NBA MVP Discussion '20-'21, Part 2 (Poll created 21 March '21)

[VDT]

Yes its more talent that what Jokic had to work with.
Nuggets/Nets
Take Jokic and Harden aside and we are left with:
Murray vs Irving Nets better.
MPJ vs Harris Similar production but with MPJ playing worse in the beginning and better now.
Old man Millsap vs old man Jordan. Millsap is probably better but not by much at this stage of his career.
J. Green vs J. Green. Similar production.
Campazzo vs Shamet similar production.
Pj. Dozzier vs TLC similar production.
Hartenstein vs Claxton Nets much better.
Morris vs Brown Hard to compare but there is no significant advantage in either case.
And then Denver has Barton instead of KD.

Il trade you Barton for KD if you like him so much.

That is not only wrong but full of hindsight. After the Harden trade, the talk was that the Nets were a top heavy team with no depth and no defense. People were thinking that they would have a hard time playing winning basketball with that roster. And that was assuming that Durant was healthy. Fast forward to now, Durant has missed more than 2/3 of the games, Irving has missed close to 1/3 of the games and yet the Nets are 1 game away from the first seed. But according to you Harden has played with more talent, on average, than Jokic. Even if one assumes that the talent around them was equal, Harden's record is significantly better than Jokic's.

Again Harden has played with more talent. The Nets also are a top heavy team.
My point is that the Nuggets roster was significantly weakened at the start of the 2021 season.
Harden's record is not significantly better than Jokics because he played with either Irving or Durant sometimes both for the most of the season he was there while Jokic played with Murray. The rest of the rosters are comparable.

Nets dont have good defensive players, but guess what, neither do the Nuggets. Durant missed a lot of the season but Nuggets dont have a Durant in the first place. The games Irving missed Durant played. Harden played without a star teammate in only 6 games. Murray missed 2 games and also laid a couple of eggs where it would have been better if he didnt play but it is how it is.

People dont realize that this seasons Denver roster had a lot players missing, injured, regressed because of age or played bad because of inexperience.

Murray was hurt or purely inconsistent because who knows what at this point. Before January he actually had a below league average offensive production and awful D. He had a great stretch of games in February but has entered another slump recently.
MPJ is young, inexperienced and was often horrible on D. Luckily he is getting the hang of it as the season moves on and is playing pretty good recently.
Millsap has regressed severely. He is 36 and way past his prime. As a starter he was pretty underwhelming but we had to play him since we had no one else. He is much better suited for the bench role now where he can actually be pretty good and the Gordon trade will allow us to use him that way.
Grant left, and while he was never that great in Denver as people think he was, he was still our only true wing stater.
That left us with a hole on the wing where we had to play Barton who is actually a SG. Malone also experimented with other 3 guard lineups that went horribly.
G. Harris was pretty bad this season. He had a lot of trouble with injuries from witch he never recovered. Then he got injured again and never came back. Im sad things turned out the way they did with Harris as he was one of my favorite Nuggets and a really good player before the injuries.
Hertenstein who was supposed to replace Plumlee couldnt keep him self out of foul trouble and on the court. We basically had no other bigs as the rest are rookies who dont know what they are doing half the time.
Campazzo with all his motor and vet savvy is still 5 7 and players shoot over him like he doesnt exist. On offense he is just a spot up shooter as his playmaking hasnt translated to the NBA at all. Maybe its because Malone doesnt know how to use him but he was still a negative on the court.
Green was fine as a backup but couldnt handle starter minutes.
Barton struggled playing out of position and looks much better as the SG now that Gordon in in the lineup.

TLDR Grant leaving left us with a hole on the SF spot witch we unsuccessfully tried to fill in with guards making our D awful. Murray laid a few eggs in the meantime and the rest of the roster was either too old, injured or too young.

You are basically blaming everyone else but Jokic for the teams less than stellar record, which you are allowed to do but i am not buying it. The Nuggets are the same team as last year save for Grant, a useful roleplayer, and they have several young player that would naturally get better with time. You call for example Murray inconsistent but he scores 21ppg on almost 60% TS which is pretty good for a second option. He will have his bad games but every player has these. MPJ is improved compared to last year. At the same time you dont have anything to say about Jokic defense and choose to blame everyone else around him. He is a center, he is supposed to be the last line of defense. Blaming roleplayers for the team's performance makes no sense to me. Any team is led by their stars and its their jobs to make roleplayers better. If your team depends on roleplayers to perform critical roles on the court that is usually a problem with your stars or your team building if you dont have any star. A couple of days ago a Nuggets fan made a thread about the Nuggets big 3. Now it seems we are back to the Jokic has no help narrative.

