Gold Medalist Questions the NBA Champs Being Deemed "World" Champs

Invictus88 · Post #281 » by **Invictus88** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:37 pm

Man the offseason sucks when folks are willing to fight tooth and nail over something like this.

For those wanting to nitpick this: If you had to dub the team most likely to be the best team in the world in the absence of a club-level tournament spanning all of the leagues in existence who would you choose? Oh right. It's the NBA champion.... :roll:

JonFromVA · Post #282 » by **JonFromVA** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:37 pm

Dirk wrote:The NBA Champs can only be crowned World Champs if they beat Shane Larkin and Eddy Tavares.

More seriously, it'd be cool if the NBA/FIBA worked out a small tournament where teams played together in some real games. The whole "World Champs" moniker is silly, even if the NBA Champs are probably far an away better than the Euroleague Champs.

Seems more likely they'll figure out a way to add teams overseas, but you know, the rest of the world needs to come up to snuff first and it takes time to build a fan base that can fund a professional team worthy of the NBA.

JonFromVA · Post #283 » by **JonFromVA** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:40 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:The NBA plays in the US and Canada, but it is truly a world league consisting of the best players from around the world. Until this changes, I see nothing wrong with random 3rd parties using this term. As far as I know the NBA itself does not.

The FIBA/Olympic championships are just an exhibition meant to help popularize the sport wrapped around each nation's flag to fool people in to caring about it. If all we had were national teams and they played together full time and got their salary from the competitions, it would be something else, but it's not.

We already have posts in this very thread showing that yes, the NBA calls it's league champions the "world champions".

Every last example comes from a team, not the league, not nba.com.

JonFromVA · Post #284 » by **JonFromVA** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:41 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
There IS a world club championship for professional basketball teams. The NBA simply refuses to play at it. And it's not even really about what is relevant or not in 2023 either, since it has actually been around since the 1960s.

The NBA isn't a club.

The NBA champions are a professional sports club. And yes, that term "sports club" is used all over the world, including the United States, to refer to professional sports teams. The NBA refuses to send the NBA champions to the official world sports club championship of professional basketball teams, the FIBA Intercontinental Cup, which meets every single criteria you have laid out of your own personal view of what would make an actual world club championship. FIBA Intercontinental Cup is literally what you described yourself. And it has existed since the 1960s, so it's not at all in way actually a new concept like you are claiming.

Therefore, officially, the NBA champions are not the "world champions".

We have baseball clubs, but NBA teams.... 8-)

HeartBreakKid · Post #285 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:41 pm

I mean the NBA is free to call themselves the world champions...that's how sports promotions work. It isn't relevant if the Nuggets do not play Euroleague or Chinese teams.

Whether they are recognized as such is up to the individual. But it is rather obvious that the best team in the NBA is the best basketball club in the world. So this is kind of just some guys waking up one day and realizing the "N" in NBA stands for national and some other sematic argument.

"WAIT, THE UFC CHAMPION DOESNT FIGHT THE BELLATOR CHAMPION. HOW DARE THESE ORGS CALL THEIR TITLES THE WORLD TITLE!"

Post #286 » by **MoneyTalks41890** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:44 pm

Invictus88 wrote:Man the offseason sucks when folks are willing to fight tooth and nail over something like this.

For those wanting to nitpick this: If you had to dub the team most likely to be the best team in the world in the absence of a club-level tournament spanning all of the leagues in existence who would you choose? Oh right. It's the NBA champion....

And the NBA would have the next 29 best choices.

JonFromVA · Post #287 » by **JonFromVA** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:46 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:No, the NBA doesn't meet the minimum requirements for a world championship.

The minimum requirement for a world championship in a team sport is that it includes teams from every continent. The NBA doesn't. It only includes teams from two nations and a single continent. The NBA is a continental championship, not a world championship.

