Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

[sammo89]

I think MJ is the goat...but really it doesn’t matter at this point....the nba and Nike crowded MJ the goat...forever...

and Lebron not overcoming that marketing.

And the public has spoken...people that never saw MJ play think he is better than Lebron just because

It’s engrained like Lincoln or Washington the greatest President- no one else need to apply

Example of how big MJ is....MJ and Nike still selling his retro sneakers at raffles online and lebrons sitting on shelves at footlocker...

That’s a new generation of MJ loyalist that vote MJ regardless of facts...when we kinda all know Wilt the goat lol

i mean, Jordan sneakers just look better, than any of the countless Lebrons.

The “panda 1s” dropping at 10 am tomorrow on snkrs- playoff 13s dropped too...but man that’s a lot of selling to people born after his last shot with even the wizards.

MJ is a degenerate gambling, smoking, team mate punching @-hole with narcissist tendencies...that no one would really consider a friend BUT he has the best marketing on earth...I mean in the solar system...can’t knock the hustle -

Lebrons marketing is great...MJs MARKETING is the GOAT for sure

Lol, upvoted just because I've never seen that slander angle before

[michaelm]

LMAO! You know who also lead the league in steals for 3 years? Allen Iverson. He must be a top tier defender.

I thought people only used steals to judge defensive prowess as a joke now a days? Is that what you were doing?

So leading the league in steals is not impressive to you? Ok man! You gonna answer my question about Jordan ever colluding with other star players? Your avoiding that huh? Again you have your right to your opinion. Im not changing your and your not changing mine.

You do realize the 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8). Jordan didn't collude because he had no reason to, and even then, before the Bulls added Rodman to an already loaded cast, Jordan actually was trying to collude with Ewing and was about to join the Knicks who had just lost the nba finals in 7 games.

I'll get to the other stuff later, but uhh, I don't think this really holds up. Jordan was completely willing to bail when convenient, and his teams were loaded in a way none of Lebron's were(Miami was 40-win without, cavs were 20 win-without, 2nd stint were 20-30ish wins without depending on what you use)

Those were different days admittedly when moving teams in your prime was not really done, but you pay your money and you take your choice as they say. That MJ's teams were better might just have had something to do with MJ. He allowed the Bulls GM to build a team around him, Pippen developed next to him and he accepted having a previous bitter rival in Rodman on his team for a start, and while he had a great coach he allowed that guy to coach him, acceding to the triangle offense which took the ball out of his hands to a significant degree, fairly grudgingly I gather. He made Phil Jackson as much as Phil Jackson made him.

LeBron absolutely should have left the Cavs the first time, they were an incompetent organisation who wasted his talent for those many years. Since then he has had significant control over the rosters he plays with and who coaches those rosters, probably more than any player in NBA history including MJ. If he chooses to trade young prospects for win now players at the getgo it should hardly be surprising if the team starts to look worn around the edges in the 4th year. Kyrie Irving also decided he didn't like playing with Lebron which is one reason that 2018 team was weak, but in retrospect that was just Kyrie being Kyrie and Lebron can't be blamed for that.

LeBron is fairly definitely the GOAT floor raiser imo though, I doubt MJ even gets that 2018 team or the Cavs team in LeBron's first stint there very far in the play-offs let alone to the finals or to title wins with those teams.

[twyzted]

I'm gonna repeat what I said because it's still true, after a bunch of pages of discussion:

I have no dog in this fight, but arguments wise, LeBron advocates are doing a much better job than Jordan ones on average.

Instead of resorting to ad hominems (you just hate Jordan), refuting points right before making them themselves (Jordan trying to collude? He never went forward with it, that point is invalid. Except I'm gonna use it to attack LeBron for trying to collude with Kawhi) and using anecdotal examples (1 game proves that the Bulls were not stacked), maybe the Jordan supporters should want to put forward convincing arguments towards MJ. Of which there are many, I'm sure of that.

If a smart group of individuals who never watched basketball were to read this thread, they would be convinced that LeBron has in fact better arguments impact wise for being the GOAT. And that's due to the poor job being done by the pro-MJ crowd, not because MJ was actually worse.

I just wish some of the more knowledgeable pro-Jordan posters saw this thread and decided to contribute. The debate level would rise, instead of devolving into repeating platitudes that have no relevance in the impact discussion. Respecting the guy who "stuck around and won with the franchise that drafted him" is all well and good, but that doesn't make MJ more impactful.

Stop baiting. For the first 8 pages there is no one making case for either.

We get the classic lines
“Jordan didnt win without Pippen”
“Jordan is lucky he didnt play now because social media”

Then we get one guy coming in rambling about how he has been summoned.
Then pastes link to other discussion in other boards. Then writes an essay with his oppinion about how Jordan isnt better.
Posts no stats to back him up.

I refute all his points, back it up with numbers but no answer.

He then replies to another poster and revises history.

Again gets refuted.

And somehow you think Lebron stans make a better case. Not only that you also insult the ones making a case for Jordan as not knowledgable.

Also im gonna add if 60%+ of people think Jordan is the goat and 25% lebron.
There is no need to make compelling argument for Jordan

[Salieri]

Stop baiting. For the first 8 pages there is no one making case for either.

I promise you, I'm not baiting anyone. I'm giving my honest opinion. You're welcome to disagree with me if you think pro-Jordan posters are making a better case than pro-LeBron ones. I just don't see it.