As i said i disagree about the talent comparison. The Nets have obviously more talent on paper but if that talent is more often than not missing games then it is not that impactful. And beyond the big 3, the Nets next best players are a shooting specialist in Harris and a washed out roleplayer in Jordan that no one thought/thinks that is useful. If you remove the top talent, the Nets roster was pretty bad before the trades. Harden's 23-8 record is not only considerably better than Jokic's but quite impressive given what he has to work with and how many games Durant and Kyrie have missed.

[Alatan]

That is not only wrong but full of hindsight. After the Harden trade, the talk was that the Nets were a top heavy team with no depth and no defense. People were thinking that they would have a hard time playing winning basketball with that roster. And that was assuming that Durant was healthy. Fast forward to now, Durant has missed more than 2/3 of the games, Irving has missed close to 1/3 of the games and yet the Nets are 1 game away from the first seed. But according to you Harden has played with more talent, on average, than Jokic. Even if one assumes that the talent around them was equal, Harden's record is significantly better than Jokic's.

Again Harden has played with more talent. The Nets also are a top heavy team.
My point is that the Nuggets roster was significantly weakened at the start of the 2021 season.
Harden's record is not significantly better than Jokics because he played with either Irving or Durant sometimes both for the most of the season he was there while Jokic played with Murray. The rest of the rosters are comparable.

Nets dont have good defensive players, but guess what, neither do the Nuggets. Durant missed a lot of the season but Nuggets dont have a Durant in the first place. The games Irving missed Durant played. Harden played without a star teammate in only 6 games. Murray missed 2 games and also laid a couple of eggs where it would have been better if he didnt play but it is how it is.

People dont realize that this seasons Denver roster had a lot players missing, injured, regressed because of age or played bad because of inexperience.

Murray was hurt or purely inconsistent because who knows what at this point. Before January he actually had a below league average offensive production and awful D. He had a great stretch of games in February but has entered another slump recently.
MPJ is young, inexperienced and was often horrible on D. Luckily he is getting the hang of it as the season moves on and is playing pretty good recently.
Millsap has regressed severely. He is 36 and way past his prime. As a starter he was pretty underwhelming but we had to play him since we had no one else. He is much better suited for the bench role now where he can actually be pretty good and the Gordon trade will allow us to use him that way.
Grant left, and while he was never that great in Denver as people think he was, he was still our only true wing stater.
That left us with a hole on the wing where we had to play Barton who is actually a SG. Malone also experimented with other 3 guard lineups that went horribly.
G. Harris was pretty bad this season. He had a lot of trouble with injuries from witch he never recovered. Then he got injured again and never came back. Im sad things turned out the way they did with Harris as he was one of my favorite Nuggets and a really good player before the injuries.
Hertenstein who was supposed to replace Plumlee couldnt keep him self out of foul trouble and on the court. We basically had no other bigs as the rest are rookies who dont know what they are doing half the time.
Campazzo with all his motor and vet savvy is still 5 7 and players shoot over him like he doesnt exist. On offense he is just a spot up shooter as his playmaking hasnt translated to the NBA at all. Maybe its because Malone doesnt know how to use him but he was still a negative on the court.
Green was fine as a backup but couldnt handle starter minutes.
Barton struggled playing out of position and looks much better as the SG now that Gordon in in the lineup.

TLDR Grant leaving left us with a hole on the SF spot witch we unsuccessfully tried to fill in with guards making our D awful. Murray laid a few eggs in the meantime and the rest of the roster was either too old, injured or too young.