That doesn't mean that the NBA Champion isn't the best basketball club in the world, of course. They absolutely are. And if a world championship for high-level club basketball existed, NBA teams would 100% dominate that championship and win 98% of the time. It's only because such a championship doesn't exist that the NBA Champion cannot accurately be called a World Champion.

No one is disputing that the NBA is the best basketball league in the world. It quite simply isn't the whole world on its own. No single country or continent is the whole world on its own.

1978:

Maccabi Tel Aviv (4th placed EuroLeague team) 98
Washington Bullets (NBA champions) 97

The 4th placed EuroLeague team beat the NBA champions by 1 point.

1995:

Houston Rockets (NBA champions) 126
Virtus Bologna (eliminated in EuroLeague quarterfinals) 112

The NBA champions beat a EuroLeague quarterfinalist by 14 points.

1997:

Chicago Bulls (NBA champions) 89
Paris Saint Germain (lost in the semifinals of Europe's 2nd tier league, the European Cup) 82

The NBA champions beat a semifinalist from the second tier European league by 7 points.

1997:

Chicago Bulls (NBA champions) 104
Olympiacos Piraeus (EuroLeague champions) 78

The NBA champions beat the EuroLeague champions by 26 points.

1999:

San Antonio Spurs (NBA champions) 96
Varese (eliminated in the first group stage of EuroLeague, with a losing record) 86

The NBA champions beat one of the worst teams of the EuroLeague, by 10 points.

2007:

San Antonio Spurs (NBA champions) 113
Panathinaikos Athens (EuroLeague champions) 91

The NBA champions beat the EuroLeague champions by 22 points.

2010:

FC Barcelona (EuroLeague champions) 92
Los Angeles Lakers (NBA champions) 88

The EuroLeague champions beat the NBA champions by 4 points.

It's a relatively small sample size of 7 games, but obviously there is absolutely no way in hell that the NBA champions could ever actually win 98% of the time against the EuroLeague champions. The winning percentage wouldn't be anything even remotely near that.

Surely you're not counting meaningless pre-season exhibition games where the only goal for the NBA players is to get some cardio in and not to get hurt?

Post #288 » by **MoneyTalks41890** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:47 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:I mean the NBA is free to call themselves the world champions...that's how sports promotions work. It isn't relevant if the Nuggets do not play Euroleague or Chinese teams.

Whether they are recognized as such is up to the individual. But it is rather obvious that the best team in the NBA is the best basketball club in the world. So this is kind of just some guys waking up one day and realizing the "N" in NBA stands for national and some other sematic argument.

"WAIT, THE UFC CHAMPION DOESNT FIGHT THE BELLATOR CHAMPION. HOW DARE THESE ORGS CALL THEIR TITLES THE WORLD TITLE!"

Next you’re going to try to tell me Hugh Jackman didn’t really have the Greatest Show on Earth…

Post #289 » by **MoneyTalks41890** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:49 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:No, the NBA doesn't meet the minimum requirements for a world championship.

The minimum requirement for a world championship in a team sport is that it includes teams from every continent. The NBA doesn't. It only includes teams from two nations and a single continent. The NBA is a continental championship, not a world championship.

That doesn't mean that the NBA Champion isn't the best basketball club in the world, of course. They absolutely are. And if a world championship for high-level club basketball existed, NBA teams would 100% dominate that championship and win 98% of the time. It's only because such a championship doesn't exist that the NBA Champion cannot accurately be called a World Champion.

No one is disputing that the NBA is the best basketball league in the world. It quite simply isn't the whole world on its own. No single country or continent is the whole world on its own.

1978:

Maccabi Tel Aviv (4th placed EuroLeague team) 98
Washington Bullets (NBA champions) 97

The 4th placed EuroLeague team beat the NBA champions by 1 point.

1995:

Houston Rockets (NBA champions) 126
Virtus Bologna (eliminated in EuroLeague quarterfinals) 112

The NBA champions beat a EuroLeague quarterfinalist by 14 points.

