The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Tomjas]

First off, my statements have not been proven false.

Simmons 0% from 3 point line.
Simmons for a guard, is a horrible free throw shooter.
Simmons is one of the leaders in turnovers for all rookies. This one is more misleading becasue he has the ball in his hand for more possessions then other rookies.

With these three true statements above, I will state what you all think I don't agree with. Ben Simmons is the best rookie that I have ever seen besides Lebron James and will win the ROY award. He is great at multi facets of the game but he has work to do in the above mentioned areas. Until he develops an outside shot he will not get the love that you all want to give him as a top 10 player.

Here in Utah we all love Donovan Mitchell, we are all enjoying how much enjoyment and passion he has brought to what we all were thinking was going to be a very long season.

We can all talk about his faults, but at the same time, we all believe that he will learn from this season and come back even better next year. He has two things going for him, first and most important is his attiude and how that allows him to approach the game. The second one is we have a very good coaching staff, that we have a lot of trust in, every young player gets better here if there are willing to put in the practice (think opposite of Lyles).

Sorry I got so many of you riled up but to be true fans I believe you need to be critical of your success as well. Don't see much of that going on here.

Peace to all.

As a Philly fan, some of what you say is definitely true

Simmons is a poor ft shooter and that, more than anything else, is what he needs to address

If he gets to be at least average (and for a guy of his talent, it should be a given), it would make a big difference to not only his own game but to the team as well

As it stands, it’s a big weakness in his game that can be targeted in certain circumstances

[Jazz Dog]

The numbers: First he hasn't shot a single 3 pointer this year, the attempts you see in the stat sheet are all full court heaves at the end of quarter/half. And he's shooting 56% from the FT line--that's not great obviously but statistically that's the same as shooting 56% from the field, which is pretty solid end of game option. And over the last two months he's averaged 10.4 assists to 2.7 TOs.

It is unclear to me how anyone can say that 56% is pretty solid at the free throw line, 56% is horrible, especially for a guard. Good grief.

[HotelVitale]

The numbers: First he hasn't shot a single 3 pointer this year, the attempts you see in the stat sheet are all full court heaves at the end of quarter/half. And he's shooting 56% from the FT line--that's not great obviously but statistically that's the same as shooting 56% from the field, which is pretty solid end of game option. And over the last two months he's averaged 10.4 assists to 2.7 TOs.

It is unclear to me how anyone can say that 56% is pretty solid at the free throw line, 56% is horrible, especially for a guard. Good grief.

It is unclear to me how anyone can fail to understand how a 56% shot is a pretty good option on offense. Please try to keep up with the points being made instead of throwing around 'horrible' and 'awful.'

[Hipster Doofus]

Sixers fans, my friends, no need to argue anymore. Really. The player, the stats, the effect he has on the games, the effect on the tempo of the games, the total control of the games, they all speak for themselves. He's a maestro already, plain and simple. And he's a rookie.

No need to argue over minute details and minute statistics. Everything speaks for itself.

It's like being a billionaire, and having to convince others that you're a billionaire. You don't have to say "well, I own a plane" or "I own three private islands and have mansions in four continents."

The amount of money speaks for itself without having to mention specific things. Just like the amount of "game" speaks for itself without having to mention a single thing

[downtownpie]

First off, my statements have not been proven false.

Simmons 0% from 3 point line.
Simmons for a guard, is a horrible free throw shooter.
Simmons is one of the leaders in turnovers for all rookies. This one is more misleading becasue he has the ball in his hand for more possessions then other rookies.

With these three true statements above, I will state what you all think I don't agree with. Ben Simmons is the best rookie that I have ever seen besides Lebron James and will win the ROY award. He is great at multi facets of the game but he has work to do in the above mentioned areas. Until he develops an outside shot he will not get the love that you all want to give him as a top 10 player.

Here in Utah we all love Donovan Mitchell, we are all enjoying how much enjoyment and passion he has brought to what we all were thinking was going to be a very long season.

We can all talk about his faults, but at the same time, we all believe that he will learn from this season and come back even better next year. He has two things going for him, first and most important is his attiude and how that allows him to approach the game. The second one is we have a very good coaching staff, that we have a lot of trust in, every young player gets better here if there are willing to put in the practice (think opposite of Lyles).

Sorry I got so many of you riled up but to be true fans I believe you need to be critical of your success as well. Don't see much of that going on here.

