FIBA World Cup 2023 (FIRST thread)

[Mickey8]

I think he's already better player than Garuba and Aldama . Is Mara going to play at FIBA U18 this month???

[Mirotic12]

Tim Duncan has never come close to representing the US Virgin Islands in Basketball. If not for Hurricane Hugo might have been a swimmer for them but he's always represented USA in basketball. None of them would have to be naturalized because they would all have been born citizens because the US has birthright citizenship. So If any of your examples had been asked, they would be counted as citizens and not naturalized. Great examples of this. Let me put it like this, Jose Alvarado has played for the PR team. He was born in Brooklyn. He is not counted as a naturalized player.

Ewing was introduced to the sport in Massachusetts and even tried out for the ‘80 US Olympics team before he got his citizenship. In no way was he taken from the Jamaican national team’s youth system.

Do you think Arroyo and Barea wouldn’t have chosen team USA had they been good enough to make it? Yes, I know Arroyo went off once against the worst Olympics team the us have fielded, but that doesn’t change the fact that he couldn’t have made the roster. You’re not naturalized at all if you are a citizen since birth of said country.

Under the rules, Seikaly, Duncan, and Ewing were all naturalized players.

[Swuul]

FIBA article on Team USA. I for one thought the Team USA had very limited experience of international games (and thus FIBA rules of the game), but seems quite a few of them have played with the select team and/or USA youth teams, so most of them are not exactly jumping into cold water. I for one am starting to have quite a bit more belief on the chances of this team.

https://www.fiba.basketball/basketballworldcup/2023/news/strong-list-of-talents-for-usa-world-cup-squad

[GYK]

wouldn’t be my team. however young stars for FIBA would also be my go to. With in prime guys for Olympics.

FIBA
Trae/Hali
Ball/Edwards/Banes
Cade/Barnes
Zion/Paolo
JJJ/Nic/Allen

Ja, Fox, Mobley, Keegan, Troy, Porter, Garland, Maxey, Walker, and Mitchell are other options. Would mostly focus on 3-4 guard lineups with a big.

In Prime Olympics
Donovan/Brunson
Booker/Brown/Zach
Mikal/Ingram
Tatum/Gordon
Davis/Turner/Bobby

Neither team really established a “the guy”. I mean most of them could take it or at least play their role positionally. I feel sorry for Lonzo. He would be the best player to elevate star talent in the league right now. Elite defense for offensive guards to pair with. An amazing passer. High level shooter.

[Swuul]

Would mostly focus on 3-4 guard lineups with a big

Ie "It didn't work last time, but lets try same thing again"?

Last FIBA World Cup Serbia had Joker play as PF with the massive Nikola Milutinov playing as center (his job being pushing out any non-serbs from under the rim), and Serbia literally ran over the guard heavy Team USA in the first play-off round. With the different goal-tending rules of FIBA (the ball can be cleared away immediatly after hitting the rim, there is no imaginary "goal-tend cylinder" above the basket as under NBA rules), hand-checking allowed, and no 3-second rule under FIBA rules (so the big dudes will always be there), team USA lost the battle at the rim.
(Serbia was then beaten by Argentina, as they could match the serbian gorillas, and Argentina was simply having a better day shooting than Serbia.)

[GYK]

Would mostly focus on 3-4 guard lineups with a big

Ie "It didn't work last time, but lets try same thing again"?

Last FIBA World Cup Serbia had Joker play as PF with the massive Nikola Milutinov playing as center (his job being pushing out any non-serbs from under the rim), and Serbia literally ran over the guard heavy Team USA in the first play-off round. With the different goal-tending rules of FIBA (the ball can be cleared away immediatly after hitting the rim, there is no imaginary "goal-tend cylinder" above the basket as under NBA rules), hand-checking allowed, and no 3-second rule under FIBA rules (so the big dudes will always be there), team USA lost the battle at the rim.
(Serbia was then beaten by Argentina, as they could match the serbian gorillas, and Argentina was simply having a better day shooting than Serbia.)