1997:

Chicago Bulls (NBA champions) 89
Paris Saint Germain (lost in the semifinals of Europe's 2nd tier league, the European Cup) 82

The NBA champions beat a semifinalist from the second tier European league by 7 points.

1997:

Chicago Bulls (NBA champions) 104
Olympiacos Piraeus (EuroLeague champions) 78

The NBA champions beat the EuroLeague champions by 26 points.

1999:

San Antonio Spurs (NBA champions) 96
Varese (eliminated in the first group stage of EuroLeague, with a losing record) 86

The NBA champions beat one of the worst teams of the EuroLeague, by 10 points.

2007:

San Antonio Spurs (NBA champions) 113
Panathinaikos Athens (EuroLeague champions) 91

The NBA champions beat the EuroLeague champions by 22 points.

2010:

FC Barcelona (EuroLeague champions) 92
Los Angeles Lakers (NBA champions) 88

The EuroLeague champions beat the NBA champions by 4 points.

It's a relatively small sample size of 7 games, but obviously there is absolutely no way in hell that the NBA champions could ever actually win 98% of the time against the EuroLeague champions. The winning percentage wouldn't be anything even remotely near that.

Surely you're not counting meaningless pre-season exhibition games where the only goal for the NBA players is to get some cardio in and not to get hurt?

That’s very funny actually. Because those games illustrate the point. The other teams are trying as hard as possible because they know they are playing against the best teams while NBA teams treat it like a scrimmage.

AussieCeltic · Post #290 » by **AussieCeltic** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:25 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
1978:

Maccabi Tel Aviv (4th placed EuroLeague team) 98
Washington Bullets (NBA champions) 97

The 4th placed EuroLeague team beat the NBA champions by 1 point.

1995:

Houston Rockets (NBA champions) 126
Virtus Bologna (eliminated in EuroLeague quarterfinals) 112

The NBA champions beat a EuroLeague quarterfinalist by 14 points.

1997:

Chicago Bulls (NBA champions) 89
Paris Saint Germain (lost in the semifinals of Europe's 2nd tier league, the European Cup) 82

The NBA champions beat a semifinalist from the second tier European league by 7 points.

1997:

Chicago Bulls (NBA champions) 104
Olympiacos Piraeus (EuroLeague champions) 78

The NBA champions beat the EuroLeague champions by 26 points.

1999:

San Antonio Spurs (NBA champions) 96
Varese (eliminated in the first group stage of EuroLeague, with a losing record) 86

The NBA champions beat one of the worst teams of the EuroLeague, by 10 points.

2007:

San Antonio Spurs (NBA champions) 113
Panathinaikos Athens (EuroLeague champions) 91

The NBA champions beat the EuroLeague champions by 22 points.

2010:

FC Barcelona (EuroLeague champions) 92
Los Angeles Lakers (NBA champions) 88

The EuroLeague champions beat the NBA champions by 4 points.

It's a relatively small sample size of 7 games, but obviously there is absolutely no way in hell that the NBA champions could ever actually win 98% of the time against the EuroLeague champions. The winning percentage wouldn't be anything even remotely near that.

Surely you're not counting meaningless pre-season exhibition games where the only goal for the NBA players is to get some cardio in and not to get hurt?

That’s very funny actually. Because those games illustrate the point. The other teams are trying as hard as possible because they know they are playing against the best teams while NBA teams treat it like a scrimmage.

Bro, you said the G-League Ignite would beat any non NBA team, I think you should sit this one out. You clearly have zero idea of what you’re talking about.

TMac Culloch · Post #291 » by **TMac Culloch** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:29 pm

If you're really going to attack this point I think you start with Baseball and "the world series"

But as well all know, best teams in the world in both leagues

ChumboChappati · Post #292 » by **ChumboChappati** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:36 pm

Fadeaway_Jumper wrote:Soccer Clubs like Barcelona & Real Madrid assemble the best talent in the world and are usually better than any other club in the world, but don’t call themselves world champions when they win.