We get the classic lines
“Jordan didnt win without Pippen”
“Jordan is lucky he didnt play now because social media”

It's interesting that you feel the need to compile the amateur takes favoring LeBron, but completely dismiss the ones favoring Jordan. And there have been quite a few, I'm sure you'll agree. Do you think yours is an honest, objective summary of the thread? Are you sure you're not being influenced by your own subjective perspective when trying to paint the thread as only a bunch of casual opinions defending LeBron?

Then we get one guy coming in rambling about how he has been summoned.
Then pastes link to other discussion in other boards. Then writes an essay with his oppinion about how Jordan isnt better.
Posts no stats to back him up.

Here you can have all the stats you can't find in this thread (and you know it because you've participated in that thread): viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921

It's only logical that posters don't wanna copy and paste the same stuff, especially when the posts are so lengthy. And by the way, I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying those are very good arguments. Credit where credit is due.

I refute all his points, back it up with numbers but no answer.

I've seen you reply, yes. Refuting is too strong a word, let's just say that your post merits an answer. Maybe copying it in the other thread? I encourage you to keep participating in that thread (in less hostile tone if possible) because some of us are greatly enjoying the insight and the deep analysis. I would never participate in that thread -or the PC board in general- because I don't have the expertise to blend in and not stick out like a sore thumb. But I do enjoy reading that subforum, and every new perspective will be welcomed.

And somehow you think Lebron stans make a better case. Not only that you also insult the ones making a case for Jordan as not knowledgable.

I think LeBron advocates are making a better case here, yes. Not everywhere, but in this thread. And forgive me if you felt insulted, but please don't misconstrue my words: nowhere did I say that pro-Jordan posters are less knowledgeable. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite: that there are some VERY knowledgeable posters out there who favor Jordan and they could make their case much better than I ever could.

What I said is that the arguments towards Jordan are, on average, more of the casual type (rings, one team, undefeated in the finals, scoring titles, etc). If you're not making such points, you shouldn't feel that my words were directed at you.

Also im gonna add if 60%+ of people think Jordan is the goat and 25% lebron.
There is no need to make compelling argument for Jordan

That's one way to look at it, certainly. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

I could poke a few holes in that reasoning, for example pointing out that you'd be making the case that Drake is a better musician than Bach because his sales are much bigger. Are you comfortable defending that notion? Because if you're not, tread lightly when defending the notion that popular consensus is the ultimate judge on these kind of things.

Still, it's a perspective worth taking into account. I would feel more comfortable thinking that my criteria hasn't been imposed on me via peer pressure, but I can't deny it's a thing. And it counts, yes.

[MavsDirk41]

Stop baiting. For the first 8 pages there is no one making case for either.

I promise you, I'm not baiting anyone. I'm giving my honest opinion. You're welcome to disagree with me if you think pro-Jordan posters are making a better case than pro-LeBron ones. I just don't see it.

We get the classic lines
“Jordan didnt win without Pippen”
“Jordan is lucky he didnt play now because social media”

It's interesting that you feel the need to compile the amateur takes favoring LeBron, but completely dismiss the ones favoring Jordan. And there have been quite a few, I'm sure you'll agree. Do you think yours is an honest, objective summary of the thread? Are you sure you're not being influenced by your own subjective perspective when trying to paint the thread as only a bunch of casual opinions defending LeBron?

Then we get one guy coming in rambling about how he has been summoned.
Then pastes link to other discussion in other boards. Then writes an essay with his oppinion about how Jordan isnt better.
Posts no stats to back him up.

Here you can have all the stats you can't find in this thread (and you know it because you've participated in that thread): viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921

It's only logical that posters don't wanna copy and paste the same stuff, especially when the posts are so lengthy. And by the way, I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying those are very good arguments. Credit where credit is due.

I refute all his points, back it up with numbers but no answer.

I've seen you reply, yes. Refuting is too strong a word, let's just say that your post merits an answer. Maybe copying it in the other thread? I encourage you to keep participating in that thread (in less hostile tone if possible) because some of us are greatly enjoying the insight and the deep analysis. I would never participate in that thread -or the PC board in general- because I don't have the expertise to blend in and not stick out like a sore thumb. But I do enjoy reading that subforum, and every new perspective will be welcomed.

And somehow you think Lebron stans make a better case. Not only that you also insult the ones making a case for Jordan as not knowledgable.

I think LeBron advocates are making a better case here, yes. Not everywhere, but in this thread. And forgive me if you felt insulted, but please don't misconstrue my words: nowhere did I say that pro-Jordan posters are less knowledgeable. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite: that there are some VERY knowledgeable posters out there who favor Jordan and they could make their case much better than I ever could.

What I said is that the arguments towards Jordan are, on average, more of the casual type (rings, one team, undefeated in the finals, scoring titles, etc). If you're not making such points, you shouldn't feel that my words were directed at you.

Also im gonna add if 60%+ of people think Jordan is the goat and 25% lebron.
There is no need to make compelling argument for Jordan

That's one way to look at it, certainly. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

I could poke a few holes in that reasoning, for example pointing out that you'd be making the case that Drake is a better musician than Bach because his sales are much bigger. Are you comfortable defending that notion? Because if you're not, tread lightly when defending the notion that popular consensus is the ultimate judge on these kind of things.