You are basically blaming everyone else but Jokic for the teams less than stellar record, which you are allowed to do but i am not buying it. The Nuggets are the same team as last year save for Grant, a useful roleplayer, and they have several young player that would naturally get better with time. You call for example Murray inconsistent but he scores 21ppg on almost 60% TS which is pretty good for a second option. He will have his bad games but every player has these. MPJ is improved compared to last year. At the same time you dont have anything to say about Jokic defense and choose to blame everyone else around him. He is a center, he is supposed to be the last line of defense. Blaming roleplayers for the team's performance makes no sense to me. Any team is led by their stars and its their jobs to make roleplayers better. If your team depends on roleplayers to perform critical roles on the court that is usually a problem with your stars or your team building if you dont have any star. A couple of days ago a Nuggets fan made a thread about the Nuggets big 3. Now it seems we are back to the Jokic has no help narrative.

As i said i disagree about the talent comparison. The Nets have obviously more talent on paper but if that talent is more often than not missing games then it is not that impactful. And beyond the big 3, the Nets next best players are a shooting specialist in Harris and a washed out roleplayer in Jordan that no one thought/thinks that is useful. If you remove the top talent, the Nets roster was pretty bad before the trades. Harden's 23-8 record is not only considerably better than Jokic's but quite impressive given what he has to work with and how many games Durant and Kyrie have missed.

Ive basically made it pretty simple to compare the two rosters in the previous post but you chose to ignore it reversing back to Irving Durant missed games....

Irving and Durant have played more games for the Nets than Murray played for the Nuggets. If we remove Murray, who are all these amazing players Jokic has played with?
36 year old Millsap? MPJ in his 2nd season?
Barton?

My point is that the Nuggets roster up until now was not better but often worse than the Nets roster without Irving/Durant.

I am blaming most of the Nuggets roster as most of the Nuggets roster was to be blamed. How can stars be blamed for roleplayers not playing their roles? Its literally their only job to play their role. What do you expect? Stars tying little string to their arms and legs and remotely controlling them? Seriously, Jokic puts them in a place to succeed but sometimes they miss wide open shots/layups or struggle to defend their man. Yeah, Jokic cant erase their mistakes but we cant expect him to do everything and do it all alone. Is Harden the main defender, the main rebounder, the main scorer and the main playmaker on the Nets. No, but you ask that of Jokic.
Jokic is the guy who has carried the lions share to get the Nuggets to where they are now. He is somewhat to be blamed for the teams bad defense as are the rest of the Nuggets but he is not the only or the biggest problem. The only aspect of the game where i can say that he is hurting the Nuggets is rim protection and thats it. In every other part of the game, be it offense or defense, he is a positive, often the best player at it.

Harden is not winning more with less, he is winning more with more and not by a wide margin. The Nets have only 4 wins more than the Nuggets while Harden has missed 13 games for them. Again he has played only 6 games without either Irving or Durant. Two of those games he lost and one win was against the Pistons.

He is not carrying the Nets as you want to make it out to be.

Jokic has played all the games for the Nuggets and got them to where they are now. Without him the Nuggets would be a lotto team.

[Krodis]

Harden had like 3 bad games early on and people act like he spent a quarter of the season shooting at his own basket.

[Alatan]

Harden had like 3 bad games early on and people act like he spent a quarter of the season shooting at his own basket.

Embiid played 31 games for the Sixers missing 15 and he is considered disqualified for MVP because of the games he has missed/will miss.

Harden played 32 games for the Nets missing 15 and he is considered to be one of the favorites by some people.

Logic?

[Woodsanity]

Harden had like 3 bad games early on and people act like he spent a quarter of the season shooting at his own basket.

Embiid played 31 games for the Sixers missing 15 and he is considered disqualified for MVP because of the games he has missed/will miss.

Harden played 32 games for the Nets missing 15 and he is considered to be one of the favorites by some people.

Logic?

Agreed neither should be MVP to be honest.

[Woodsanity]

That is not only wrong but full of hindsight. After the Harden trade, the talk was that the Nets were a top heavy team with no depth and no defense. People were thinking that they would have a hard time playing winning basketball with that roster. And that was assuming that Durant was healthy. Fast forward to now, Durant has missed more than 2/3 of the games, Irving has missed close to 1/3 of the games and yet the Nets are 1 game away from the first seed. But according to you Harden has played with more talent, on average, than Jokic. Even if one assumes that the talent around them was equal, Harden's record is significantly better than Jokic's.