It’s an American center of the universe way of thinking

True and we can see it in this thread trying to badmouth a fellow American just because he speaks a truth we don't like. :nonono:

Post #293 » by **Nuntius** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:37 pm

AussieCeltic wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Surely you're not counting meaningless pre-season exhibition games where the only goal for the NBA players is to get some cardio in and not to get hurt?

That’s very funny actually. Because those games illustrate the point. The other teams are trying as hard as possible because they know they are playing against the best teams while NBA teams treat it like a scrimmage.

Bro, you said the G-League Ignite would beat any non NBA team, I think you should sit this one out. You clearly have zero idea of what you’re talking about.

Indeed, that was a freaking hilarious comment. It really showcases the level of jingoism that we're talking about here.

Post #294 » by **Nuntius** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:42 pm

robbie84 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
robbie84 wrote:

No, the number one team in the NBA wouldn't beat the best Olympic teams, they'd absolutely melt them.

Isn't team USA the favorite to get the gold in the Olympics? Does that mean that the Nuggets would absolutely melt team USA?

The quote I'm responding to is *probably* referring to all non USA teams. Nuntius, if you're reading this, do you mean other than the USA?

I don't think that there's any reason to think that the quote you're responding to refers to any non-US team. They said best Olympic team and team USA is the favorite. So, logically it does include them as well.

Now, it is definitely possible that Denver does manage to beat team USA (chemistry does matter, especially in single-elimination formats) but absolutely melting them is a bit of a stretch. Team USA should still be the favorite over the NBA Champion.

Post #295 » by **MoneyTalks41890** » Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:57 pm

Nuntius wrote:
AussieCeltic wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
That’s very funny actually. Because those games illustrate the point. The other teams are trying as hard as possible because they know they are playing against the best teams while NBA teams treat it like a scrimmage.

Bro, you said the G-League Ignite would beat any non NBA team, I think you should sit this one out. You clearly have zero idea of what you’re talking about.

Indeed, that was a freaking hilarious comment. It really showcases the level of jingoism that we're talking about here.

No it’s just a commentary on how much better the NBA system is, including it’s farm team. The best players from around the world are willing to play in the G league to get to the NBA.

Scoot/Jenkins/Mojave/Leonard Miller/Mika

Beat Wemby in an exhibition and lost the 2nd game because Scoot got hurt. And Wemby is Wemby and is worlds better than any player outside the league right now. And also where does he play now?

Again the point is the disparity is massive. Which team outside the NBA beats that team in say a 7 game series? Their youth is a problem but that team definitely has more talent.

The Ignite thing started as hyperbolic but I think it’s a better point than the alternative, that any team outside the NBA could hang with an NBA team.

AussieCeltic · Post #296 » by **AussieCeltic** » Tue Aug 29, 2023 12:05 am

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
AussieCeltic wrote:
Bro, you said the G-League Ignite would beat any non NBA team, I think you should sit this one out. You clearly have zero idea of what you’re talking about.

Indeed, that was a freaking hilarious comment. It really showcases the level of jingoism that we're talking about here.

No it’s just a commentary on how much better the NBA system is, including it’s farm team. The best players from around the world are willing to play in the G league to get to the NBA.

You… you really gave zero idea my man. Any G-League team would be destroyed by Euro and NBL teams. It wouldn’t even be close.

Also Australian NBL had more players drafted to the league last year than G-League.

AussieCeltic · Post #297 » by **AussieCeltic** » Tue Aug 29, 2023 12:08 am

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
AussieCeltic wrote:
Bro, you said the G-League Ignite would beat any non NBA team, I think you should sit this one out. You clearly have zero idea of what you’re talking about.

Indeed, that was a freaking hilarious comment. It really showcases the level of jingoism that we're talking about here.

No it’s just a commentary on how much better the NBA system is, including it’s farm team. The best players from around the world are willing to play in the G league to get to the NBA.