Still, it's a perspective worth taking into account. I would feel more comfortable thinking that my criteria hasn't been imposed on me via peer pressure, but I can't deny it's a thing. And it counts, yes.

How about we end this thread with everybody has their opinion and is entitled to their opinion? I disagree with you because i havent seen anything pro james that jumps out to me anymore than any post with pro jordan stats or opinions. The poll favored jordan and nobody is changing their opinion regardless of what you or I say. You say you have no dog in the fight but not sure i believe it. You seem pretty intent on making your point about james fans being so much more convincing for a guy who “doesnt care”

[Taj FTW]

Stop baiting. For the first 8 pages there is no one making case for either.

I promise you, I'm not baiting anyone. I'm giving my honest opinion. You're welcome to disagree with me if you think pro-Jordan posters are making a better case than pro-LeBron ones. I just don't see it.

We get the classic lines
“Jordan didnt win without Pippen”
“Jordan is lucky he didnt play now because social media”

It's interesting that you feel the need to compile the amateur takes favoring LeBron, but completely dismiss the ones favoring Jordan. And there have been quite a few, I'm sure you'll agree. Do you think yours is an honest, objective summary of the thread? Are you sure you're not being influenced by your own subjective perspective when trying to paint the thread as only a bunch of casual opinions defending LeBron?

Then we get one guy coming in rambling about how he has been summoned.
Then pastes link to other discussion in other boards. Then writes an essay with his oppinion about how Jordan isnt better.
Posts no stats to back him up.

Here you can have all the stats you can't find in this thread (and you know it because you've participated in that thread): viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921

It's only logical that posters don't wanna copy and paste the same stuff, especially when the posts are so lengthy. And by the way, I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying those are very good arguments. Credit where credit is due.

I refute all his points, back it up with numbers but no answer.

I've seen you reply, yes. Refuting is too strong a word, let's just say that your post merits an answer. Maybe copying it in the other thread? I encourage you to keep participating in that thread (in less hostile tone if possible) because some of us are greatly enjoying the insight and the deep analysis. I would never participate in that thread -or the PC board in general- because I don't have the expertise to blend in and not stick out like a sore thumb. But I do enjoy reading that subforum, and every new perspective will be welcomed.

And somehow you think Lebron stans make a better case. Not only that you also insult the ones making a case for Jordan as not knowledgable.

I think LeBron advocates are making a better case here, yes. Not everywhere, but in this thread. And forgive me if you felt insulted, but please don't misconstrue my words: nowhere did I say that pro-Jordan posters are less knowledgeable. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite: that there are some VERY knowledgeable posters out there who favor Jordan and they could make their case much better than I ever could.

What I said is that the arguments towards Jordan are, on average, more of the casual type (rings, one team, undefeated in the finals, scoring titles, etc). If you're not making such points, you shouldn't feel that my words were directed at you.

Also im gonna add if 60%+ of people think Jordan is the goat and 25% lebron.
There is no need to make compelling argument for Jordan

That's one way to look at it, certainly. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

I could poke a few holes in that reasoning, for example pointing out that you'd be making the case that Drake is a better musician than Bach because his sales are much bigger. Are you comfortable defending that notion? Because if you're not, tread lightly when defending the notion that popular consensus is the ultimate judge on these kind of things.

Still, it's a perspective worth taking into account. I would feel more comfortable thinking that my criteria hasn't been imposed on me via peer pressure, but I can't deny it's a thing. And it counts, yes.

How about we end this thread with everybody has their opinion and is entitled to their opinion? I disagree with you because i havent seen anything pro james that jumps out to me anymore than any post with pro jordan stats or opinions. The poll favored jordan and nobody is changing their opinion regardless of what you or I say. You say you have no dog in the fight but not sure i believe it. You seem pretty intent on making your point about james fans being so much more convincing for a guy who “doesnt care”

He's not wrong. You used leading the league in steals 3 seasons to justify Jordan's great defense. AI led the league in steals 3 years. How do you feel about his defense?

[MavsDirk41]

I promise you, I'm not baiting anyone. I'm giving my honest opinion. You're welcome to disagree with me if you think pro-Jordan posters are making a better case than pro-LeBron ones. I just don't see it.



It's interesting that you feel the need to compile the amateur takes favoring LeBron, but completely dismiss the ones favoring Jordan. And there have been quite a few, I'm sure you'll agree. Do you think yours is an honest, objective summary of the thread? Are you sure you're not being influenced by your own subjective perspective when trying to paint the thread as only a bunch of casual opinions defending LeBron?



Here you can have all the stats you can't find in this thread (and you know it because you've participated in that thread): viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921

It's only logical that posters don't wanna copy and paste the same stuff, especially when the posts are so lengthy. And by the way, I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying those are very good arguments. Credit where credit is due.



I've seen you reply, yes. Refuting is too strong a word, let's just say that your post merits an answer. Maybe copying it in the other thread? I encourage you to keep participating in that thread (in less hostile tone if possible) because some of us are greatly enjoying the insight and the deep analysis. I would never participate in that thread -or the PC board in general- because I don't have the expertise to blend in and not stick out like a sore thumb. But I do enjoy reading that subforum, and every new perspective will be welcomed.



