Special_Puppy wrote:EmpireFalls wrote:slick_watts wrote:
when people say 'advanced defensive stats', nobody means boxscore metrics like dbpm or defensive win shares, which are both useless. they mean apm based defensive metrics, usually.
That’s news to me. For the vast majority of Jokic fans, PER, BPM, and WS are the only statistics available. Oh, and of course net on-off (thanks DeAndre!) The box score derivative GOAT.
I am sensing that in general some of your more "hostile" comments towards Jokic are due to annoyance at his stans
That's really my only issue. I have had Jokic as my MVP the last 4 seasons and thus the BITW since at least the 2023 season (2021 and 2022 I wouldn't say he was clearly the best).
Jokic mania suggesting that he is the GREATEST PEAK EVER having the GREATEST SEASON EVER however has gone overboard.
It combines 3 aspects of fandom I really dislike : a) misuse of statistics, b) lack of standards and baseline consistency, and c) player tribalism and personal attacks.
a) While Jokic does have great stats by any respect, his playstyle as well as the era we play in gives his stats inflated values that break the rudimentary BPM/WS models. Effectively there are some metrics that present him as by far the best ever, which needs context, which is never brought up, of course. This is the highest scoring, most efficient halfcourt era of all time, of course the best player would be more efficient and rack up more assists than previous playmakers did. However none of the previous great playmakers were centers which breaks the BPM/VORP/WS model, and yet, this is exactly what is frequently cited in favour of him. In essence I'm not even arguing against Jokic but against statistics being misused maliciously.
What almost no Jokic supporter will do is admit that in almost every APM metric, he was matched or even outdone by a healthy Embiid and SGA in just the last two seasons alone. They pivot to BPM instead.
So you end up hearing arguments saying 'Jokic is the best and it isn't even close' - which is almost always based upon a dangerous misuse of rudimentary counting statistics.
b) last year it was impact stats and winning that gave Jokic the edge over Luka (and to a lesser extent SGA).
In 2021 and 2022 it wasn't about winning. Then it was again in 2023 and 2024. This year though it's 'omg he averages triple double' and 'Nuggets suck Thunder stacked so it doesn't count'. Which brings me to my next point...
c) Jokic fans more than any other player attack his teammates as if they are cancers to basketball. Every missed shot of Porter or Murray is proof that each are an overpaid, overrated bum who can't do anything right. Now, I understand this is true of a lot of fanbases (especially LeBron's), but what separates the Jokic fanbase is that they also go on the attack to discredit other players. If SGA has 40 points, it's 'all foul baiting'. When Embiid was on his run, it was 'flopping and cheating'.
Jokic is having an amazing season worthy of MVP and greatest peak consideration. However, he is not having the best peak ever, and certainly not 'clearly having the best season' even this year, let alone all time.