Scoot/Jenkins/Mojave/Leonard Miller/Mika

Beat Wemby in an exhibition and lost the 2nd game because Scoot got hurt. And Wemby is Wemby and is worlds better than any player outside the league right now. And also where does he play now?

Again the point is the disparity is massive. Which team outside the NBA beats that team in say a 7 game series? Their youth is a problem but that team definitely has more talent.

The Ignite thing started as hyperbolic but I think it’s a better point than the alternative, that any team outside the NBA could hang with an NBA team.

Mojave couldn’t even get on the court in the NBL which is why he went to G-League ignite.

Post #298 » by **MoneyTalks41890** » Tue Aug 29, 2023 12:22 am

AussieCeltic wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
Indeed, that was a freaking hilarious comment. It really showcases the level of jingoism that we're talking about here.

No it’s just a commentary on how much better the NBA system is, including it’s farm team. The best players from around the world are willing to play in the G league to get to the NBA.

You… you really gave zero idea my man. Any G-League team would be destroyed by Euro and NBL teams. It wouldn’t even be close.

Also Australian NBL had more players drafted to the league last year than G-League.

The Ignite alone had four guys get drafted how many NBL guys? You’re also making the broader point here about how desirable it is to get into the NBA system.

AussieCeltic · Post #299 » by **AussieCeltic** » Tue Aug 29, 2023 12:38 am

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
AussieCeltic wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
No it’s just a commentary on how much better the NBA system is, including it’s farm team. The best players from around the world are willing to play in the G league to get to the NBA.

You… you really gave zero idea my man. Any G-League team would be destroyed by Euro and NBL teams. It wouldn’t even be close.

Also Australian NBL had more players drafted to the league last year than G-League.

The Ignite alone had four guys get drafted how many NBL guys? You’re also making the broader point here about how desirable it is to get into the NBA system.

Last year the NBL had 4 guys drafted and G-League had 3.

We’re deviating from the point anyway. The fact is, unless the NBA champ of that season wins a tournament against champions of other leagues, they can’t be called World champs. Sure they’ll be favourites but as we know, favourites don’t always win otherwise what’s the point of playing.

I would absolutely hate it if the AFL in Australia called our grand final winners the “world champs” even though no one else would even come close to beating them.

There’s a big world outside of the US you know.

Also want to reiterate that your first point of saying G-League Ignite would beat any team outside of the NBA is probably the worst take on this board ever. And that’s saying something

Post #300 » by **MoneyTalks41890** » Tue Aug 29, 2023 12:45 am

AussieCeltic wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
AussieCeltic wrote:
You… you really gave zero idea my man. Any G-League team would be destroyed by Euro and NBL teams. It wouldn’t even be close.

Also Australian NBL had more players drafted to the league last year than G-League.

The Ignite alone had four guys get drafted how many NBL guys? You’re also making the broader point here about how desirable it is to get into the NBA system.

Last year the NBL had 4 guys drafted and G-League had 3.

We’re deviating from the point anyway. The fact is, unless the NBA champ of that season wins a tournament against champions of other leagues, they can’t be called World champs. Sure they’ll be favourites but as we know, favourites don’t always win otherwise what’s the point of playing.

I would absolutely hate it if the AFL in Australia called our grand final winners the “world champs” even though no one else would even come close to beating them.

There’s a big world outside of the US you know.

The point I think folks are trying to get across is that this isn’t about the US, it’s the fact that the NBA has the best teams there are no teams competitive with NBA teams that are outside of the NBA. The best Euro league team starts guys who flunked out of the NBA. This isn’t the case for other sports leagues other places who don’t have all of the best teams in the world in one league. I don’t know much about the AFL but I don’t think you can say it has all the best football teams in the world.

The whole “world champs” thing is marketing language for the NBA but it’s the worst possible sport/league to choose to try to make the point about not being able to say that.