Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation?

[tha_rock220]

No. I don't want sports organizations dictating legislative policy. These are two very separate arenas and should stay separate.

As long as government stays out of the way, this should be the decision of collegiate athletics to make.

I haven't been following this whole Indiana but I just want to say that the LGBT community is the epitome if hypocrisy. Accept my lifestyle, but I'm not going to accept your lifestyle of not accepting my lifestyle.

"Allowing discrimination" is quite a far stretch from "acceptance", no?

Sure, but is that the case here? This reminds me of the Hobby Lobby case where women expressed their outrage that they couldn't force their beliefs onto corporate policy by claiming the corporation was forcing its beliefs on them.

[Neutral 123]

I haven't been following this whole Indiana but I just want to say that the LGBT community is the epitome if hypocrisy. Accept my lifestyle, but I'm not going to accept your lifestyle of not accepting my lifestyle.

Much like black people not wanting to be shot by cops because they are black? Accept me as black otherwise I won't accept this society? Same kind of idea?

It may be shocking to you, but gay people don't care if you agree with what they're doing, they really don't. They just want all the same rights that straight people have.

Yes, hopefully there will be a stronger voice, especially corporate influence when it comes to police murdering black men, women and children.

[Neutral 123]

Anyone have a link I can read proving that one is born gay? Because my Bio class couldn't even do it. I'm neutral on the issue but have a lot of liberal and conservative friends and listening to their arguments are hilariously rhetorical.

My dad, who is gay, summarized in the most perfect way for me.

Why would he have chosen to be gay? Why would he have chosen to grow up hiding his sexuality, be incredibly depressed to the point of suicide. Why would he have chosen a path that's harder, that involves persecution and discrimination?

And that's why I always assumed one was born gay. Why go through that if you dont have to? But at the same time, identifying with a certain religion results in persecution and discrimination, some places to the point of death. In other ways, peoples actions made out of choice result in persecution, so it doesn't prove much.

I've known people who identify as gay tell me they choose it because they prefer it, however they were technically bisexual. A guy I used to play poker with said he hated the not a choice argument because your technically agreeing with it being wrong.

I agree, it shouldn't matter if its a choice or not. Its a red herring argument. Its weird those who tend to blather on about freedom the most, constantly want to push their narrow view of freedom on others.

[Nebula1]

No. I don't want sports organizations dictating legislative policy. These are two very separate arenas and should stay separate.

As long as government stays out of the way, this should be the decision of collegiate athletics to make.

What I'm saying is that governments have branches for a reason and that sports organizations should not be dictating policy. That's absurd.

The NCAA should stick to what it does best... ripping off college players for profit.

[Carlton Banksy]

I haven't been following this whole Indiana but I just want to say that the LGBT community is the epitome if hypocrisy. Accept my lifestyle, but I'm not going to accept your lifestyle of not accepting my lifestyle.

Are you serious? What you just said is basically "Give me equal rights, but I won't accept not being given equal rights". That's not hypocritical. It would be hypocritical to want to be accepted while discriminating against heterosexuals. Bigotry isn't a "lifestyle", it's just hatred. Nobody should just accept being discriminated against because it's the bigots' "lifestyle". That's absurd.

[tha_rock220]

What I'm saying is that governments have branches for a reason and that sports organizations should not be dictating policy. That's absurd.

The NCAA should stick to what it does best... ripping off college players for profit.

I agree, but I also think the NCAA watching out for their bottom line, what they also do really well, might result in them staying away from Indiana in the future, and I don't think that would be them dictating policy.

[DanTown8587]

I haven't been following this whole Indiana but I just want to say that the LGBT community is the epitome if hypocrisy. Accept my lifestyle, but I'm not going to accept your lifestyle of not accepting my lifestyle.

"Allowing discrimination" is quite a far stretch from "acceptance", no?

Sure, but is that the case here? This reminds me of the Hobby Lobby case where women expressed their outrage that they couldn't force their beliefs onto corporate policy by claiming the corporation was forcing its beliefs on them.

Yes, the original draft of the law allows for discrimination of people based on the "religious beliefs" of businesses and allows for sexual orientation to be a basis. Just do what most states allow who have very similar laws: yes for religious belief but have a carve out in it that says sexual orientation is treated as a protected class.

[Carlton Banksy]

Anyone have a link I can read proving that one is born gay? Because my Bio class couldn't even do it. I'm neutral on the issue but have a lot of liberal and conservative friends and listening to their arguments are hilariously rhetorical.

My dad, who is gay, summarized in the most perfect way for me.

Why would he have chosen to be gay? Why would he have chosen to grow up hiding his sexuality, be incredibly depressed to the point of suicide. Why would he have chosen a path that's harder, that involves persecution and discrimination?

And that's why I always assumed one was born gay. Why go through that if you dont have to? But at the same time, identifying with a certain religion results in persecution and discrimination, some places to the point of death. In other ways, peoples actions made out of choice result in persecution, so it doesn't prove much.