Again Harden has played with more talent. The Nets also are a top heavy team.
My point is that the Nuggets roster was significantly weakened at the start of the 2021 season.
Harden's record is not significantly better than Jokics because he played with either Irving or Durant sometimes both for the most of the season he was there while Jokic played with Murray. The rest of the rosters are comparable.

Nets dont have good defensive players, but guess what, neither do the Nuggets. Durant missed a lot of the season but Nuggets dont have a Durant in the first place. The games Irving missed Durant played. Harden played without a star teammate in only 6 games. Murray missed 2 games and also laid a couple of eggs where it would have been better if he didnt play but it is how it is.

People dont realize that this seasons Denver roster had a lot players missing, injured, regressed because of age or played bad because of inexperience.

Murray was hurt or purely inconsistent because who knows what at this point. Before January he actually had a below league average offensive production and awful D. He had a great stretch of games in February but has entered another slump recently.
MPJ is young, inexperienced and was often horrible on D. Luckily he is getting the hang of it as the season moves on and is playing pretty good recently.
Millsap has regressed severely. He is 36 and way past his prime. As a starter he was pretty underwhelming but we had to play him since we had no one else. He is much better suited for the bench role now where he can actually be pretty good and the Gordon trade will allow us to use him that way.
Grant left, and while he was never that great in Denver as people think he was, he was still our only true wing stater.
That left us with a hole on the wing where we had to play Barton who is actually a SG. Malone also experimented with other 3 guard lineups that went horribly.
G. Harris was pretty bad this season. He had a lot of trouble with injuries from witch he never recovered. Then he got injured again and never came back. Im sad things turned out the way they did with Harris as he was one of my favorite Nuggets and a really good player before the injuries.
Hertenstein who was supposed to replace Plumlee couldnt keep him self out of foul trouble and on the court. We basically had no other bigs as the rest are rookies who dont know what they are doing half the time.
Campazzo with all his motor and vet savvy is still 5 7 and players shoot over him like he doesnt exist. On offense he is just a spot up shooter as his playmaking hasnt translated to the NBA at all. Maybe its because Malone doesnt know how to use him but he was still a negative on the court.
Green was fine as a backup but couldnt handle starter minutes.
Barton struggled playing out of position and looks much better as the SG now that Gordon in in the lineup.

TLDR Grant leaving left us with a hole on the SF spot witch we unsuccessfully tried to fill in with guards making our D awful. Murray laid a few eggs in the meantime and the rest of the roster was either too old, injured or too young.

You are basically blaming everyone else but Jokic for the teams less than stellar record, which you are allowed to do but i am not buying it. The Nuggets are the same team as last year save for Grant, a useful roleplayer, and they have several young player that would naturally get better with time. You call for example Murray inconsistent but he scores 21ppg on almost 60% TS which is pretty good for a second option. He will have his bad games but every player has these. MPJ is improved compared to last year. At the same time you dont have anything to say about Jokic defense and choose to blame everyone else around him. He is a center, he is supposed to be the last line of defense. Blaming roleplayers for the team's performance makes no sense to me. Any team is led by their stars and its their jobs to make roleplayers better. If your team depends on roleplayers to perform critical roles on the court that is usually a problem with your stars or your team building if you dont have any star. A couple of days ago a Nuggets fan made a thread about the Nuggets big 3. Now it seems we are back to the Jokic has no help narrative.

As i said i disagree about the talent comparison. The Nets have obviously more talent on paper but if that talent is more often than not missing games then it is not that impactful. And beyond the big 3, the Nets next best players are a shooting specialist in Harris and a washed out roleplayer in Jordan that no one thought/thinks that is useful. If you remove the top talent, the Nets roster was pretty bad before the trades. Harden's 23-8 record is not only considerably better than Jokic's but quite impressive given what he has to work with and how many games Durant and Kyrie have missed.

They loss Grant and Plumlee. A good role player + a good backup. In addition, Porter Jr missed games early in the season due to injury and Murray was hurt.

Earlier in the season they performed worse due to all these factors. Its not just losing a single role player.

They have been trending upwards recently and I expect them to end up as a 3rd or 4th seed imo.

[ken6199]

Look at these guys who try so hard erasing the win-lose difference between Denver and Nets, by either including Houston's record, or bringing up the east conference.