I think LeBron advocates are making a better case here, yes. Not everywhere, but in this thread. And forgive me if you felt insulted, but please don't misconstrue my words: nowhere did I say that pro-Jordan posters are less knowledgeable. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite: that there are some VERY knowledgeable posters out there who favor Jordan and they could make their case much better than I ever could.

What I said is that the arguments towards Jordan are, on average, more of the casual type (rings, one team, undefeated in the finals, scoring titles, etc). If you're not making such points, you shouldn't feel that my words were directed at you.



That's one way to look at it, certainly. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

I could poke a few holes in that reasoning, for example pointing out that you'd be making the case that Drake is a better musician than Bach because his sales are much bigger. Are you comfortable defending that notion? Because if you're not, tread lightly when defending the notion that popular consensus is the ultimate judge on these kind of things.

Still, it's a perspective worth taking into account. I would feel more comfortable thinking that my criteria hasn't been imposed on me via peer pressure, but I can't deny it's a thing. And it counts, yes.

How about we end this thread with everybody has their opinion and is entitled to their opinion? I disagree with you because i havent seen anything pro james that jumps out to me anymore than any post with pro jordan stats or opinions. The poll favored jordan and nobody is changing their opinion regardless of what you or I say. You say you have no dog in the fight but not sure i believe it. You seem pretty intent on making your point about james fans being so much more convincing for a guy who “doesnt care”

He's not wrong. You used leading the league in steals 3 seasons to justify Jordan's great defense. AI led the league in steals 3 years. How do you feel about his defense?

I would say he focused on defense 2000 - 2003 so props to AI! Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Ben Simmons, Oladipo, and Dejounte Murray are some other players who led the nba in steals. Are they not considered good defenders?

[zimpy27]

Yeah the pro-jordan GOAT crowd need to up their analysis. Analytics are only going to grow with time and the analytics crowd seem to back LeBron for now

[Taj FTW]

How about we end this thread with everybody has their opinion and is entitled to their opinion? I disagree with you because i havent seen anything pro james that jumps out to me anymore than any post with pro jordan stats or opinions. The poll favored jordan and nobody is changing their opinion regardless of what you or I say. You say you have no dog in the fight but not sure i believe it. You seem pretty intent on making your point about james fans being so much more convincing for a guy who “doesnt care”

He's not wrong. You used leading the league in steals 3 seasons to justify Jordan's great defense. AI led the league in steals 3 years. How do you feel about his defense?

I would say he focused on defense 2000 - 2003 so props to AI! Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Ben Simmons, Oladipo, and Dejounte Murray are some other players who led the nba in steals. Are they not considered good defenders?

Lmao come on bro. You honestly think AI was a good defender those years based on steals?

[OhayoKD]

Stop baiting. For the first 8 pages there is no one making case for either.

I promise you, I'm not baiting anyone. I'm giving my honest opinion. You're welcome to disagree with me if you think pro-Jordan posters are making a better case than pro-LeBron ones. I just don't see it.

We get the classic lines
“Jordan didnt win without Pippen”
“Jordan is lucky he didnt play now because social media”

It's interesting that you feel the need to compile the amateur takes favoring LeBron, but completely dismiss the ones favoring Jordan. And there have been quite a few, I'm sure you'll agree. Do you think yours is an honest, objective summary of the thread? Are you sure you're not being influenced by your own subjective perspective when trying to paint the thread as only a bunch of casual opinions defending LeBron?

Then we get one guy coming in rambling about how he has been summoned.
Then pastes link to other discussion in other boards. Then writes an essay with his oppinion about how Jordan isnt better.
Posts no stats to back him up.

Here you can have all the stats you can't find in this thread (and you know it because you've participated in that thread): viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921

It's only logical that posters don't wanna copy and paste the same stuff, especially when the posts are so lengthy. And by the way, I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying those are very good arguments. Credit where credit is due.

I refute all his points, back it up with numbers but no answer.

I've seen you reply, yes. Refuting is too strong a word, let's just say that your post merits an answer. Maybe copying it in the other thread? I encourage you to keep participating in that thread (in less hostile tone if possible) because some of us are greatly enjoying the insight and the deep analysis. I would never participate in that thread -or the PC board in general- because I don't have the expertise to blend in and not stick out like a sore thumb. But I do enjoy reading that subforum, and every new perspective will be welcomed.

And somehow you think Lebron stans make a better case. Not only that you also insult the ones making a case for Jordan as not knowledgable.

I think LeBron advocates are making a better case here, yes. Not everywhere, but in this thread. And forgive me if you felt insulted, but please don't misconstrue my words: nowhere did I say that pro-Jordan posters are less knowledgeable. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite: that there are some VERY knowledgeable posters out there who favor Jordan and they could make their case much better than I ever could.

What I said is that the arguments towards Jordan are, on average, more of the casual type (rings, one team, undefeated in the finals, scoring titles, etc). If you're not making such points, you shouldn't feel that my words were directed at you.

Also im gonna add if 60%+ of people think Jordan is the goat and 25% lebron.
There is no need to make compelling argument for Jordan

That's one way to look at it, certainly. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

I could poke a few holes in that reasoning, for example pointing out that you'd be making the case that Drake is a better musician than Bach because his sales are much bigger. Are you comfortable defending that notion? Because if you're not, tread lightly when defending the notion that popular consensus is the ultimate judge on these kind of things.

