NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sports

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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#301 » by Parataxis » Sat Mar 7, 2015 6:55 pm

ChosunX wrote:
Bill Bradley wrote:
ChosunX wrote:So if ''intent'' does not matter, it means well meaning folks can be treated like people who want to hurt minorities?


I can't help you any more. I'm afraid you're going to need to read up on racism and structural inequality in sports and society if you want to learn more. I can offer some resources if you are sincerely interested.

You think most people decided slavery was wrong because they read long books about it? Why is simple logic not enough?


Because racism isn't about logic. And neither was slavery - abolishing slavery wasn't a logical decision, it was one based on human rights and emotive notions of equality.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#302 » by Parataxis » Sat Mar 7, 2015 6:56 pm

ChosunX wrote:
Parataxis wrote:
They sure are. And that's classism.

So if most members of certain minorities are poor, it's classism, not racism?


Intersectionality, my friend. It's possible to have multiple systemic disadvantages at once.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#303 » by ChosunX » Sat Mar 7, 2015 6:58 pm

Parataxis wrote:
ChosunX wrote:
Bill Bradley wrote:
I can't help you any more. I'm afraid you're going to need to read up on racism and structural inequality in sports and society if you want to learn more. I can offer some resources if you are sincerely interested.

You think most people decided slavery was wrong because they read long books about it? Why is simple logic not enough?


Because racism isn't about logic. And neither was slavery - abolishing slavery wasn't a logical decision, it was one based on human rights and emotive notions of equality.

I downlplayed the part of emotion, sorry. If you have free speech for every white and right to own property, it's logical to abolish slavery.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#304 » by ChosunX » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:00 pm

Parataxis wrote:
ChosunX wrote:
Parataxis wrote:
They sure are. And that's classism.

So if most members of certain minorities are poor, it's classism, not racism?


Intersectionality, my friend. It's possible to have multiple systemic disadvantages at once.

Are upper class blacks discriminated against? It's not like we have a black president.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#305 » by High 5 » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:02 pm

I'm not sure I have ever seen a more ridiculous cry of racism. MLK is rolling over in his grave at this one.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#306 » by Dr Pepper » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:06 pm

Parataxis wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:
Parataxis wrote:
You've stated that multiple times in this thread. Care to explain how that would possibly work? The same number of people get drafted each year, regardless of age limits.


Both vets and rookies sit on the end of benches, with a lower age limit that means more gambles on prospects and fewer paydays to hand out for the vets. Also you can acquire players outside of the draft.


You can acquire players outside of the draft, but those people aren't the 18 year olds we're talking about.

Reducing the minimum drafting age has no negative effect on end of bench veterans, your assertions aside.


You missed the other sentence but I'll recap for you: Teams would love to gamble on 18 year olds instead of signing vets for the end of their benches. There's a lot more payoff in that risk equation in favor of owners than not, the players know this especially since the owners want to raise the age limit which is what the players actually want as well. The NBAPA lawyer is just trying to build leverage and a narrative for the media.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#307 » by Nyphantom » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:08 pm

I'm not white or black, and I find these accusations of racism to be ridiculous. SMH
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#308 » by jokeboy86 » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:12 pm

I think we all can agree we're in for a hell of labor fight when this CBA is up. The players & union think Adam Silver is weaker than than Stern and smell blood. It'll be interesting to see how Silver does when the talks get here because at the end of the day he still answers to the owners and if they feel he's too soft on the players they will oust him quickly.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#309 » by jazzfan1971 » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:16 pm

Personally, I think if they want to join the NBA at 18 that should be their right. Black, White, Asian, whatever. They are adults and should have that freedom.

I don't think it's really racism driving these policies as dollars. If you want to see color in this issue be sensitive to green instead.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#310 » by DubTheVanDamage » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:21 pm

Knowledge is power. The NBPA is being cynical and divisive by trying to co-opt legitimate social issues for their benefit in their battle between wealthy players and wealthier owners.

The danger here is that not only is this issue a distraction but, by channeling real issues for their fake complaint, if their phony issue is discredited, it discredits legitimate ones as well.

The NHL has been given as an example of a league that has a more player-friendly drafting system and, according to the NBPA, this is because the league is almost entirely white.

Yet the reality is vastly different, the very white NHL has a far more player unfriendly CBA than the NBA.

For those unfamiliar with the NHL, all players are draft eligible at age 18 and the primary source of players is from junior hockey (which is for players ages 15-20 and has it's own draft, usually forcing players to live away from home with a host family); players from high school, college and overseas leagues can also be drafted. High school players generally go on to play college hockey for one or more years.

Any drafted player can play in the NHL although most either stay in junior hockey for a year or two or play in the development league, the AHL (which has an average salary of $85k/year). Players from junior teams who are under 20 must either play in the NHL or on their junior team; they cannot play in the AHL. Furthermore, if a junior player starts the year on his junior team, he must finish the season before he can join the NHL. Finally, a junior player may play up to 9 games for his NHL team to start the season and still be returned to junior (he would be paid NHL salary for the 9 games but not the rest of the season).

According to Quanthockey, 14 of the 526 NHL rookies from 2010-2014 played at age 18. They don't differentiate between players who played a full season or only a few games at the start or end of the junior season. But, over 97% of NHL players debuted at 19 or later, with 22 being the most common age for an NHL debut. The data is on this page:

http://www.quanthockey.com/Distributions/RookieAgeDistribution.php

NHL free agency also works differently than in the NBA. The most common way to become an unrestricted free agent is through the 27/7 rule, which means a player is 27 years old or has accrued 7 years of NHL experience. Another way is to be age 25 or older with less than 80 games of NHL experience (i.e. a career minor leaguer). Restricted free agency is much less player movement friendly in the NHL; the team that owns a player’s rights not only has the right to match but also is entitled to draft pick compensation depending on the AAV of the contract (up to 4 first round picks!).