I don't see those conference stuff being brought up during 18-19, where 5 out of 6 worst teams were in the East. The 14th Minny was only 8 games off a playoff spot in East. Rockets were just one Paul George buzz beater or a Michael Malone tanking trick away from the 2 seed, whereas the Bucks, only 2 games over Toronto (and Toronto lost 2 games on Jeremy Lamb half court heaves). Two of the worst 5 teams were from the Central division, the other 3 worst teams? Knicks, Hawks, Wizards, all played the Bucks 4 times (as an alternative to 3 games a year).

I get that Giannis is a deserved winner in 2019 and Jokic is the fan favorite this year because he both plays at a very high level and a fan favorite with such a likeable game compared to that other candidate, but some of you really need to let go of that obsession trying to discredit one player as hard as you can just because you don't like his game.

[Ballerhogger]

Giannis had ok night but his team is still pretender. So i think we can rule him out . got the line a lot

[Ballerhogger]

Still Jokic mvp he gets the 76ers missed out on jokkic and embiid match up

[Sharkboy242]

Look at these guys who try so hard erasing the win-lose difference between Denver and Nets, by either including Houston's record, or bringing up the east conference.

I don't see those conference stuff being brought up during 18-19, where 5 out of 6 worst teams were in the East. The 14th Minny was only 8 games off a playoff spot in East. Rockets were just one Paul George buzz beater or a Michael Malone tanking trick away from the 2 seed, whereas the Bucks, only 2 games over Toronto (and Toronto lost 2 games on Jeremy Lamb half court heaves). Two of the worst 5 teams were from the Central division, the other 3 worst teams? Knicks, Hawks, Wizards, all played the Bucks 4 times (as an alternative to 3 games a year).

I get that Giannis is a deserved winner in 2019 and Jokic is the fan favorite this year because he both plays at a very high level and a fan favorite with such a likeable game compared to that other candidate, but some of you really need to let go of that obsession trying to discredit one player as hard as you can just because you don't like his game.

I seriously can't even fathom how anyone thinks its okay to just ignore the 9 games Harden played in Houston to start the season.

While were at it lets also ignore Jokic's first 5 games on the season where Denver went 1-4.

[ken6199]

Look at these guys who try so hard erasing the win-lose difference between Denver and Nets, by either including Houston's record, or bringing up the east conference.

I don't see those conference stuff being brought up during 18-19, where 5 out of 6 worst teams were in the East. The 14th Minny was only 8 games off a playoff spot in East. Rockets were just one Paul George buzz beater or a Michael Malone tanking trick away from the 2 seed, whereas the Bucks, only 2 games over Toronto (and Toronto lost 2 games on Jeremy Lamb half court heaves). Two of the worst 5 teams were from the Central division, the other 3 worst teams? Knicks, Hawks, Wizards, all played the Bucks 4 times (as an alternative to 3 games a year).

I get that Giannis is a deserved winner in 2019 and Jokic is the fan favorite this year because he both plays at a very high level and a fan favorite with such a likeable game compared to that other candidate, but some of you really need to let go of that obsession trying to discredit one player as hard as you can just because you don't like his game.

I seriously can't even fathom how anyone thinks its okay to just ignore the 9 games Harden played in Houston to start the season.

While were at it lets also ignore Jokic's first 5 games on the season where Denver went 1-4.

I am not saying we should. I am referring to those guys who go out of their ways bringing that up every time Harden has a great night as if thy are so afraid their disliked player is going to get some more votes.

[FinnTheHuman]

Look at these guys who try so hard erasing the win-lose difference between Denver and Nets, by either including Houston's record, or bringing up the east conference.

I don't see those conference stuff being brought up during 18-19, where 5 out of 6 worst teams were in the East. The 14th Minny was only 8 games off a playoff spot in East. Rockets were just one Paul George buzz beater or a Michael Malone tanking trick away from the 2 seed, whereas the Bucks, only 2 games over Toronto (and Toronto lost 2 games on Jeremy Lamb half court heaves). Two of the worst 5 teams were from the Central division, the other 3 worst teams? Knicks, Hawks, Wizards, all played the Bucks 4 times (as an alternative to 3 games a year).