Still, it's a perspective worth taking into account. I would feel more comfortable thinking that my criteria hasn't been imposed on me via peer pressure, but I can't deny it's a thing. And it counts, yes.

How about we end this thread with everybody has their opinion and is entitled to their opinion? I disagree with you because i havent seen anything pro james that jumps out to me anymore than any post with pro jordan stats or opinions. The poll favored jordan and nobody is changing their opinion regardless of what you or I say. You say you have no dog in the fight but not sure i believe it. You seem pretty intent on making your point about james fans being so much more convincing for a guy who “doesnt care”

Saleri described and explained why he thought one side made better points. Twysted made a bunch of claims with no support beyond the fact that I haven't replied to them yet(even though I literally just replied to them in PC). Going at Saleri is just odd tbh

[MavsDirk41]

He's not wrong. You used leading the league in steals 3 seasons to justify Jordan's great defense. AI led the league in steals 3 years. How do you feel about his defense?

I would say he focused on defense 2000 - 2003 so props to AI! Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Ben Simmons, Oladipo, and Dejounte Murray are some other players who led the nba in steals. Are they not considered good defenders?

Lmao come on bro. You honestly think AI was a good defender those years based on steals?

I think if a player leads the league in steals for 3 years they are doing something right. Like i said good for AI.

[MavsDirk41]

I promise you, I'm not baiting anyone. I'm giving my honest opinion. You're welcome to disagree with me if you think pro-Jordan posters are making a better case than pro-LeBron ones. I just don't see it.



It's interesting that you feel the need to compile the amateur takes favoring LeBron, but completely dismiss the ones favoring Jordan. And there have been quite a few, I'm sure you'll agree. Do you think yours is an honest, objective summary of the thread? Are you sure you're not being influenced by your own subjective perspective when trying to paint the thread as only a bunch of casual opinions defending LeBron?



Here you can have all the stats you can't find in this thread (and you know it because you've participated in that thread): viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921

It's only logical that posters don't wanna copy and paste the same stuff, especially when the posts are so lengthy. And by the way, I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying those are very good arguments. Credit where credit is due.



I've seen you reply, yes. Refuting is too strong a word, let's just say that your post merits an answer. Maybe copying it in the other thread? I encourage you to keep participating in that thread (in less hostile tone if possible) because some of us are greatly enjoying the insight and the deep analysis. I would never participate in that thread -or the PC board in general- because I don't have the expertise to blend in and not stick out like a sore thumb. But I do enjoy reading that subforum, and every new perspective will be welcomed.



I think LeBron advocates are making a better case here, yes. Not everywhere, but in this thread. And forgive me if you felt insulted, but please don't misconstrue my words: nowhere did I say that pro-Jordan posters are less knowledgeable. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite: that there are some VERY knowledgeable posters out there who favor Jordan and they could make their case much better than I ever could.

What I said is that the arguments towards Jordan are, on average, more of the casual type (rings, one team, undefeated in the finals, scoring titles, etc). If you're not making such points, you shouldn't feel that my words were directed at you.



That's one way to look at it, certainly. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

I could poke a few holes in that reasoning, for example pointing out that you'd be making the case that Drake is a better musician than Bach because his sales are much bigger. Are you comfortable defending that notion? Because if you're not, tread lightly when defending the notion that popular consensus is the ultimate judge on these kind of things.

Still, it's a perspective worth taking into account. I would feel more comfortable thinking that my criteria hasn't been imposed on me via peer pressure, but I can't deny it's a thing. And it counts, yes.

How about we end this thread with everybody has their opinion and is entitled to their opinion? I disagree with you because i havent seen anything pro james that jumps out to me anymore than any post with pro jordan stats or opinions. The poll favored jordan and nobody is changing their opinion regardless of what you or I say. You say you have no dog in the fight but not sure i believe it. You seem pretty intent on making your point about james fans being so much more convincing for a guy who “doesnt care”

Saleri described and explained why he thought one side made better points. Twysted made a bunch of claims with no support beyond the fact that I haven't replied to them yet(even though I literally just replied to them in PC). Going at Saleri is just odd tbh

Lol i didnt go at him man i just disagree with him. Like i said earlier, nobody is changing anybodys mind on here. We all have our opinion for various reasons and thats a good thing. Your goat criteria might be different than mine. Like i said there will never be a consensus.

[Salieri]

Lol i didnt go at him man

You kinda did when you doubted my claim that I have no dog in this fight, and hinted I was just pretending to not care.

But that's okay. I've been said worse and it didn't mess my hairdo, this time's not gonna be different.

One friendly piece of advice, though:

If you consider the matter closed, then maybe the best approach is to stop contributing to the thread. But when you insist on everyone leaving the status quo alone and you propose ending the thread as it is, it sounds a bit like a tactical retreat for lack of rhetorical ammo: better retreat than be defeated, so you're calling in the troops in your side to let it go. Gotta say, it doesn't surprise me if your points have foundations as strong as "AI was leader in steals so he must have been a good defender". Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Camby the DPOY?

[VanWest82]

There have been so many GOAT debates on RealGM and they all go the same. MJ gets voted as #1 by overwhelming majority. People cite all the usual stuff. He won the most (other than Bill). He has the most accolades. He was a two way player, consistently top 3-5 in DPOY conversations. He was a closer, a killer. He more than passed the eye test.