So, while the occasional player, such as Sidney Crosby, can play in the NHL at age 18, receive an NHL salary and accrue service towards free agency, the reality is that nearly all players are forced to play in junior hockey and/or a developmental league, at a pittance of a salary, until their NHL team deems them ready to play, which is often well after their NBA counterparts have starting playing pro ball. Even first round picks in the NHL often play in developmental leagues, while that is quite rare for their NBA counterparts and there is no mechanism to force a team to promote a player to the NHL.

If the NBA owners submitted an NHL-type draft and developmental contract for the next CBA, the NBPA would laugh.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#311 » by cl2117 » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:24 pm

jazzfan1971 wrote:Personally, I think if they want to join the NBA at 18 that should be their right. Black, White, Asian, whatever. They are adults and should have that freedom.

I don't think it's really racism driving these policies as dollars. If you want to see color in this issue be sensitive to green instead.

I agree. It's about making money.

There's no reason that other people should be making decisions on behalf of legal adults in terms of employment, which is what's happening with this 1 year rule. But if you want to look to for a reason as to why this is allowed to happen in this instance I think money has a lot more to do with it than skin color.

I'm confident that if you could make similar amounts of money on college hockey or baseball or swimming or soccer or any other college sport from putting in an age limitation there would be a rule in place or people vigorously arguing that one needs to be in place. There is just nowhere near the same amount of money to be made in those sports as compared to college basketball or football. If you look at baseball, phenoms like Steven Strasburg regularly play in college instead of going straight to the minors, yet no it makes little difference in how much people care about college baseball.

It's all about the money.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#312 » by WD » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:26 pm

On the 50th anniversary of the March On Selma, I'm just going to leave this subject alone for today
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#313 » by Parataxis » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:32 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:
Parataxis wrote:
You can acquire players outside of the draft, but those people aren't the 18 year olds we're talking about.

Reducing the minimum drafting age has no negative effect on end of bench veterans, your assertions aside.


You missed the other sentence but I'll recap for you: Teams would love to gamble on 18 year olds instead of signing vets for the end of their benches. There's a lot more payoff in that risk equation in favor of owners than not, the players know this especially since the owners want to raise the age limit which is what the players actually want as well. The NBAPA lawyer is just trying to build leverage and a narrative for the media.


I didn't miss that, it's just irrelevant. They're not replacing the 18 year old with a vet - they're replacing the just drafted 18 year old with a just drafted 20 year old.

Your canard about replacing vets and leverage is just untrue, sorry.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#314 » by mefromthefuture » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:51 pm

The argument for the age limit is joke not anti black but anti American if Dante Exum was from the USA he won't have be elgilble for the draft but forginers can join it makes no sense.

I said last year if I was high school basketball player I would have sued to fix that rule or they eliminate the rule. No reason for foreign teenagers to be treated better by American companies then American teens.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#315 » by HangTime » Sat Mar 7, 2015 7:54 pm

How about something different?

Have 18 year olds be drafted, but have them play away from the team for year. I'll use the 2015 HS class as an example.

Thon Maker declares for the upcoming draft, and he also picks a college to attend (for example Kentucky).

So the team that drafts him, will have him under team control for 5 years (vs a 4 year for older players).

1st round
Year 1- Paid Internship to play at Kentucky (salary equals to half of the draft spot pay scale), Kentucky pays the Scholarship. He may join the NBA when his team is eliminated from NCAA tournament, or if they don't qualify. (won't count as a rookie this year). He won't be eligible for the playoffs.

Year 2- Guaranteed Full pay scale contract (Rookie year)
Year 3- Guaranteed Full pay scale contract (2nd year)
Year 4- team option (3rd year)
Year 5- team option (4th year)

--------------------------------------------
For a 2nd rounder
Year 1- Paid Internship to play at ________ (salary equals to half of NBA minimum), _______ pays the scholarship.
Year 2- team option
Year 3- team option
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#316 » by WhateverBro » Sat Mar 7, 2015 8:21 pm

ChosunX wrote:Are upper class blacks discriminated against? It's not like we have a black president.


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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#317 » by bryanoid » Sat Mar 7, 2015 8:28 pm

It really is only about money, but **** it - we're through the looking glass already
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#318 » by cold_cowboy » Sat Mar 7, 2015 8:50 pm

Bill Bradley wrote:Of course you will get the standard ignorant white guy response that it has nothing to do with race. When you're white, it's a lot easier to not see race. But this is clearly a racist policy- one that disproportionately affects black athletes and lines the NCAA's pockets.

so there's no ambiguity in these situations? if somebody doesn't agree with the outcry, it's straight to racism? give me a break.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#319 » by DaddyCool19 » Sat Mar 7, 2015 9:01 pm

Why do you even have to finish high school before signing a contract? Maybe that will sound weird to you guys but in Europe there are not that few football players who play in the 1st or 2nd division when they are only 17-18 while still being in 11th or 12th grade. They don't earn that much until they turn 18. But there are players who already earn 6 to 7 figures salaries on their first contract.
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Re: NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sp 

Post#320 » by Nate505 » Sat Mar 7, 2015 9:07 pm

Bill Bradley wrote:Of course you will get the standard ignorant white guy response that it has nothing to do with race. When you're white, it's a lot easier to not see race. But this is clearly a racist policy- one that disproportionately affects black athletes and lines the NCAA's pockets.

It's a racist policy that's not based on race...ok.

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