I get that Giannis is a deserved winner in 2019 and Jokic is the fan favorite this year because he both plays at a very high level and a fan favorite with such a likeable game compared to that other candidate, but some of you really need to let go of that obsession trying to discredit one player as hard as you can just because you don't like his game.

I seriously can't even fathom how anyone thinks its okay to just ignore the 9 games Harden played in Houston to start the season.

While were at it lets also ignore Jokic's first 5 games on the season where Denver went 1-4.

I am not saying we should. I am referring to those guys who go out of their ways bringing that up every time Harden has a great night as if thy are so afraid their disliked player is going to get some more votes.

Nah, you got it twisted. That’s a response to those who argue that Harden has a case over Jokic. You gotta explain to them why he doesn’t. I’m fine with people saying Harden has a better chance than the other guys to overtake Jokic till the end of season because he’s been having impressive performances recently, but when Nets fans come over here saying that Harden is leading the race, you gotta shut them down with facts such as the Houston record they ignore.

[dygaction]

Look at these guys who try so hard erasing the win-lose difference between Denver and Nets, by either including Houston's record, or bringing up the east conference.

I don't see those conference stuff being brought up during 18-19, where 5 out of 6 worst teams were in the East. The 14th Minny was only 8 games off a playoff spot in East. Rockets were just one Paul George buzz beater or a Michael Malone tanking trick away from the 2 seed, whereas the Bucks, only 2 games over Toronto (and Toronto lost 2 games on Jeremy Lamb half court heaves). Two of the worst 5 teams were from the Central division, the other 3 worst teams? Knicks, Hawks, Wizards, all played the Bucks 4 times (as an alternative to 3 games a year).

I get that Giannis is a deserved winner in 2019 and Jokic is the fan favorite this year because he both plays at a very high level and a fan favorite with such a likeable game compared to that other candidate, but some of you really need to let go of that obsession trying to discredit one player as hard as you can just because you don't like his game.

I seriously can't even fathom how anyone thinks its okay to just ignore the 9 games Harden played in Houston to start the season.

While were at it lets also ignore Jokic's first 5 games on the season where Denver went 1-4.

Indeed, for those people maybe newly traded players going beast mode should be eligible. Say, if the nets go 20-2 for the rest, and Blake Griffin gets good numbers... You have to include Harden's rockets games, or count him as missing Nets games. Maybe by the end of this season, missing those games can be made up by superior performance and team wins.

[ken6199]

Nah, you got it twisted. That’s a response to those who argue that Harden has a case over Jokic. You gotta explain to them why he doesn’t. I’m fine with people saying Harden has a better chance than the other guys to overtake Jokic till the end of season because he’s been having impressive performances recently, but when Nets fans come over here saying that Harden is leading the race, you gotta shut them down with facts such as the Houston record they ignore.

Harden has a case over Jokic. Yes I said it. Again, I am not saying he is the favorite, but he has a case.

And don't expect me to reply in details anymore on what's the case on Harden over Jokic. It's like you try to argue Harden > Curry, you can write an essay about it just to be attacked by "ringzzzzz", "winning matters", "two time MVP brooooooo". It's worthless. I've participated this MVP discussion for years, watching Harden against Curry, Westbrook, Kawhi, Lebron, Giannis, now Jokic. I've seen it all. We all know what's the deal when it comes to a player like James Harden. When he puts up stats guys accuse his lack of winning and all stat padding. When he wins games it's because of the east conference. I don't care about Rockets this year and I don't care about the Nets obviously, but it's refreshing from a neutral point of view to see more and more people start to realize the hate towards Harden over the years and how much he has been underrated just because now he is playing in a different environment which in a lot of the way is quite opposite to the 15-20 Rockets team so lot of the narratives can't be applied anymore (and new ones started to pop up to bring him down). If you ever dare to argue on his behalf, you look like an idiot on this board and everyone just pile on. It's fun to go me against the world but it's only fun for so long right?

I've never been happier and relaxed as a basketball fan and if you don't agree with my take, feel free to ignore my friend.

[dygaction]

Look at these guys who try so hard erasing the win-lose difference between Denver and Nets, by either including Houston's record, or bringing up the east conference.

