Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

[mysticOscar]

Are you really quoting and evaluating '94 SRS based on 2 playoff series...

Misty try to read challenge:

The 94 bulls also missed 20 combined games from their two stars and played a +4.7 srs when healthy in the regular season

1st vs an injury depleted cavs

Misty try to read challenge(again):

sweeping a team who's playoff lineup(accounting for injury and Price missing time) posted a 53-win pace(by record, +5.8! net differential but it's against below average comp)

Just quit while you're behind my guy

I was responding to your closing statement my guy.

The problem(for you) is the 1994 Bulls were also coasting. Hence why they were at +8 in the po's while their rs versions were at +5. Or, in "mystic-oscar speak": they were very good in the regular season when they tried, they were really really good in the postseason when they really really tried. Hope that helps!

Also adjusting SRS as you see fit to paint a narrative is hilarious. Do we make the same adjustments for MJ Bulls SRS to adjust the bunch of games that Rodman, Kucok, Pippen made in the 2nd 3peat runs?

Or we only do these scraping at the bottom of barrel adjustments when it favours your narrative against MJ?

Edit: just so I'm clear when I talked about injury depleted Cavs...I didn't only mean RS, I'm talking about Williams injury JUST before there series who was instrumental in Cavs charge at the end of RS. The cavs were too undersized my guy and u claiming that they were a 5.8 SRS is laughable and shows you look at numbers without context

[michaelm]

No one has ever explained to me how LeBron’s teams basically collapsing without him on the floor makes him better than MJ who acceded to a team game plan/the triangle offense which could function to an extent without him.

[mysticOscar]

No one has ever explained to me how LeBron’s teams basically collapsing without him on the floor makes him better than MJ who acceded to a team game plan/the triangle offense which could function to an extent without him.

Didn't you get the memo? To be goat your team cannot function without you. And your team have to be underdog to win finals or you at least get bonus points if rhey were.

Winning 2 3peats...no bonus

[Goomba3666]

Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

[twyzted]

Misty try to read challenge:

The 94 bulls also missed 20 combined games from their two stars and played a +4.7 srs when healthy in the regular season

Misty try to read challenge(again):

sweeping a team who's playoff lineup(accounting for injury and Price missing time) posted a 53-win pace(by record, +5.8! net differential but it's against below average comp)

Just quit while you're behind my guy

I was responding to your closing statement my guy.

The problem(for you) is the 1994 Bulls were also coasting. Hence why they were at +8 in the po's while their rs versions were at +5. Or, in "mystic-oscar speak": they were very good in the regular season when they tried, they were really really good in the postseason when they really really tried. Hope that helps!

Also adjusting SRS as you see fit to paint a narrative is hilarious. Do we make the same adjustments for MJ Bulls SRS to adjust the bunch of games that Rodman, Kucok, Pippen made in the 2nd 3peat runs?

Or we only do these scraping at the bottom of barrel adjustments when it favours your narrative against MJ?

Edit: just so I'm clear when I talked about injury depleted Cavs...I didn't only mean RS, I'm talking about Williams injury JUST before there series who was instrumental in Cavs charge at the end of RS. The cavs were too undersized my guy and u claiming that they were a 5.8 SRS is laughable and shows you look at numbers without context

The bulls in 94 didnt have a single game where both of grant or pippen were missing.

He also thinks that somehow a team with a 34-31 is somehow playing at a 53 win pace.

Using this srs based pace isnt what i would call a great stat.
The 94 bulls ended 55-27 but their srs adjusted pace has them at 49 win pace.

[Gregoire]

Whats wrong? Its obvious choice, MJ was better player.

[twyzted]

Stop baiting. For the first 8 pages there is no one making case for either.

I promise you, I'm not baiting anyone. I'm giving my honest opinion. You're welcome to disagree with me if you think pro-Jordan posters are making a better case than pro-LeBron ones. I just don't see it.

Looks to me that you are trying to bait. There was another thread the other day, its on page 2. That had a poll, jordan had 60%+ votes lebron 24%.

Why do you see the need for someone to make a case for Jordan since majority see him already as the GOAt? Not one of the pro lebron arguments made, make any case for him.