Absolutely more of the same thing. FIBA differences need time to adjust to and want those young guys ready for heading the Olympics. As for the Olympics out talebting teams is all that’s necessary.
If it becomes too much Mobley/JJJ front court in.

[Mirotic12]

wouldn’t be my team. however young stars for FIBA would also be my go to. With in prime guys for Olympics.

FIBA
Trae/Hali
Ball/Edwards/Banes
Cade/Barnes
Zion/Paolo
JJJ/Nic/Allen

Ja, Fox, Mobley, Keegan, Troy, Porter, Garland, Maxey, Walker, and Mitchell are other options. Would mostly focus on 3-4 guard lineups with a big.

In Prime Olympics
Donovan/Brunson
Booker/Brown/Zach
Mikal/Ingram
Tatum/Gordon
Davis/Turner/Bobby

Neither team really established a “the guy”. I mean most of them could take it or at least play their role positionally. I feel sorry for Lonzo. He would be the best player to elevate star talent in the league right now. Elite defense for offensive guards to pair with. An amazing passer. High level shooter.

Once again, the Olympics is FIBA. Just because some NBA fans seem to want to make the Olympics separate from FIBA, for whatever strange reason, does not change the fact that the Olympics is a FIBA run competition.

[Mirotic12]

Last FIBA World Cup Serbia had Joker play as PF with the massive Nikola Milutinov playing as center (his job being pushing out any non-serbs from under the rim), and Serbia literally ran over the guard heavy Team USA in the first play-off round. With the different goal-tending rules of FIBA (the ball can be cleared away immediatly after hitting the rim, there is no imaginary "goal-tend cylinder" above the basket as under NBA rules), hand-checking allowed, and no 3-second rule under FIBA rules (so the big dudes will always be there), team USA lost the battle at the rim.
(Serbia was then beaten by Argentina, as they could match the serbian gorillas, and Argentina was simply having a better day shooting than Serbia.)

There is goal tending though if the ball is in the cylinder. You can't just knock the ball out or off if it's anywhere around the basket, which seems to be what most people think. The ball has to be actually sitting on the rim. So the amount of times that any player can actually achieve doing that is very rare. Might not even happen once in an entire FIBA tournament.

It's always talked about like some big deal, but it very rarely happens. NBA fans are saying all the time how Team USA could knock the ball off the rim like 10 times in a game, and they are lucky if they manage to do it at all in a tournament. Despite what the common perception is, that it's about athleticism, it simply isn't. It's actually about timing.

It's a very specialized skill, that requires a great feel for the natural timing of it, and very few players in history had it. The best I have ever seen at doing it was Antonis Fotsis, and even he could only maybe do it like two times in a tournament.

So yeah, it's a part of the obvious rules differences between the NBA and FIBA, but it's pretty much irrelevant in actuality. For example, the different rules for what is and isn't a foul (most fouls in the NBA are not fouls in FIBA), and the different amount of physical contact that the refs allow (way more contact is allowed in FIBA), are actually much more important. And again, as you say, that also favors big men a lot more than it does guards.

It's also why in FIBA, the guards tend to be bigger and stronger than they are in the NBA. It's amazing how every time Team USA plays in these tournaments, their "big guards" look small. Guys that are considered "big guards" in the NBA, look undersized in FIBA.

[GYK]

wouldn’t be my team. however young stars for FIBA would also be my go to. With in prime guys for Olympics.

FIBA
Trae/Hali
Ball/Edwards/Banes
Cade/Barnes
Zion/Paolo
JJJ/Nic/Allen

Ja, Fox, Mobley, Keegan, Troy, Porter, Garland, Maxey, Walker, and Mitchell are other options. Would mostly focus on 3-4 guard lineups with a big.

In Prime Olympics
Donovan/Brunson
Booker/Brown/Zach
Mikal/Ingram
Tatum/Gordon
Davis/Turner/Bobby

Neither team really established a “the guy”. I mean most of them could take it or at least play their role positionally. I feel sorry for Lonzo. He would be the best player to elevate star talent in the league right now. Elite defense for offensive guards to pair with. An amazing passer. High level shooter.