Peace to all.

All 76er fans acknowledge simmons has to get a shot. There's no denial.

Its different to jazz fans who ignore how many shots mitchell puts up or they ignore Gobert and claim mitchell carries the team.

Lets be true fans eh?

[phifans]

People still debate on DM Vs Ben ?

I think there is a more intersting conversation on who is a better scorer between Mitchell and Kuzma ?

[bebopdeluxe]

I would like to know what more Ben could have done last night to end this debate. He gave you EVERYTHING.

Tempo. Anticipation (the 40-foot lob to Holmes). Style...both scoring and assisting.

In the Sixers biggest game since the EC Semis Game 7 against Boston in 2012...missing their best player against THE best player...with playoff seeding and manhood on the line, he delivered.

I know that Donovan Mitchell is a great player. He really is. The fact that, IMO, Simmons is better is no slight to DM. Others can disagree (and I still invite their statistical/analytical case), and I respect that...but last night Simmons showed why he is the ROY.

(not that he cares about that...just like he doesn’t care that Dragic was an All-Star...the kid’s goals are higher)

[nurseryc]

If Simmons was American I believe this debate would be over. Cant help but think that Simmons being an Aussie is working against him in this situation!

[Tabasco]

It is unclear to me how anyone can say that 56% is pretty solid at the free throw line, 56% is horrible, especially for a guard. Good grief.

It is unclear to me how anyone can fail to understand how a 56% shot is a pretty good option on offense. Please try to keep up with the points being made instead of throwing around 'horrible' and 'awful.'

What are you even talking about? Free throws aren't the same as regular field goals. 56% is on par with Shaq's career average. There's a reason teams would hack-a-Shaq. And it wasn't because poor free throw shooting is a good option on offense. What a brain dead post.

[michaelm]

It is unclear to me how anyone can say that 56% is pretty solid at the free throw line, 56% is horrible, especially for a guard. Good grief.

It is unclear to me how anyone can fail to understand how a 56% shot is a pretty good option on offense. Please try to keep up with the points being made instead of throwing around 'horrible' and 'awful.'

What are you even talking about? Free throws aren't the same as regular field goals. 56% is on par with Shaq's career average. There's a reason teams would hack-a-Shaq. And it wasn't because poor free throw shooting is a good option on offense. What a brain dead post.

Absolutely no-one denies his FT% could stand improvement, but as I understand it 56% is still not bad enough to make fouling a player all game a statistically sound practice. He also has a tendency to be better with his free throws in the clutch.

The time the opposing team (the Wizards iirc) did go full hack-a-Ben he ended up scoring 30 points and winning the game for the Sixers.

[CoreyGallagher]

56% free throw shooting is still 1.12 ppp. Same efficiency as 56% from 2p, and 34% from 3p.

Why drawing fouls is such an invaluable skill.

[commentatorer]

Wade liked handling the ball a lot but he never struck me as pass-first nor was he a Point Guard.
Simmons is 100% pure Point Guard with pass-first instincts.
If LeBron comes to Philly, he will have to adapt to Simmons.
Simmons has no obligation to change, because Simmons is 100% pure Point Guard.
I don't think LeBron is versatile enough to play off-the-ball, so I don't think he should come to Philly.
Go to the Lakers and take Lonzo Ball's ball.

So that I understand what you are saying...

Your point is that LeBron James - to many people (not you, but other basketball observers) one of the top 3-to-5 players in NBA history - is not “versatile enough to play off the ball”?

That is your position?

Ummm...I disagree.

LeBron has never proven that he can play off the ball regularly, always been a failure in that regard.
And with his size and supposed coordination he should have been a great post-up player, but failed to be.

[nurseryc]

Wade liked handling the ball a lot but he never struck me as pass-first nor was he a Point Guard.
Simmons is 100% pure Point Guard with pass-first instincts.
If LeBron comes to Philly, he will have to adapt to Simmons.
Simmons has no obligation to change, because Simmons is 100% pure Point Guard.
I don't think LeBron is versatile enough to play off-the-ball, so I don't think he should come to Philly.
Go to the Lakers and take Lonzo Ball's ball.

So that I understand what you are saying...

Your point is that LeBron James - to many people (not you, but other basketball observers) one of the top 3-to-5 players in NBA history - is not “versatile enough to play off the ball”?