Then the anti-MJ brigade jumps in. Usually very pro-Lebron with some level of sophistication in their views. It so often focuses on playoffs only because that makes Lebron look better. There's selective emphasis on things like "how Lebron did vs. top defenses." They bring adj +/- impact metrics because that's something we have data for in the Lebron era. Pro-MJ people are asked to provide impact metrics for their guy. They can't because we don't have line up or pbp data for his era. Anti-MJ brigade disingenuously cites lack of drop off in 94 as proof he wasn't that valuable. Oh well, I guess Lebron wins then.

We've hit a point in these debates where things like All Defense and DPOY voting are considered meaningless. Team success isn't reliable either. MJ is considered a worse leader than Lebron or Kareem because he punched a teammate omce even though Kareem wasn't the leader of his team and Lebron frequently tries to trade his teammates. Guys improving on MJ's teams to become all nba players isn't relevant.

MJ isn't as impactul because he gave up the ball to empower Scottie. Lebron is more impactful because he's allowed to directly control more of the gameflow on the court, leaving his teams rudderless when he's not. Sacrfice isn't rewarded. Excuses are made if teammates don't fit in with a heliocentric style.

It ocurrs to me that the reason the pro-MJ arguments aren't as good is 1. because he's been so far ahead for so long, the people who think he was the best didn't feel like spending time attacking any challengers with more than an eye roll, and 2. the terms of the debate have been set in a way to limit the defense of MJ or any pre-data ball guy's case.

That said, if you want a pro-MJ plus/minus impact stat analysis, it goes something like this: Lebron has been #1 in RAPM only three times in his career (09, 10, 13). Per squared's partial season calculations - he only has 85, 88, 91, 96 partially done in Jordan's years - MJ ranked top 5 in 85, #1 in 88, #1, in 91, and #1 in 96. We know he was #1 in 97 as well. It would be very surprising if MJ wasn't #1 in 92 given Bulls record, and I'm betting he was probably close if not #1 in 89, 90, and 93 given these were all prime years with two of those years being higher in ball dominance (hence likely bigger drop off when he sat). How do we not conclude that MJ had Lebron beat as an adjusted plus/minus king as well based on that?...on top of everything else. At some point, the evidence gets pretty overwhelming unless you're doing a longevity argument or pretending like regular season doesn't matter (except for longevity).

[MavsDirk41]

Lol i didnt go at him man

You kinda did when you doubted my claim that I have no dog in this fight, and hinted I was just pretending to not care.

But that's okay. I've been said worse and it didn't mess my hairdo, this time's not gonna be different.

One friendly piece of advice, though:

If you consider the matter closed, then maybe the best approach is to stop contributing to the thread. But when you insist on everyone leaving the status quo alone and you propose ending the thread as it is, it sounds a bit like a tactical retreat for lack of rhetorical ammo: better retreat than be defeated, so you're calling in the troops in your side to let it go. Gotta say, it doesn't surprise me if your points have foundations as strong as "AI was leader in steals so he must have been a good defender". Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Camby the DPOY?

I have plenty of reasons for jordan over james in the goat debate and im not calling in the troops because i feel defeated and what not lol. I just dont see this going anywhere but how about this - i am old enough to have watched both careers and i have jordan over james. My favorite player before Dirk was Bird so im not even a jordan guy, i just think he is the best player ive ever seen. Thats it man.

[OhayoKD]

You are correct regarding Jordan and the Knicks. I also appreciate you disagreeing civilly.

You do realize the 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8).

I'll get to the other stuff later, but uhh, I don't think this really holds up. Jordan was completely willing to bail when convenient, and his teams were loaded in a way none of Lebron's were(Miami was 40-win without, cavs were 20 win-without, 2nd stint were 20-30ish wins without depending on what you use)

Simply looking at 57 wins in 93 and 55 wins in 94 dramatically undersells how much better they were with Jordan.

You're missing context here(Pippen and Grant missing games). The Bulls at full strength were much better than their SRS would suggest(+4.7 vs +2) and they elevated in the postseason(+8.9). Quoting a poster more knowledgable than me...

The 94 bulls actually had a +8.9 postseason srs which is almost the same as their 93 season+10 post season srs (+1 difference)

The 94 bulls also missed 20 combined games from their two stars and played a +4.7 srs when healthy in the regular season (+1.5 difference with the 93 bulls with jordan) and in a very generous best case scenario a (+5.3 difference with even the 92 bulls regular season)

If i average the 94 bulls (+4.7 at full strenght in regular season and +8.9 in playoffs) vs the 92 reg season + 93 playoffs combination draymomd used (and please notice i am already picking and choosing the parts that help jordan more) the gap is only 5 points

That is not goat level.

Even by you guys own approach as it is below other all time greats lift in either absolute terms or in "ceiling raising" situations

To do a short TLDR here, even if were to disregard 1993 RS and replace it with 1992(best regular season score from the first-threepeat, matches 1993 playoffs which the Bulls allegedly coasted for), when we take the teams at full strength, Jordan's "lift" comes well short of "GOAT' candidates, even in off-years(Rookie Kareem, 2015 Lebron without kyrie and love).

