lol. His volume and shot selection is incredible (along with a whole bunch of other things on offence). Dirk shot more from midrange but just sub in Jokic’s 3pt shots.

Jokic is easily a top ten offensive player all time once his career is done. Not everyday you find a one man system in a center.

Dirk shot more from the mid-range because he couldn't do whatJokic can down low

he was an insane shooter accuracy wise coupled with his stature and release made it unguardable and left it down to his awesome shooting - which was great

However if he could muscle his way in with strength AND finesse \ footwork \ i.q to a layup or an automatic floater he can hit at 60%+ he would def do that more and shoot 16 ft. fadeaways less

Jokic is scoring inside in a dominant manner AND is hitting his mid range shots at an unreal clip (albeit due to incredible shot selection coupled with great and consistent shooting)

that's kinda wild

[DCasey91]

The comp I always had was Dirk+ Bird… doesn’t seem too far fetched right now lol. His volume and shot selection is incredible (along with a whole bunch of other things on offence). Dirk shot more from midrange but just sub in Jokic’s 3pt shots.

Jokic is easily a top ten offensive player all time once his career is done. Not everyday you find a one man system in a center.

Dirk shot more from the mid-range because he couldn't do whatJokic can down low

he was an insane shooter accuracy wise coupled with his stature and release made it unguardable and left it down to his awesome shooting - which was great

However if he could muscle his way in with strength AND finesse \ footwork \ i.q to a layup or an automatic floater he can hit at 60%+ he would def do that more and shoot 16 ft. fadeaways less

Jokic is scoring inside in a dominant manner AND is hitting his mid range shots at an unreal clip (albeit due to incredible shot selection coupled with great and consistent shooting)

that's kinda wild

Yeah it must be the arching shot at the elbow/trail that reminds me most of Dirk lol. Jokic has hit some crazy midrange shots throughout his career. With more emphasis on the 3 ball Dirk would be even more potent today.

Don’t have a comp for his inside big man play hmmm let’s see

McHale (sick moves close to the rim the twirl special) + Dirk + Bird then in a Marc Gasol body? Sweet got it haha

[ty 4191]

As was previously noted, Jokic's career FG% from 5-10 feet is an (astounding) .572 (1649 FGA).

Since 1996-1997, min 1000 FGA, here are some other leaders among players who were primarily (or exclusively) centers.

-Nikola Jokic: .572
-Jonas Valančiūnas: .499
-Karl-Anthony Towns: .485
-Rik Smits: .479
-Robin Lopez: .476
-Hakeem Olajuwon: .473
-Brook Lopez: .459
-Nikola Vučević: .456
-Yao Ming: .453
-Alonzo Mourning:
-Marc Gasol: .446
-Tim Duncan: .430
-Shaquille O'Neal: .421
-Dikembe Mutombo: .419
-Dwight Howard: .397
-Andre Drummond: .382

(PS: As another frame of reference, Giannis shoots .341 (!!) from 5-10 feet.)

If you look at all players with 1000 FGA from 5-10 feet the past 26 years, this puts Jokic's Z Score at +4.2 (standard deviations above the mean). That is 99.973rd percentile!!

As a frame of reference, Wilt scored 40.6 PPG from 1959-1960 through 1964-1965. Oscar was second with 31.1 ppg. Wilt's Z Score for PPG was "only" 3.09 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 10000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 17 PPG, FWIW.

Rodman's TRB% 1991-1992 through 1997-1998 was a staggering 26.0%. Shawn Kemp was a (very) distant second at 19.0%. Rodman's Z Score was "only" 2.85 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 15000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 11.2% TRB%.

(So, yes... I totally agree with you Bob; Jokic's playmaking and passing are his greatest assets, however, his shooting and shot selection are also unprecedented in modern NBA History.)

PS: Jokic is also third (among all players) since 1996-1997 on FG% from 10-15 feet among all players with 800 FGA. .482 FG%

Notables:
Durant: .473
Curry: .470
Nowitzki: .468
Nash: .466
Garnett: .453
Olajuwon: .447
Jordan: .442
Ray Allen: .430
Kobe: .430
Embiid: .423
Duncan: .406
Reggie Miller: .397
Ewing: .396
Karl Malone: .377
Giannis: .373
Shaq: .314 (last, out of 182 players with 800 FGA)

The comp I always had was Dirk+ Bird… doesn’t seem too far fetched right now lol. His volume and shot selection is incredible (along with a whole bunch of other things on offence). Dirk shot more from midrange but just sub in Jokic’s 3pt shots.

Jokic is easily a top ten offensive player all time once his career is done. Not everyday you find a one man system in a center.

He's already easily a top ten offensive player all time. Why? Well, how many guys have averaged 20/10/6 on +7 rTS, career? Only Bird clocks in at 24/10/6, but on only +3 rTS%.

How many guys have peaked for 3 seasons at 26.8/12.1/8.1? It's 190 games, including the playoffs. It's a very legit sample size.

The only guy to peak (like this, all around) offensively for 2-3 seasons was Oscar Robertson (61'-63'), and he was playing literally 10 MPG more than Jokic has the last 3 seasons. And, 25 more possessions per game on those Royals teams vs. the Nuggets pace the last 3 years.

[ty 4191]

I'm just glad noted Jokic booster eyeatoma insisted I make a new poll so Nikola could get his due respect.

Funniest post I've seen here in a LONG time!!!

[eyeatoma]

I'm just glad noted Jokic booster eyeatoma insisted I make a new poll so Nikola could get his due respect.

Lol

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[eyeatoma]

The bubble is the biggest asterisk ever. Without crowds, it is the equivalent of practice.

Yup Mickey mouse chip.

Mickey mouse WCF appearance.

Tons of players were shooting way over their career fg%.

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[SOA]

Just to put a little something in perspective. It would take Jokic nearly 70 years of playing ball to shoot the same number of midrange shots that Dirk shot in his 20 year career. If you throw in free throws as well, then it would probably be closer to 75 years.

The sheer volume is insane.

(Edited because my math was still a little off.)

[Cubbies2120]

The bubble is the biggest asterisk ever. Without crowds, it is the equivalent of practice.

Yup Mickey mouse chip.

Mickey mouse WCF appearance.

Tons of players were shooting way over their career fg%.

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Embiid had his best shooting playoffs + most minutes played that year (in the first 3 playoff appearances). Pity he couldn't get them at least ONE win...I don't wanna hear an excuse "b-but his #2 was missing!" because remember, Sixers fans downplayed the importance of #2 and #3 in the MVP race last year

[Cubbies2120]

I'm just glad noted Jokic booster eyeatoma insisted I make a new poll so Nikola could get his due respect.

And the voting poll result looks like a middle finger too

[Lockdown504090]

trae helping the pacers more than haliburton, wow.

[bradybunch]

Luka.

Close thread.