We get the classic lines
“Jordan didnt win without Pippen”
“Jordan is lucky he didnt play now because social media”

It's interesting that you feel the need to compile the amateur takes favoring LeBron, but completely dismiss the ones favoring Jordan. And there have been quite a few, I'm sure you'll agree. Do you think yours is an honest, objective summary of the thread? Are you sure you're not being influenced by your own subjective perspective when trying to paint the thread as only a bunch of casual opinions defending LeBron?

I quickly went through the thread to find these compeling arguments made for Lebron and outside of that link spamming i found none.

Then we get one guy coming in rambling about how he has been summoned.
Then pastes link to other discussion in other boards. Then writes an essay with his oppinion about how Jordan isnt better.
Posts no stats to back him up.

Here you can have all the stats you can't find in this thread (and you know it because you've participated in that thread): viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921

It's only logical that posters don't wanna copy and paste the same stuff, especially when the posts are so lengthy. And by the way, I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying those are very good arguments. Credit where credit is due.

No this arent all the stats. And its a weak attempt at making an argument by pasteing link to other threads. You should always atleast make a little effort to include stats and such when making an argument.

I refute all his points, back it up with numbers but no answer.

I've seen you reply, yes. Refuting is too strong a word, let's just say that your post merits an answer. Maybe copying it in the other thread? I encourage you to keep participating in that thread (in less hostile tone if possible) because some of us are greatly enjoying the insight and the deep analysis. I would never participate in that thread -or the PC board in general- because I don't have the expertise to blend in and not stick out like a sore thumb. But I do enjoy reading that subforum, and every new perspective will be welcomed.

Still no reply outside of this childish passive agreesive post

Saleri described and explained why he thought one side made better points. Twysted made a bunch of claims with no support beyond the fact that I haven't replied to them yet(even though I literally just replied to them in PC). Going at Saleri is just odd tbh

All my statements are backed up by data which i include, i answer all of his points. But still he says it has no support

And posting something in another thread on a diffrent board isnt answer anything in this thread.

And somehow you think Lebron stans make a better case. Not only that you also insult the ones making a case for Jordan as not knowledgable.

I think LeBron advocates are making a better case here, yes. Not everywhere, but in this thread. And forgive me if you felt insulted, but please don't misconstrue my words: nowhere did I say that pro-Jordan posters are less knowledgeable. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite: that there are some VERY knowledgeable posters out there who favor Jordan and they could make their case much better than I ever could.

What I said is that the arguments towards Jordan are, on average, more of the casual type (rings, one team, undefeated in the finals, scoring titles, etc). If you're not making such points, you shouldn't feel that my words were directed at you.

Well you said i wish more knowledgeble Jordan posters would comment.

Also im gonna add if 60%+ of people think Jordan is the goat and 25% lebron.
There is no need to make compelling argument for Jordan

That's one way to look at it, certainly. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

I could poke a few holes in that reasoning, for example pointing out that you'd be making the case that Drake is a better musician than Bach because his sales are much bigger. Are you comfortable defending that notion? Because if you're not, tread lightly when defending the notion that popular consensus is the ultimate judge on these kind of things.

Still, it's a perspective worth taking into account. I would feel more comfortable thinking that my criteria hasn't been imposed on me via peer pressure, but I can't deny it's a thing. And it counts, yes.

I see the point you are trying to make.
But to be clear, i see no argument for Lebron when looking at actually winning, stats, adv stats on bbref, achivements.
The only thing he has is longevity. So wowy, wowyr or what theyre called arent enough to make up the gap Jordan has already.

[MavsDirk41]

Its basically a we dont like the results of the poll so we are gonna try and find “metrics” or whatever to trash Jordan with an agenda but then say no “im unbiased”

[Salieri]

Looks to me that you are trying to bait.

Sucks to be you, then. I wasn't, and if you don't believe me then it's a you problem, not a me problem.

I quickly went through the thread to find these compeling arguments made for Lebron and outside of that link spamming i found none.

I guess it's a good thing that I already covered it with my very first post in this thread: I said I've seen good arguments in the PC board. Not here. See what happens when you actually read what you're trying to reply to? Good stuff.

Anyway, my point here was, it's interesting that you only saw casual takes favoring LeBron but not casual takes favoring MJ. You didn't even attempt to address that. I said that speaks to your own bias. And I stand by that opinion, even more now after you misconstrued my words once again.