It's also hard to sell 1994 as a fluke, because the following year, coming off 5 deep playoff runs, the Bulls without their best and 3rd player were still very good:

In 1995, with key cog Horace Grant lost to Orlando (and Ron Harper aboard), a healthy Bulls team still played at a 52-win pace (3.8 SRS) with an rORtg of +1.1 before Michael Jordan returned.
:

People focus on the-wait, hold the thought:

So there is no way a team that has 52% winning record a"fter 80% of the season is playing at a 53 win pace unless ofcourse you add the greatest player to your team. They wouldve ended at 42-43 wins if Jordan didnt come back.

^^^^ cope

Anyway...while people focus on the Bulls taking the Knicks to 7, the Bulls were also impressive in the first round,sweeping a team who's playoff lineup(accounting for injury and Price missing time) posted a 53-win pace(by record, +5.8! net differential but it's against below average comp). All considered the Bulls were very good without Jordan, and I'd even venture to say the difference isn't as big as you think.

[mysticOscar]

You are correct regarding Jordan and the Knicks. I also appreciate you disagreeing civilly.

Simply looking at 57 wins in 93 and 55 wins in 94 dramatically undersells how much better they were with Jordan.

You're missing context here(Pippen and Grant missing games). The Bulls at full strength were much better than their SRS would suggest(+4.7 vs +2) and they elevated in the postseason(+8.9). Quoting a poster more knowledgable than me...

The 94 bulls actually had a +8.9 postseason srs which is almost the same as their 93 season+10 post season srs (+1 difference)

The 94 bulls also missed 20 combined games from their two stars and played a +4.7 srs when healthy in the regular season (+1.5 difference with the 93 bulls with jordan) and in a very generous best case scenario a (+5.3 difference with even the 92 bulls regular season)

If i average the 94 bulls (+4.7 at full strenght in regular season and +8.9 in playoffs) vs the 92 reg season + 93 playoffs combination draymomd used (and please notice i am already picking and choosing the parts that help jordan more) the gap is only 5 points

That is not goat level.

Even by you guys own approach as it is below other all time greats lift in either absolute terms or in "ceiling raising" situations

To do a short TLDR here, even if were to disregard 1993 RS and replace it with 1992(best regular season score from the first-threepeat, matches 1993 playoffs which the Bulls allegedly coasted for), when we take the teams at full strength, Jordan's "lift" comes well short of "GOAT' candidates, even in off-years(Rookie Kareem, 2015 Lebron without kyrie and love).

It's also hard to sell 1994 as a fluke, because the following year, coming off 5 deep playoff runs, the Bulls without their best and 3rd player were still very good:

In 1995, with key cog Horace Grant lost to Orlando (and Ron Harper aboard), a healthy Bulls team still played at a 52-win pace (3.8 SRS) with an rORtg of +1.1 before Michael Jordan returned.
:

People focus on the-wait, hold the thought:

So there is no way a team that has 52% winning record a"fter 80% of the season is playing at a 53 win pace unless ofcourse you add the greatest player to your team. They wouldve ended at 42-43 wins if Jordan didnt come back.

^^^^ cope

Anyway...while people focus on the Bulls taking the Knicks to 7, the Bulls were also impressive in the first round,sweeping a team who's playoff lineup(accounting for injury and Price missing time) posted a 53-win pace(by record). All considered the Bulls were very good without Jordan, and I'd even venture to say the difference isn't as big as you think.

Don't u get tired by scooping at the bottom of the barrel to downplay Jordan?

It's just a tired old argument and trying make the most out of the '94 season when anybody with common sense knows that '93 season the team was coming back from a succesful b2b rings and were coasting....while the '94 team with had great solid additions and had something to prove.

It's just so convenient in every argument the creative logic that anti MJ fans love to cook up (if we just take a third of Jordan's games and strapilate and minus this player and add a drizzle of pepper then and then season it with a comparison of a incomplete playoff vs a complete playoff and wala...the numbers dont look that good for MJ).

Saying that MJ doesn't provide the lift that GOAT level does...what pipe are you smoking....I want some.

The guy lifted the team to 2 3peats with pretty much a different casts outside of Pippen.

Of course the Bulls team were a good team outside of Jordan....that's why historically they are regarded as one if not the greatest team / dynasty in the NBA and basically dominated almost a decade of the NBA.

Not one player can provide that level of dominance without a solid team behind him and a good coach / system.

There's only so much you can continue to deny that he had little to do with his success and how much his skillset enabled and empowered the system that Phil employed.

If your definition of goat lift is how much a player can lift a crappy team if wins...then don't look at the 90s Bulls. They are not your team.

The 1st 3peat organically grew and developed to a well oiled machine when they got to there 1st 3peat.

And the 2nd 3peat is a group of experienced veterans that meshed well together.

But yeah let's just not give Mj credit for any of that since sticking around and helping team develop to an oiled machined or mashing old players together always = 3peats.

[OhayoKD]

You are correct regarding Jordan and the Knicks. I also appreciate you disagreeing civilly.

You're missing context here(Pippen and Grant missing games). The Bulls at full strength were much better than their SRS would suggest(+4.7 vs +2) and they elevated in the postseason(+8.9). Quoting a poster more knowledgable than me...