Once again, the Olympics is FIBA. Just because some NBA fans seem to want to make the Olympics separate from FIBA, for whatever strange reason, does not change the fact that the Olympics is a FIBA run competition.

Yea it’s FIBA rules but there’s the FIBA World Cup, which you obviously know is a whole different tournament(wait do you say FIBA World Cup everytime? no shorthand?) While important to you just not as important to us, thus sending the young stars.

[Sphynx]

US too young. France my favorites for gold

Latest betting odds to win World Cup

Favorite:

USA (-180)

Legit shot to beat US:

Serbia (+800)
Greece (+900)
Slovenia (+1000)
France (+1100)
Australia (+1100)

All others rather insignificant so we’re looking at these 6 teams as the only teams that can potentially win the gold.

Surprised to see US still the big favorites (not by much) but with this C team i think you would have worse prices for the other contenders?

That said, if you’re backing France and such now is the best time to bet futures on them (heck even Serbia’s $100 bet to win $800 is a very good deal).

Australia should be way shorter, they have the defensive tools to stop pretty much any team at this tournament.

Dyson Daniels, Thybulle, Josh Green, Exum as an on ball defensive unit is formidable in FIBA ball (Ben Simmons has opted out)

Have Giddey controlling the ball in offense, with vets in Patty Mills and Joe Ingles also playing.

Landale, Xavier Cooks, Jack White as other nice support pieces...

[lambchop]

US too young. France my favorites for gold

Latest betting odds to win World Cup

Favorite:

USA (-180)

Legit shot to beat US:

Serbia (+800)
Greece (+900)
Slovenia (+1000)
France (+1100)
Australia (+1100)

All others rather insignificant so we’re looking at these 6 teams as the only teams that can potentially win the gold.

Surprised to see US still the big favorites (not by much) but with this C team i think you would have worse prices for the other contenders?

That said, if you’re backing France and such now is the best time to bet futures on them (heck even Serbia’s $100 bet to win $800 is a very good deal).

Australia should be way shorter, they have the defensive tools to stop pretty much any team at this tournament.

Dyson Daniels, Thybulle, Josh Green, Exum as an on ball defensive unit is formidable in FIBA ball (Ben Simmons has opted out)

Have Giddey controlling the ball in offense, with vets in Patty Mills and Joe Ingles also playing.

Landale, Xavier Cooks, Jack White as other nice support pieces...

How surprising, dude was at home playing video games while a super model handled Gradey Dick so he decided to opt out.

[Swuul]

(Ben Simmons has opted out)

Actually, he made himself available, but Team Australia informed he won't be selected. After he got that information, Simmons informed he would have opted out anyway.



Regarding the odds. USA, Greece and Slovenia have too low odds for some reason, while Australia, France and Canada have too high odds. USA should have around +400, while Australia and France should sit with Serbia at +800, Greece and Canada are maybe at +1100, while Slovenia is perhaps +1500.

USA is the favourite, but not *that* much bigger favourite than Serbia, Australia, France.

If you are a betting person, with those "official" odds you should take bets for France and/or Australia (and Spain, who also has way too high odds atm) while their odds remain that high. I am pretty confident their odds will go down as the competition comes closer.

Likewise, one shouldn't bet for USA or Slovenia yet. Wait for their odds to get better, or skip them altogether (especially Slovenia, I have a hard time believing Luka could drag the aged and crippled Team Slovenia past Round of 16 (as they will face one of the teams from Group E in round of 16, and I just don't see Slovenia getting past whichever one gets through from Group E as #2)).

At this moment, Serbia seems like "risky bet". Their odds seem to me to be spot one; they'll have a very good team (much better than what that +800 indicates, IMO), but they have a history to crumble for some reason in the final rounds. I don't think the odds for Serbia will fluctuate much in any direction.