No this arent all the stats. And its a weak attempt at making an argument by pasteing link to other threads. You should always atleast make a little effort to include stats and such when making an argument.

Wait, what? Now you're asking me to include stats to make a case for LeBron? Haven't I repeated at least 3 times that I have no dog in this fight? Let me be crystal clear so you don't try to twist my words again: I'm not trying to make a case for LeBron. I'm just judging other posters' arguments. So far, the average argument favoring MJ is less convincing than the average argument for LeBron. That's my opinion. And it's an opinion on the arguments made by others, not on who's the more impactful player. I am not judging the players, but the quality of the debate points made by either side.

And posting something in another thread on a diffrent board isnt answer anything in this thread.

Then I guess it's a good thing that I specifically stated that the arguments were not made here, but in the PC board. This is the second time I have to correct your fallacious narrative. Please pay more attention to the posts you're replying to?

Well you said i wish more knowledgeble Jordan posters would comment.

Yes, and you should agree with me if you think MJ has a better case.

Let me put it in an analogy: if you send your soldiers to fight in a current war and you arm 70% of them with spears and bows giving modern weapons only to 30% of your troops, you're gonna lose. And as someone neutral, I'd like to see your side better equipped so it's a fair fight.

Please notice that at no point I stated that you're one of the 70% instead of the 30. Why do you seem to think that, I don't know.

But to be clear, i see no argument for Lebron when looking at actually winning, stats, adv stats on bbref, achivements.
The only thing he has is longevity. So wowy, wowyr or what theyre called arent enough to make up the gap Jordan has already.

What you're saying here is, the arguments used by the other side don't convince you. Respectable, as I'm not trying to convince you that LeBron is better.

Can you respect other people saying that those arguments sound compelling? Even if they don't move you, they might move other people. Are you okay with that notion? Or do you have an absolutist approach where nobody disagreeing with your opinion is to be respected?

[twyzted]

Looks to me that you are trying to bait.

Sucks to be you, then. I wasn't, and if you don't believe me then it's a you problem, not a me problem.

Ok. I just felt you were trying to force conversation.

I quickly went through the thread to find these compeling arguments made for Lebron and outside of that link spamming i found none.

I guess it's a good thing that I already covered it with my very first post in this thread: I said I've seen good arguments in the PC board. Not here. See what happens when you actually read what you're trying to reply to? Good stuff.

Anyway, my point here was, it's interesting that you only saw casual takes favoring LeBron but not casual takes favoring MJ. You didn't even attempt to address that. I said that speaks to your own bias. And I stand by that opinion, even more now after you misconstrued my words once again.

Yes and i already said the PC board is notarious for being pro Lebron.

No i just said that i went through the thread quickly to find an argument for Lebron and only found the link spamming, never said a word of any casual takes for lebron or Jordan.

No this arent all the stats. And its a weak attempt at making an argument by pasteing link to other threads. You should always atleast make a little effort to include stats and such when making an argument.

Wait, what? Now you're asking me to include stats to make a case for LeBron? Haven't I repeated at least 3 times that I have no dog in this fight? Let me be crystal clear so you don't try to twist my words again: I'm not trying to make a case for LeBron. I'm just judging other posters' arguments. So far, the average argument favoring MJ is less convincing than the average argument for LeBron. That's my opinion. And it's an opinion on the arguments made by others, not on who's the more impactful player. I am not judging the players, but the quality of the debate points made by either side.

I think we have a missunderstanding here.
I wasnt talking about you.
I was talking about post #203
Where there are links to 13 diffrent threads. And that is what i call a weak argument, i suspect that im not the only one here who wants go sifting through diffrent threads.

And posting something in another thread on a diffrent board isnt answer anything in this thread.

Then I guess it's a good thing that I specifically stated that the arguments were not made here, but in the PC board. This is the second time I have to correct your fallacious narrative. Please pay more attention to the posts you're replying to?

I clearly am talking about this quote.

Saleri described and explained why he thought one side made better points. Twysted made a bunch of claims with no support beyond the fact that I haven't replied to them yet(even though I literally just replied to them in PC). Going at Saleri is just odd tbh

So no i wasnt refering to what you said.