I don't see those conference stuff being brought up during 18-19, where 5 out of 6 worst teams were in the East. The 14th Minny was only 8 games off a playoff spot in East. Rockets were just one Paul George buzz beater or a Michael Malone tanking trick away from the 2 seed, whereas the Bucks, only 2 games over Toronto (and Toronto lost 2 games on Jeremy Lamb half court heaves). Two of the worst 5 teams were from the Central division, the other 3 worst teams? Knicks, Hawks, Wizards, all played the Bucks 4 times (as an alternative to 3 games a year).

I get that Giannis is a deserved winner in 2019 and Jokic is the fan favorite this year because he both plays at a very high level and a fan favorite with such a likeable game compared to that other candidate, but some of you really need to let go of that obsession trying to discredit one player as hard as you can just because you don't like his game.

I seriously can't even fathom how anyone thinks its okay to just ignore the 9 games Harden played in Houston to start the season.

While were at it lets also ignore Jokic's first 5 games on the season where Denver went 1-4.

Agreed, if Harden gets a pass for games played for Rockets, Jokic should also get pardon for some of his. Oh wait, let's also ignore Luka's early losses because of baby fat and mid 6 losses in a row because of unhappy. so now Mavs are 22-11. Then Luka has a case over them as well. I have not looked at Dame and Steph, but am pretty sure they have some cases as well.

[Dupp]

Look at these guys who try so hard erasing the win-lose difference between Denver and Nets, by either including Houston's record, or bringing up the east conference.

I don't see those conference stuff being brought up during 18-19, where 5 out of 6 worst teams were in the East. The 14th Minny was only 8 games off a playoff spot in East. Rockets were just one Paul George buzz beater or a Michael Malone tanking trick away from the 2 seed, whereas the Bucks, only 2 games over Toronto (and Toronto lost 2 games on Jeremy Lamb half court heaves). Two of the worst 5 teams were from the Central division, the other 3 worst teams? Knicks, Hawks, Wizards, all played the Bucks 4 times (as an alternative to 3 games a year).

I get that Giannis is a deserved winner in 2019 and Jokic is the fan favorite this year because he both plays at a very high level and a fan favorite with such a likeable game compared to that other candidate, but some of you really need to let go of that obsession trying to discredit one player as hard as you can just because you don't like his game.

I seriously can't even fathom how anyone thinks its okay to just ignore the 9 games Harden played in Houston to start the season.

While were at it lets also ignore Jokic's first 5 games on the season where Denver went 1-4.

Well Jokic was playing great even when they were 1-4, his team was just extra bad.

[Haldi]

Nah, you got it twisted. That’s a response to those who argue that Harden has a case over Jokic. You gotta explain to them why he doesn’t. I’m fine with people saying Harden has a better chance than the other guys to overtake Jokic till the end of season because he’s been having impressive performances recently, but when Nets fans come over here saying that Harden is leading the race, you gotta shut them down with facts such as the Houston record they ignore.

Harden has a case over Jokic. Yes I said it. Again, I am not saying he is the favorite, but he has a case.

And don't expect me to reply in details anymore on what's the case on Harden over Jokic. It's like you try to argue Harden > Curry, you can write an essay about it just to be attacked by "ringzzzzz", "winning matters", "two time MVP brooooooo". It's worthless. I've participated this MVP discussion for years, watching Harden against Curry, Westbrook, Kawhi, Lebron, Giannis, now Jokic. I've seen it all. We all know what's the deal when it comes to a player like James Harden. When he puts up stats guys accuse his lack of winning and all stat padding. When he wins games it's because of the east conference. I don't care about Rockets this year and I don't care about the Nets obviously, but it's refreshing from a neutral point of view to see more and more people start to realize the hate towards Harden over the years and how much he has been underrated just because now he is playing in a different environment which in a lot of the way is quite opposite to the 15-20 Rockets team so lot of the narratives can't be applied anymore (and new ones started to pop up to bring him down). If you ever dare to argue on his behalf, you look like an idiot on this board and everyone just pile on. It's fun to go me against the world but it's only fun for so long right?

I've never been happier and relaxed as a basketball fan and if you don't agree with my take, feel free to ignore my friend.

Very well said.. been saying the same for the last 3 years to my close friends and this year they all of a sudden agree that Harden is probably the best player in the world.. but the only thing thats changed is he has better ball players around him now (yes even with all the games missed from Durant and Irving, the Rockets were that bad minus CP )
I don't even bother trying on here since it seems full (Please Use More Appropriate Word) with the examples you quoted like "ringzzz bro" but I do appreciate the few that get it and do try to, like you.