That is your position?

Ummm...I disagree.

LeBron has never proven that he can play off the ball regularly, always been a failure in that regard.
And with his size and supposed coordination he should have been a great post-up player, but failed to be.

Have to agree. The only way Lebron would play on the Sixers is similar to how he always has -dominating the ball at the expense of Simmons

[commentatorer]

So that I understand what you are saying...

Your point is that LeBron James - to many people (not you, but other basketball observers) one of the top 3-to-5 players in NBA history - is not “versatile enough to play off the ball”?

That is your position?

Ummm...I disagree.

LeBron has never proven that he can play off the ball regularly, always been a failure in that regard.
And with his size and supposed coordination he should have been a great post-up player, but failed to be.

Have to agree. The only way Lebron would play on the Sixers is similar to how he always has -dominating the ball at the expense of Simmons

Especially now that he's having the most statistically dominant season of his career, career-high in assists AND rebounds.
His thirst for domination has never been greater (if we disregard defense).

[cksdayoff]

If Simmons was American I believe this debate would be over. Cant help but think that Simmons being an Aussie is working against him in this situation!

simmons being an aussie has nothing to do with the arguments being made

[michaelm]

If Simmons was American I believe this debate would be over. Cant help but think that Simmons being an Aussie is working against him in this situation!

simmons being an aussie has nothing to do with the arguments being made

One of the reasons I clash with the poster who made the statement.

There are 3 main reasons for opposition to Simmons' candidacy imo, the (quite false imo) "not a rookie" thing, Mitchell together with Utah's late season form having a spectacular season which would in most circumstances be ROTY - worthy during which he has displayed shooting talent appealing to the eyes of many, and disapproval of "The Process", the latter although doubtless involving jealousy not totally unreasonable, again imo.

[bebopdeluxe]

Wade liked handling the ball a lot but he never struck me as pass-first nor was he a Point Guard.
Simmons is 100% pure Point Guard with pass-first instincts.
If LeBron comes to Philly, he will have to adapt to Simmons.
Simmons has no obligation to change, because Simmons is 100% pure Point Guard.
I don't think LeBron is versatile enough to play off-the-ball, so I don't think he should come to Philly.
Go to the Lakers and take Lonzo Ball's ball.

So that I understand what you are saying...

Your point is that LeBron James - to many people (not you, but other basketball observers) one of the top 3-to-5 players in NBA history - is not “versatile enough to play off the ball”?

That is your position?

Ummm...I disagree.

LeBron has never proven that he can play off the ball regularly, always been a failure in that regard.
And with his size and supposed coordination he should have been a great post-up player, but failed to be.

Fine. Then post up Ben. He has shown himself to be REALLY effective there - especially with cutters like Cov, JJ, Marco, Fultz and - eventually - LeBron doing the cutting. Embiid has enough of an outside game that he will clear the lane.

I really do have to say that this "LeBron can't play without the ball narrative" to be ridiculous. I mean...was it LeBron who hit the shot to give the town of Cleveland its first title in over 50 years? Huh? The difference is Kyrie wanted his own ball...whereas I think that - in classic Spursian tradition - everybody on the Sixers will be happy to share the ball. The Sixers lead the league in passes and are second in assists.

The bottom line is this - LeBron is smart enough to see what the Sixers are. They are an unselfish team that plays great defense. Pretty much the exact opposite of what the Cavs are right now. If LeBron wants to win more titles sharing (fighting for) the ball with Harden and CP3, then go to Houston. But if he wants to extend his career, not lead the league AGAIN in minutes per game played, and cement his legacy as the GOAT, the choice is pretty simple, IMO.

I think he is ready to have help sharing the load. We will see what he thinks on July 1.

[Winglish]

First off, my statements have not been proven false.

Simmons 0% from 3 point line.
Simmons for a guard, is a horrible free throw shooter.
Simmons is one of the leaders in turnovers for all rookies. This one is more misleading becasue he has the ball in his hand for more possessions then other rookies.

With these three true statements above, I will state what you all think I don't agree with. Ben Simmons is the best rookie that I have ever seen besides Lebron James and will win the ROY award. He is great at multi facets of the game but he has work to do in the above mentioned areas. Until he develops an outside shot he will not get the love that you all want to give him as a top 10 player.

Here in Utah we all love Donovan Mitchell, we are all enjoying how much enjoyment and passion he has brought to what we all were thinking was going to be a very long season.