Well you said i wish more knowledgeble Jordan posters would comment.

Yes, and you should agree with me if you think MJ has a better case.

Let me put it in an analogy: if you send your soldiers to fight in a current war and you arm 70% of them with spears and bows giving modern weapons only to 30% of your troops, you're gonna lose. And as someone neutral, I'd like to see your side better equipped so it's a fair fight.

Please notice that at no point I stated that you're one of the 70% instead of the 30. Why do you seem to think that, I don't know.

Yes but i already answered the guy who making a argument for Lebron, he hasnt answered back.

I have made many posts for Jordan, but usally like in this thread, the poster just doesnt respond back so i just see no gain in spending time in making posts that gets largly ignored anyway.

But to be clear, i see no argument for Lebron when looking at actually winning, stats, adv stats on bbref, achivements.
The only thing he has is longevity. So wowy, wowyr or what theyre called arent enough to make up the gap Jordan has already.

What you're saying here is, the arguments used by the other side don't convince you. Respectable, as I'm not trying to convince you that LeBron is better.

Can you respect other people saying that those arguments sound compelling? Even if they don't move you, they might move other people. Are you okay with that notion? Or do you have an absolutist approach where nobody disagreeing with your opinion is to be respected?

[/quote]

Yes i have not seen compeling argument for Lebron over Jordan for me, but if someone has lebron, kareem, russell or wilt over Jordan thats fine by me.

What i dont like which is mostly done by Lebron fans, is that their argument is that:
“90s sucked”
“Jordan couldnt win without Phil or Scottie”
Etc.

Basicly their argument is talking down Jordan/any other goat candidate achivements vs their guy.
Your candidate should have his achivements speak for themselfs, not belittleing the other guy.

I also dont like pasteing links when having arguments, like in the thread on pc board the convo between guys gets so long and you keep going back because the whole convo isnt included after a few posts. And it just makes it so much work to follow the convo.
Obviously maybe im just getting old and my attention span is ageing.

[michaelm]

double

[michaelm]

Stop baiting. For the first 8 pages there is no one making case for either.

I promise you, I'm not baiting anyone. I'm giving my honest opinion. You're welcome to disagree with me if you think pro-Jordan posters are making a better case than pro-LeBron ones. I just don't see it.

We get the classic lines
“Jordan didnt win without Pippen”
“Jordan is lucky he didnt play now because social media”

It's interesting that you feel the need to compile the amateur takes favoring LeBron, but completely dismiss the ones favoring Jordan. And there have been quite a few, I'm sure you'll agree. Do you think yours is an honest, objective summary of the thread? Are you sure you're not being influenced by your own subjective perspective when trying to paint the thread as only a bunch of casual opinions defending LeBron?

Then we get one guy coming in rambling about how he has been summoned.
Then pastes link to other discussion in other boards. Then writes an essay with his oppinion about how Jordan isnt better.
Posts no stats to back him up.

Here you can have all the stats you can't find in this thread (and you know it because you've participated in that thread): viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2257921

It's only logical that posters don't wanna copy and paste the same stuff, especially when the posts are so lengthy. And by the way, I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying those are very good arguments. Credit where credit is due.

I refute all his points, back it up with numbers but no answer.

I've seen you reply, yes. Refuting is too strong a word, let's just say that your post merits an answer. Maybe copying it in the other thread? I encourage you to keep participating in that thread (in less hostile tone if possible) because some of us are greatly enjoying the insight and the deep analysis. I would never participate in that thread -or the PC board in general- because I don't have the expertise to blend in and not stick out like a sore thumb. But I do enjoy reading that subforum, and every new perspective will be welcomed.

And somehow you think Lebron stans make a better case. Not only that you also insult the ones making a case for Jordan as not knowledgable.

I think LeBron advocates are making a better case here, yes. Not everywhere, but in this thread. And forgive me if you felt insulted, but please don't misconstrue my words: nowhere did I say that pro-Jordan posters are less knowledgeable. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite: that there are some VERY knowledgeable posters out there who favor Jordan and they could make their case much better than I ever could.

What I said is that the arguments towards Jordan are, on average, more of the casual type (rings, one team, undefeated in the finals, scoring titles, etc). If you're not making such points, you shouldn't feel that my words were directed at you.