The 94 bulls actually had a +8.9 postseason srs which is almost the same as their 93 season+10 post season srs (+1 difference)

The 94 bulls also missed 20 combined games from their two stars and played a +4.7 srs when healthy in the regular season (+1.5 difference with the 93 bulls with jordan) and in a very generous best case scenario a (+5.3 difference with even the 92 bulls regular season)

If i average the 94 bulls (+4.7 at full strenght in regular season and +8.9 in playoffs) vs the 92 reg season + 93 playoffs combination draymomd used (and please notice i am already picking and choosing the parts that help jordan more) the gap is only 5 points

That is not goat level.

Even by you guys own approach as it is below other all time greats lift in either absolute terms or in "ceiling raising" situations

To do a short TLDR here, even if were to disregard 1993 RS and replace it with 1992(best regular season score from the first-threepeat, matches 1993 playoffs which the Bulls allegedly coasted for), when we take the teams at full strength, Jordan's "lift" comes well short of "GOAT' candidates, even in off-years(Rookie Kareem, 2015 Lebron without kyrie and love).

It's also hard to sell 1994 as a fluke, because the following year, coming off 5 deep playoff runs, the Bulls without their best and 3rd player were still very good:

In 1995, with key cog Horace Grant lost to Orlando (and Ron Harper aboard), a healthy Bulls team still played at a 52-win pace (3.8 SRS) with an rORtg of +1.1 before Michael Jordan returned.
:

People focus on the-wait, hold the thought:

So there is no way a team that has 52% winning record a"fter 80% of the season is playing at a 53 win pace unless ofcourse you add the greatest player to your team. They wouldve ended at 42-43 wins if Jordan didnt come back.

^^^^ cope

Anyway...while people focus on the Bulls taking the Knicks to 7, the Bulls were also impressive in the first round,sweeping a team who's playoff lineup(accounting for injury and Price missing time) posted a 53-win pace(by record). All considered the Bulls were very good without Jordan, and I'd even venture to say the difference isn't as big as you think.

It's just a tired old argument and trying make the most out of the '94 season when anybody with common sense knows that '93 season the team was coming back from a succesful b2b rings and were coasting

Which is why falco used the 92 regular season.

Saying that MJ doesn't provide the lift that GOAT level does...what pipe are you smoking

Subtraction. 10-5 = 5. Crazy, I know.

The problem(for you) is the 1994 Bulls were also coasting. Hence why they were at +8 in the po's while their rs versions were at +5. Or, in "mystic-oscar speak": they were very good in the regular season when they tried, they were really really good in the postseason when they really really tried. Hope that helps!

[mysticOscar]

You are correct regarding Jordan and the Knicks. I also appreciate you disagreeing civilly.

You're missing context here(Pippen and Grant missing games). The Bulls at full strength were much better than their SRS would suggest(+4.7 vs +2) and they elevated in the postseason(+8.9). Quoting a poster more knowledgable than me...

To do a short TLDR here, even if were to disregard 1993 RS and replace it with 1992(best regular season score from the first-threepeat, matches 1993 playoffs which the Bulls allegedly coasted for), when we take the teams at full strength, Jordan's "lift" comes well short of "GOAT' candidates, even in off-years(Rookie Kareem, 2015 Lebron without kyrie and love).

It's also hard to sell 1994 as a fluke, because the following year, coming off 5 deep playoff runs, the Bulls without their best and 3rd player were still very good:

People focus on the-wait, hold the thought:

^^^^ cope

Anyway...while people focus on the Bulls taking the Knicks to 7, the Bulls were also impressive in the first round,sweeping a team who's playoff lineup(accounting for injury and Price missing time) posted a 53-win pace(by record). All considered the Bulls were very good without Jordan, and I'd even venture to say the difference isn't as big as you think.

It's just a tired old argument and trying make the most out of the '94 season when anybody with common sense knows that '93 season the team was coming back from a succesful b2b rings and were coasting

Which is why falco used the 92 regular season.

Saying that MJ doesn't provide the lift that GOAT level does...what pipe are you smoking

Subtraction. 10-5 = 5. Crazy, I know.

The problem(for you) is the 1994 Bulls were also coasting. Hence why they were at +8 in the po's while their rs versions were at +5. Or, in "mystic-oscar speak": they were very good in the regular season when they tried, they were really really good in the postseason when they really really tried. Hope that helps!

Are you really quoting and evaluating '94 SRS based on 2 playoff series... 1st vs an injury depleted cavs and 2nd rd playoff series that they eventually lost?

You can pretend to be unbiased or whatever...but it's apparant your analysis reek of bias

[OhayoKD]

Which is why falco used the 92 regular season.

Subtraction. 10-5 = 5. Crazy, I know.

The problem(for you) is the 1994 Bulls were also coasting. Hence why they were at +8 in the po's while their rs versions were at +5. Or, in "mystic-oscar speak": they were very good in the regular season when they tried, they were really really good in the postseason when they really really tried. Hope that helps!

Are you really quoting and evaluating '94 SRS based on 2 playoff series...

Misty try to read challenge:

The 94 bulls also missed 20 combined games from their two stars and played a +4.7 srs when healthy in the regular season

1st vs an injury depleted cavs

Misty try to read challenge(again):

sweeping a team who's playoff lineup(accounting for injury and Price missing time) posted a 53-win pace(by record, +5.8! net differential but it's against below average comp)

Just quit while you're behind my guy