As to Mvp 2021.. If I had to vote right now, as much as I want to vote for Harden, its Jokic right NOW. But Mvp isnt a half year award like a lot of people seem to think. People always choose their favorite early on and stick with it no matter what. Giannis' first mvp is a perfect example of this. Or look at all the Embiid and Lebron guys desperatly wanting to believe that they can miss a huge chunck of games and still be in it this year.Harden as a bad few games early on and hes DISQUALIFIED!!! Harden will keep on balling, you can count on that, and yes even with Durant coming back.. Jokic better not dip but right now I have to agree its his to lose..

[trickshot]

Look at these guys who try so hard erasing the win-lose difference between Denver and Nets, by either including Houston's record, or bringing up the east conference.

I don't see those conference stuff being brought up during 18-19, where 5 out of 6 worst teams were in the East. The 14th Minny was only 8 games off a playoff spot in East. Rockets were just one Paul George buzz beater or a Michael Malone tanking trick away from the 2 seed, whereas the Bucks, only 2 games over Toronto (and Toronto lost 2 games on Jeremy Lamb half court heaves). Two of the worst 5 teams were from the Central division, the other 3 worst teams? Knicks, Hawks, Wizards, all played the Bucks 4 times (as an alternative to 3 games a year).

I get that Giannis is a deserved winner in 2019 and Jokic is the fan favorite this year because he both plays at a very high level and a fan favorite with such a likeable game compared to that other candidate, but some of you really need to let go of that obsession trying to discredit one player as hard as you can just because you don't like his game.

[b]I seriously can't even fathom how anyone thinks its okay to just ignore the 9 games Harden played in Houston to start the season.

While were at it lets also ignore Jokic's first 5 games on the season where Denver went 1-4.

Thought it was more than that. If it's only nine games then it's not big enough of a deal to disqualify him. It's not like he was even ass in every single one. He had 44/17 in one of them

[Sharkboy242]

Look at these guys who try so hard erasing the win-lose difference between Denver and Nets, by either including Houston's record, or bringing up the east conference.

I don't see those conference stuff being brought up during 18-19, where 5 out of 6 worst teams were in the East. The 14th Minny was only 8 games off a playoff spot in East. Rockets were just one Paul George buzz beater or a Michael Malone tanking trick away from the 2 seed, whereas the Bucks, only 2 games over Toronto (and Toronto lost 2 games on Jeremy Lamb half court heaves). Two of the worst 5 teams were from the Central division, the other 3 worst teams? Knicks, Hawks, Wizards, all played the Bucks 4 times (as an alternative to 3 games a year).

I get that Giannis is a deserved winner in 2019 and Jokic is the fan favorite this year because he both plays at a very high level and a fan favorite with such a likeable game compared to that other candidate, but some of you really need to let go of that obsession trying to discredit one player as hard as you can just because you don't like his game.

[b]I seriously can't even fathom how anyone thinks its okay to just ignore the 9 games Harden played in Houston to start the season.

While were at it lets also ignore Jokic's first 5 games on the season where Denver went 1-4.

Thought it was more than that. If it's only nine games then it's not big enough of a deal to disqualify him. It's not like he was even ass in every single one. He had 44/17 in one of them

The point is his record shouldn't be judged without taking that initial 3-6 Houston stint into consideration. Someone here (VDT) was literally saying those should be ignored as they are not apart of his Brooklyn campaign.

[CptCrunch]

Giannis homers amuse me,

Why is Giannis MVP?

Best record? Nope, 6th in the NBA, 3rd in conference.

Best counting stats? Not anywhere close by any objective measure. Does not lead any counting stat category. Isn't even in top 3 in any category.

Best advanced stats? Nope, according to RAPM, RPM, RAPTOR, BPM, not in top 5 in most of these.

Best defense? Just lol. Even if he was the best defensive player, he should be DPOY, not MVP.

Most impact? Jokic, LeBron, Harden clearly has him beat.

Giannis literally has zero/0 case for MVP. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand basketball. It is a shame that 20% of the poster here thinks Giannis is the MVP.