Also im gonna add if 60%+ of people think Jordan is the goat and 25% lebron.
There is no need to make compelling argument for Jordan

That's one way to look at it, certainly. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

I could poke a few holes in that reasoning, for example pointing out that you'd be making the case that Drake is a better musician than Bach because his sales are much bigger. Are you comfortable defending that notion? Because if you're not, tread lightly when defending the notion that popular consensus is the ultimate judge on these kind of things.

Still, it's a perspective worth taking into account. I would feel more comfortable thinking that my criteria hasn't been imposed on me via peer pressure, but I can't deny it's a thing. And it counts, yes.

I guess the rest of us will just have to imagine what it is like to be at the Olympian height from which you look down on and evaluate we lesser posters who actually post arguments. I may have missed some of your posts, but i haven't seen a single contribution to the debate from you, I am a neutral fan who finds arguments for Lebron more compelling not actually qualifying as an argument. I have seen lazier takes on a sports forum admittedly, someone once told me there was a very compelling case for his point of view, and all I had to do was watch a 45 minute podcast which contained them, as he didn't have time to post any arguments himself.

[Lala870]

My vote still goes to the white mamba himself

[mccluskey]

it's never really been a contest, MJ is still the greatest of all time.

Bron is a hell of a player and should make anybody's all-time top five, though.

[michaelm]

it's never really been a contest, MJ is still the greatest of all time.

Bron is a hell of a player and should make anybody's all-time top five, though.

Both are the greatest of their era, and you can't really say much more than that. I am getting old now, and MJ was the guy who got me interested in the NBA, so I guess I have a bias his way, but I do have a preference for team play, which makes Bill Russell the ultimate basketball player for me.

[Taj FTW]

it's never really been a contest, MJ is still the greatest of all time.

Bron is a hell of a player and should make anybody's all-time top five, though.

Both are the greatest of their era, and you can't really say much more than that. I am getting old now, and MJ was the guy who got me interested in the NBA, so I guess I have a bias his way, but I do have a preference for team play, which makes Bill Russell the ultimate basketball player for me.

Amen to that. It's so hard to compare across eras. They're both GOATs. It's just ridiculous when you see people saying "not even close - MJ" and then offer no statistical analysis with it. It happened multiple times in this thread, including the post above yours. Whenever somebody says the GOAT argument "isn't close" and one player is far above the others, you know not to take that opinion seriously.

[ShootersShoot]

This is obviously subjective, I just hope someone can one day come along and challenge either guys for goat

[dcstanley]

it'll never change tbh, MJ is untouchable

Nobody is untouchable. The bar is insanely high though, and Lebron didn't clear it.

Someone some day will probably do it, but it may be in the distant future.

Lebron has and he's done it convincingly. He just isn't capable of overcoming 30+ years of marketing.

This shouldn't surprise anyone; LeBron came closer than anyone else to dethroning the GOAT, but even sustained marketing and press onslaughts weren't enough to sway public opinion at-large. He'll have to settle for top-three status alongside Kareem, which is incredible and amazing. Imagine being at-worst the third-best person to ever do something.

He won't keep his top 3. Lebron is currently enjoying recency bias. He will drop further down after retirement, like what happened to Kobe.

you lebron haters are utterly clueless.

[dcstanley]

No one has ever explained to me how LeBron’s teams basically collapsing without him on the floor makes him better than MJ who acceded to a team game plan/the triangle offense which could function to an extent without him.

You want us to explain why the 1994 Bulls winning 55 games and pushing the eventual Eastern champs to 7 games with Pete Myers replacing Jordan in the starting lineup makes him better than Lebron? The Bulls were a legitimate championship contender with a replacement level player filling a GOAT sized hole in the starting lineup. Not sure how details like that are a notch under his belt.

[Gregoire]

He is the GOAT everywhere except the PC board which is literally filled with Lebron fans.

Never take the opinions on there seriously when it comes to this topic.

The official Lebron thread on there has 180 pages, pretty sure no other thread for any other player has 30 pages.

Yes, and it's only last 5 years this disease progressed in PC board, a lot of 15years old fanboys just goes berserk to defend their idol . Some of them really talked themselves to the point they think LeBron have better peak prime and is better scorer