We can all talk about his faults, but at the same time, we all believe that he will learn from this season and come back even better next year. He has two things going for him, first and most important is his attiude and how that allows him to approach the game. The second one is we have a very good coaching staff, that we have a lot of trust in, every young player gets better here if there are willing to put in the practice (think opposite of Lyles).

Sorry I got so many of you riled up but to be true fans I believe you need to be critical of your success as well. Don't see much of that going on here.

Peace to all.

All 76er fans acknowledge simmons has to get a shot. There's no denial.

Its different to jazz fans who ignore how many shots mitchell puts up or they ignore Gobert and claim mitchell carries the team.

Lets be true fans eh?

You are right. Mitchell misses some shots. At his usage rate he has the highest effective field goal percentage of any rookie guard since Michael Jordan.

I would think Philly fans would respect an uber-athletic guard who is a scorer and who shows miles of potential, even if he keeps shooting after missing a few? That fearlessness? That will to win? That desire to take the shot in the clutch? That ability to create a shot when the defense is clamping down specifically on him? Was Allen Iverson THAT long ago that he is forgotten already?

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

[bebopdeluxe]

First off, my statements have not been proven false.

Simmons 0% from 3 point line.
Simmons for a guard, is a horrible free throw shooter.
Simmons is one of the leaders in turnovers for all rookies. This one is more misleading becasue he has the ball in his hand for more possessions then other rookies.

With these three true statements above, I will state what you all think I don't agree with. Ben Simmons is the best rookie that I have ever seen besides Lebron James and will win the ROY award. He is great at multi facets of the game but he has work to do in the above mentioned areas. Until he develops an outside shot he will not get the love that you all want to give him as a top 10 player.

Here in Utah we all love Donovan Mitchell, we are all enjoying how much enjoyment and passion he has brought to what we all were thinking was going to be a very long season.

We can all talk about his faults, but at the same time, we all believe that he will learn from this season and come back even better next year. He has two things going for him, first and most important is his attiude and how that allows him to approach the game. The second one is we have a very good coaching staff, that we have a lot of trust in, every young player gets better here if there are willing to put in the practice (think opposite of Lyles).

Sorry I got so many of you riled up but to be true fans I believe you need to be critical of your success as well. Don't see much of that going on here.

Peace to all.

All 76er fans acknowledge simmons has to get a shot. There's no denial.

Its different to jazz fans who ignore how many shots mitchell puts up or they ignore Gobert and claim mitchell carries the team.

Lets be true fans eh?

You are right. Mitchell misses some shots. At his usage rate he has the highest effective field goal percentage of any rookie guard since Michael Jordan.

I would think Philly fans would respect an uber-athletic guard who is a scorer and who shows miles of potential, even if he keeps shooting after missing a few? That fearlessness? That will to win? That desire to take the shot in the clutch? That ability to create a shot when the defense is clamping down specifically on him? Was Allen Iverson THAT long ago that he is forgotten already?

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

As a Sixers fan I an SO FREAKING TIRED of being made to feel by Jazz fans like I do not respect what Mitchell is doing. He is having a great rookie season. Kid looks like he is going to be a stud.

I THINK THAT BEN SIMMONS IS BETTER THAN DONOVAN MITCHELL

That does NOT mean that I cannot both respect and appreciate what Mithcell has done.

Does that make ANY sense to Jazz fans? Huh? The following two statements CAN coexist:

1) Donovan Mitchell is having an OUTSTANDING rookie season; and..

2) Ben Simmons is the 2017-18 NBA Rookie of the Year.

Right?

[Larry Legend 33]

LB is the only one that can be in discussion about the goat besides MJ, yet I am frightened of the idea that he comes to Philly. We are playing team first basketball with two young stars and LB has a tendency to do things for himself. I do not want a guy who wil not shoot late secs 3pt, because he cares to much about his stats close to Philly. Ben, Embiid, Fultz, Dario, JJ, Roco all seem more then happy to sacrifice their numbers for team wins and that is the chemistry I do not want destroyed by "me first" superstar...

With everything you have going into the future, I'd be wary of GM Lebron coming in and forcing shortsighted moves that better fit his timeline. I actually think given the skillsets on your roster, you'd be better off with someone like Kawhi (provided his injury checks out), who will also be slightly cheaper.