I've known people who identify as gay tell me they choose it because they prefer it, however they were technically bisexual. A guy I used to play poker with said he hated the not a choice argument because your technically agreeing with it being wrong.

Okay, so when did you choose to be straight? I fail to see why it would be different for people who's sexuality differs from your own.

And the religion argument doesn't add up because religion is something people are indoctrinated from birth to believe in, so that's very different from people "choosing" a sexuality that in many cases, in the majority of countries, they're being told is wrong. Then you have homosexual animals, I mean logic is just so heavily on the side of being born with it.

I do agree that it shouldn't matter if it's a choice or not, because that implies that it's 'less right' if it is. But as somebody who doesn't identify as straight myself, and has never made any decision about that whatsoever, the idea of it being a choice is absurd.

And somebody can be bi & still be primarily interested in a certain gender. Bisexuality is a spectrum, it's not just a 50/50 split down the middle.

[loserX]

I haven't been following this whole Indiana but I just want to say that the LGBT community is the epitome if hypocrisy. Accept my lifestyle, but I'm not going to accept your lifestyle of not accepting my lifestyle.

One community is asking for equal rights. The other is asking for unequal rights. It shouldn't be any mystery which is which.

We do not have to "accept" the intolerance or bigotry of others; in fact we shouldn't. There's nothing hypocritical in that.

[Star-Lord]

I've known people who identify as gay tell me they choose it because they prefer it, however they were technically bisexual. A guy I used to play poker with said he hated the not a choice argument because your technically agreeing with it being wrong.

Holy hell is that guy dumb.

[Naija Boy]

Is this a joke? What do gay rights have to do with basketball? There are far more important issues in the world than gay rights, should we cancel every event because some people get offended? Gay people should have the same right as everyone else, not more. Its getting out of control the way the homosexual life style is being advertised and you're demonized if you don't agree with it. I personally don't care either way, but this is getting ridiculous.

Equal, same rights is exactly what people fight for. Nobody says gay people should have more rights. Its not just about people being offended, its about group of people not being treated equally for no good reason. There is a huge diference.

So because you feel some legislation is counteractive to your cause, you then have the right to take away a significant source of entertainment from several thousand people?

Ridiculous

[Naija Boy]

I've known people who identify as gay tell me they choose it because they prefer it, however they were technically bisexual. A guy I used to play poker with said he hated the not a choice argument because your technically agreeing with it being wrong.

Holy hell is that guy dumb.

Not really. His point makes sense. If someone says homosexuality is wrong and it should be illegal for gays to get married, and your response is "well it's not a choice, they're born with it", you're not even arguing against the claim that it's wrong, you're just arguing that that it's not within a person's control.

There are plenty of things that people are born with or can't control that are wrong btw, so I see the guy's point.

I'm not really a supporter of homosexual lifestyles, but people should be able to live as they see fit even if I personally don't agree with it. In Canada homosexuals have all the same rights as heterosexuals anyway, and it's not an issue. Where I'm starting to see an issue is some gay activists trying to press their views on people and taking away liberties from others as part of that effort. That is definitely not ok.

[Keller61]

Anyone have a link I can read proving that one is born gay? Because my Bio class couldn't even do it. I'm neutral on the issue but have a lot of liberal and conservative friends and listening to their arguments are hilariously rhetorical.

Sexuality is complicated; there probably isn't a singular gene that determines it, but more likely a large combination of factors. There are plenty of scientific articles you can read on the subject. Just because we can't pinpoint exactly what is causing it doesn't mean that nothing is causing it.

What I know for certain is that I've never met anyone who says that they chose their sexual orientation. It's an absurd concept when you think about it. When you think about how strong your sexual feelings are, do you really think that you could just choose to switch them off? Of course not. You can't help feeling sexually attracted to certain people. You can choose not to act on those feelings, but you can't choose not to feel them.

[Hardcore6erFan]

My accept my lifestyle comment was made mainly towards gay couples being all outraged that a wedding cake small business wont bake a cake for their gay wedding. Cry me a frickin river. I didn't read this thread and don't follow the news so I don't even know what's going on in Indiana.

[Star-Lord]

I've known people who identify as gay tell me they choose it because they prefer it, however they were technically bisexual. A guy I used to play poker with said he hated the not a choice argument because your technically agreeing with it being wrong.

Holy hell is that guy dumb.

Not really. His point makes sense. If someone says homosexuality is wrong and it should be illegal for gays to get married, and your response is "well it's not a choice, they're born with it", you're not even arguing against the claim that it's wrong, you're just arguing that that it's not within a person's control.

There are plenty of things that people are born with or can't control that are wrong btw, so I see the guy's point.

Yeah, really. One can say that the issue of choice in the matter doesn't address the point of whether it's inherently "wrong," but to say that simply stating one's sexuality is as much a preference as their race is akin to tacitly agreeing with it being wrong is a leap only a completely ridiculous person would make.