[sisibilio]

It is true that Duncan is a US citizen by birth. But it is also true that the Virgin Islands has its own separate national team. Just like Puerto Rico has a separate national team, but is part of the USA. So for example, JJ Barea and Carlos Arroyo were also born American citizens. And they also played for Puerto Rico's national team, and would have been considered national team naturalizations, if they switched to play for the USA.

Duncan was a part of the Virgin Islands national team, and was in its youth program. He had to switch to the US national team. So he would be considered a naturalized player, just like Arroyo would be if he switched from Puerto Rico's national team to the US national team.

There was no Virgin Islands NT when Duncan played in the olympics.

[sisibilio]

Lorenzo Brown not playing with Spain... It will be interesting to see if they suddenly naturalize another player in the upcoming weeks.

Do they have anyone in the pipeline? A naturalized big would make that team even stronger.

If ( big if, not likely) pain naturalizes a palyer it will NOt be a big.
theres a surplus of quality four and fives for the team, some of them will be left out both henrnangomez bros, aldama, Parra, Garuba, sebas saiz , and thats counting that suposedly Mirotic does not want to play anymore, ibaka is old....
but then you can also get one of the younglins that just won the u19 world cup, Baba Miller( dont get foold by tghe name, he is a full fledged born spaniard), Izan almansa ( who got the mvp) and last but not lease the spanish unicorn response to wembayama, aday mara.

now if only we could generate some damm guards..................... ricky, llul, rodriguez and rudy are ancient already... garubas little Bro has showed som promise tough...

Juan Nuñez and Hugo Gonzalez are 1st round prospects (Hugo top 5 level actually)
Then there's Jordi Rodriguez, Michael Caicedo, Mario Saint-Supery, Sergio de Larrea, Rafa Villar...
The 04/06 spanish generations are crazy deep, even deeper than the golden generation of Gasol, Navarro, Calderon and co.
The young Garuba is a terrific defender but quite limited offensively, i wouldn't be shocked if he eventually made it to the NBA as an specialist though, his defense is that good.

[lambchop]

Do they have anyone in the pipeline? A naturalized big would make that team even stronger.

If ( big if, not likely) pain naturalizes a palyer it will NOt be a big.
theres a surplus of quality four and fives for the team, some of them will be left out both henrnangomez bros, aldama, Parra, Garuba, sebas saiz , and thats counting that suposedly Mirotic does not want to play anymore, ibaka is old....
but then you can also get one of the younglins that just won the u19 world cup, Baba Miller( dont get foold by tghe name, he is a full fledged born spaniard), Izan almansa ( who got the mvp) and last but not lease the spanish unicorn response to wembayama, aday mara.

now if only we could generate some damm guards..................... ricky, llul, rodriguez and rudy are ancient already... garubas little Bro has showed som promise tough...

Juan Nuñez and Hugo Gonzalez are 1st round prospects (Hugo top 5 level actually)
Then there's Jordi Rodriguez, Michael Caicedo, Mario Saint-Supery, Sergio de Larrea, Rafa Villar...
The 04/06 spanish generations are crazy deep, even deeper than the golden generation of Gasol, Navarro, Calderon and co.
The young Garuba is a terrific defender but quite limited offensively, i wouldn't be shocked if he eventually made it to the NBA as an specialist though, his defense is that good.

difficult to be in the NBA as a 6 foot 4 defender, unless he can prove that he can lock down SFs and PFs too, similar to the niche PJ Tucker was able to find. But he'd have to add PJ Tucker's shooting in order for that to happen. Tucker was an above 40% shooter from deep in Europe too. Without that shooting Garuba is essentially a shorter version of Jared Vanderbilt without the ability to get easy buckets via lobs, dunks and offensive boards cause he's not that athletic/shorter.

How is Nunez a 1st round prospect? He doesn't appear on any mock drafts. And his main issue is that his offense is average at best. Jokubaitis at the same age was already playing Euroleague ball with nice minutes and at 19 he was Barcelona's back up PG. Yet Jokubaitis was never NBA bound. They are the same height and have somewhat similar numbers, except the Nunez is a terrible shooter, but significantly better in the open court pushing the ball.