I'm not really a supporter of homosexual lifestyles, but people should be able to live as they see fit even if I personally don't agree with it. In Canada homosexuals have all the same rights as heterosexuals anyway, and it's not an issue. Where I'm starting to see an issue is some gay activists trying to press their views on people and taking away liberties from others as part of that effort. That is definitely not ok.

Don't worry, gay people don't want to take away anything you have. They just don't want to be told they can't have or do something because you don't like who they share their bed with, which is nobodies damn business to begin with, so whether or not you "agree" with it is completely irrelevant.

My accept my lifestyle comment was made mainly towards gay couples being all outraged that a wedding cake small business wont bake a cake for their gay wedding. Cry me a frickin river. I didn't read this thread and don't follow the news so I don't even know what's going on in Indiana.

Then maybe you should try shutting the **** up.

[gipper08]

God help us.



(bake their cake but preach the gospel of Christ to them for three hours first)

[Naija Boy]

Anyone have a link I can read proving that one is born gay? Because my Bio class couldn't even do it. I'm neutral on the issue but have a lot of liberal and conservative friends and listening to their arguments are hilariously rhetorical.

My dad, who is gay, summarized in the most perfect way for me.

Why would he have chosen to be gay? Why would he have chosen to grow up hiding his sexuality, be incredibly depressed to the point of suicide. Why would he have chosen a path that's harder, that involves persecution and discrimination?

That's not really a good argument. There are a lot of things that people choose to do that don't benefit them in the long-run.

That being said I don't think homosexuality is 100% a choice. I think it is to a certain extent but is more heavily influenced by environmental factors and how you were raised/what you were exposed to. People are going to call me a homophobe for that opinion, but science actually agrees with it, considering that no gene or combination of genes have proven to lead to homosexuality. So from that it's clear that it's based on nurture and choice rather than nature.

[Keller61]

I've known people who identify as gay tell me they choose it because they prefer it, however they were technically bisexual. A guy I used to play poker with said he hated the not a choice argument because your technically agreeing with it being wrong.

Holy hell is that guy dumb.

Not really. His point makes sense. If someone says homosexuality is wrong and it should be illegal for gays to get married, and your response is "well it's not a choice, they're born with it", you're not even arguing against the claim that it's wrong, you're just arguing that that it's not within a person's control.

There are plenty of things that people are born with or can't control that are wrong btw, so I see the guy's point.

Generally, when you say something is wrong, you're implying that someone is at fault and that it can/should be changed. People don't go around saying things like "cancer is wrong" or "earthquakes are wrong".

Saying "homosexuality is wrong" is akin to saying "left-handedness is wrong". It's a fact of that person's identity, not something that they can change. If you say that you disagree with the left-handed lifestyle and that in your opinion, activities such as writing and shooting a basketball should be reserved for the right hand, most people would think you're ridiculous. It's really not that different with homosexuality.

I'm not really a supporter of homosexual lifestyles, but people should be able to live as they see fit even if I personally don't agree with it. In Canada homosexuals have all the same rights as heterosexuals anyway, and it's not an issue. Where I'm starting to see an issue is some gay activists trying to press their views on people and taking away liberties from others as part of that effort. That is definitely not ok.

I don't understand your meaning here. If you fully agree that homosexuals should be treated equally in society, then what more is there to agree with? No one's asking you to personally enjoy the homosexual lifestyle, just to be tolerant of it. You can feel personally disgusted by the thought of gay sex, but still be an ardent supporter of homosexual rights.

[DoubleLintendre]

That's not really a good argument. There are a lot of things that people choose to do that don't benefit them in the long-run.

That being said I don't think homosexuality is 100% a choice. I think it is to a certain extent but is more heavily influenced by environmental factors and how you were raised/what you were exposed to. People are going to call me a homophobe for that opinion, but science actually agrees with it, considering that no gene or combination of genes have proven to lead to homosexuality. So from that it's clear that it's based on nurture and choice rather than nature.

Gay penguins man.

Unless someone at the zoo decided to let the penguins watch Xanadu(1980) without proper supervision, how does science explain that happening?

That note aside, I think it's a rickety argument to pose orientation as a choice. If I'm a guy and like men, but choose to marry a woman and have a family to feel normal-- my actions are a choice but my orientation might still be the same. Not all gay people discovered, or "chose" as you framed it, they were gay as adults. There are many adults who say they knew they were gay as long as they can remember, even as elementary school children.

Also how does science explain things like personality inclinations towards introversion or extroversion? Why are some children naturally very shy and others boisterous and seek attention? Science really only goes so far to explain individual behavior and personal orientations, of all kinds.

[nomansland]

Anyone have a link I can read proving that one is born gay? Because my Bio class couldn't even do it. I'm neutral on the issue but have a lot of liberal and conservative friends and listening to their arguments are hilariously rhetorical.

Absolute proof, no. But consider this from the APA:

"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."

http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation.aspx