As for the Spanish point guard issue, I personally think that's just a result of the way they play. I played in Spain for a couple of seasons and I can just remember how everyone was a complete player. Anyone could bring the ball up court, everyone could shoot, pass, post up, excellent decision making etc. But there were hardly any specialists. Another thing I noticed is that players play positions based on height and not so much based on skillset. That means the shortest guys are automatically point guards, while the taller dudes are bigs.

Unfortunately, that means that many of the most skilled Spanish PGs are dudes that are 1,73m-1,81m which is tough to pull off at the elite pro levels. In Spain someone like Franz Wagner would have been playing PF.

Anyway, Spain's focus on team success and having versatile players in undeniable. It's also the place where playing to win is THE priority, regardless of the players' age.

[Mirotic12]

Yea it’s FIBA rules but there’s the FIBA World Cup, which you obviously know is a whole different tournament(wait do you say FIBA World Cup everytime? no shorthand?) While important to you just not as important to us, thus sending the young stars.

The FIBA World Cup is also abbreviated as FIBA BWC, and the Olympics basketball tournament is also called FIBA Olympics, or abbreviated as FIBA OLY. So why wouldn't you call it FIBA OLY then?

[Mirotic12]

There was no Virgin Islands NT when Duncan played in the olympics.

Yes, there was.

https://www.fiba.basketball/americup/2022/team/Virgin-Islands#tab=profile

PARTICIPATIONS IN FIBA COMPETITION
Events Achievement
2023 FIBA AmeriCup 2025 Pre-Qualifiers Group Phase
2022 FIBA AmeriCup Group Phase
2017 FIBA AmeriCup 3rd Place Game
2016 Centrobasket Championship Reclassification 5-8
2014 Centrobasket Championship Preliminary Round
2012 Centrobasket Championship for Men Qualifying Round
2010 Central American and the Caribbean Games for Men Final Round
2010 Centro Basket Championship for Men Preliminary Round
2009 FIBA Americas Championship for Men Qualifying Round
2007 FIBA Americas Championship for Men/Olympic Qualifying Tournament Preliminary Round
2007 Pan American Games: Tournament for Men Final Round
2004 CBC Championship for Men Final Round
2003 Centrobasket Championship for Men Final Round
2003 FIBA Americas Championship for Men Preliminary Round
2001 Centrobasket Championship for Men Final Round
2001 FIBA Americas Championship for Men Semi-Finals
1999 Centrobasket Championship for Men Final Round
1997 Centrobasket Championship for Men Final Round
1993 Centrobasket Championship for Men Preliminary Round
1989 Centrobasket Championship for Men Final Round

Under the rules, Tim Duncan was a naturalized Team USA player.

[links135]

Wow Argentina didn't even qualify.

[iLLmatic860]

Looks like this will be an easy Gold for USA

[durden_tyler]

Yea it’s FIBA rules but there’s the FIBA World Cup, which you obviously know is a whole different tournament(wait do you say FIBA World Cup everytime? no shorthand?) While important to you just not as important to us, thus sending the young stars.

The FIBA World Cup is also abbreviated as FIBA BWC, and the Olympics basketball tournament is also called FIBA Olympics, or abbreviated as FIBA OLY. So why wouldn't you call it FIBA OLY then?

It’s all semantics. I blame the NBA owners for limiting their stars participation in these international competitions. It’s like, what they see is that two competitions in four years is too much for their “properties” to be borrowed during this span.

It’s almost like they have a deal with USA Basketball that only “every 4 years” (so Olympics fit) and it’s a win-win for the US since they now have the excuse of “that’s not our A Team anyway” and get to develop the younger stars

Whose genius idea is it as well to make the World Cup a year before the Olympics? FIBA of course, now it bit you in the as$ and you get a watered down competition because the best basketball nation is not sending their best players.


Anyway, still looking forward to the tournament. The stars might not be there but at least we get a rather even playing field with this B-C team from the US.