NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (part 5 - The Final-er MVP Countdown!)

[skones]

I disagree about Giannis case, as I said earlier, he's having worse numbers in many categories compared to previous years. This is a season where efficiency has gone up league wide, from 56.6% TS to 58.1 TS, yet Giannis has gone from 63.3% TS last two seasons to 60.5% TS this season, along with other stats such as win shares, BPM, etc, all down compared to years ago. If Jokic and Embiid are as good or better compared to past seasons, I don't see then how Giannis should be in the conversation, provided Giannis was not MVP in the past two seasons and was actually in 3rd or 4th place. Record alone shouldn't automatically propel a player that is showing a worse level into MVP imo. I mean contention sure, but a more distant 3rd.

The context of the load he's had all season with Khris out of the lineup matters here. Looking at the numbers without context? You might as well be boxscore watching. That's THE case, no Khris, mix and matched lineups all season long, and he still goes out and wins the most games of anyone.

[Profound23]

I disagree about Giannis case, as I said earlier, he's having worse numbers in many categories compared to previous years. This is a season where efficiency has gone up league wide, from 56.6% TS to 58.1 TS, yet Giannis has gone from 63.3% TS last two seasons to 60.5% TS this season, along with other stats such as win shares, BPM, etc, all down compared to years ago. If Jokic and Embiid are as good or better compared to past seasons, I don't see then how Giannis should be in the conversation, provided Giannis was not MVP in the past two seasons and was actually in 3rd or 4th place. Record alone shouldn't automatically propel a player that is showing a worse level into MVP imo. I mean contention sure, but a more distant 3rd.

The context of the load he's had all season with Khris out of the lineup matters here. Looking at the numbers without context? You might as well be boxscore watching. That's THE case, no Khris, mix and matched lineups all season long, and he still goes out and wins the most games of anyone.

Yep, Khris missed half the season and Jrue was out for various injuries, illnesses, and family concerns while Giannis continued to carry the team.

I don't care if they give it to Embiid though, he deserves it too. Just don't think it should go to Jokic.

Personally I would say:
1.) Giannis
2.) Embiid
3.) Jokic
4.) Tatum
5.) Sabonis

in that exact order. Luka would have been in that conversation if not for the addition of Kyrie just completely messing up everything. Still crazy that so many foreign born players are in that top 5-7 range for MVP.

[greekbuck34]

In the future if anyone asks you what is vote fatique the simplest answer to this is :

If its a really close race, and this season it truly is really close between those three players in terms of overall impact, it will go to the guy who hasn't won one yet.

Jokic needed something spactacular to win a 3rd one but he was worse after the ASB, his team was healthy this season, the west conference was far weaker and he had some really bad nights either against contenders or defensively in general.

Giannis missed a lot of games, he also had some low nights against contenders and he had 2 starters having career season despite missing Middleton for most of the season.

So it will go to Embiid who had similar MVP impact, he is the top scorer, he had some really memorable games against contenders and has zero vote fatique.

[HardenToSixers]

not that anyone cares but here is my take on this. Case for and against each guy

If I had a vote and was an unbias person, I'd vote for Giannis. Best player. Best Team. I think thats how it should go unless the competition is having a legendary season (see Westbrook triple double season) or the top guy won it the prior year. Its why I didn't think Jokic deserved one of his last two because his team wasn't great and you can throw all the vorp and snorps at me , the stats while great weren't legendary status either IMO. But even then its not like it was Nashian level steal job either.

Jokic is great and the Nuggets are doo doo butter without him lol. As a fellow fat boi, what Jokic does is incredible. THAT being said, past legislation aginst other guys has to come into play now. He can't be the 3 time in a row MVP after two years of losing in the first round when Giannis was getting dinged for losing in later rounds. The best team in the west doe thing rings hollow when Biid didn't win it when the Sixers were the best in East because then suddenly the records being close mattered. They changed the caculus on Russ when they began to notice his triple doubles weren't as impressive anymore so thats out the window. And Harden got dinged for his lack of defense so its only fair for Jokic to get the same. It would be a double standard on too many fronts IMO thats why i don't think he should win it.

Embiid's case is actually the flimsiest one yet of his last 3 years lol. Yeah he's leading the league in scoring...but scoring is a bit inflated this season. The Sixers are 3rd in the East but they also have a winning record without him for once (no clue how tho lol). Also this recent good run just so happened to coincide with Harden's return too. I also don't think the Sixers are good lol. This team is a second round flameout waiting to happen.

Giannis' case against is that the Bucks also won a lot of games without him and the fact that he may be the third best defender on his own team. He has a fellow all star and two former all stars. A DPOTY contender. And the Bucks allow him more rest than any of the other guys in that he plays around 32 mins a night IIRC. Not an advance stat guy but i think I saw something that Jrue has actually been their best guy and not Giannis.

So yeah each guy has valid points against them beyond "i don't like him and want my guy to win" and because of that if it was up to me I'd go with the tie breaker of better record in favor of Giannis rn.

As a Sixers fan, I hope Biid wins it. For one it will be the only joy this season will bring lol...And we can begin to run a modern offense once he gets it and stops trying to prove that he's mvp so damn much. He can claim he doesn't care as much as he wants...he cares....a lot. I would. Dude got drafted; missed two seasons; lost his brother; lost the gm who drafted him for a gm who hated him and not so openly but openly said as much; got told he was a fat piece of ****; had his team hiijacked by a guy who hates basketball but had the team still built around his needs; got Kawhii'd; lost the best friend/teammate in favor of the aforementioned basketball hater and did so to sign a guy who plays the same position as him; had basketball hater quit on him; and his own body is a ticking time bomb lol. **** sucks and getting the MVP probably would make all of that worth it. Its validation for getting past all of that if nothing else. So I need it for him...but if it does go to Giannis...i'd get it...wouldn't be happy but I'd understand it more than giving it to Jokic again..

I agree. Although should be Luka because he's the best player in the league.

Maybe if we got rid of the defensive side of the game.

ironic on part 5, page 16 about how Jokic is the greatest player in NBA history.

defense isn't as important from the wing position, especially if you're a generationally great scorer. isolation scoring pays the bills more than anything else in the league.

[Purch]

I agree. Although should be Luka because he's the best player in the league.

Maybe if we got rid of the defensive side of the game.

ironic on part 5, page 16 about how Jokic is the greatest player in NBA history.

defense isn't as important from the wing position, especially if you're a generationally great scorer. isolation scoring pays the bills more than anything else in the league.

My point is, if you want to say Luka has eclipsed Giannis, his offensive impact has to be so much higher than Giannis that it makes me forget how dominant a defender Giannis is.

[Bum Adebayo]

If its a really close race, and this season it truly is really close between those three players in terms of overall impact, it will go to the guy who hasn't won one yet.

Yeah I think it's fair because if not, imagine a player just being marginally better for 4 seasons compared to another player, the first getting 4 MVP and the second 0 MVP, it makes it seem like first player was much better when that's not the case. I think next year we will see players like Doncic or Tatum in this situation and if they play amazing I would like them to win it.

[Bornstellar]

I still think Jokic deserves it and don't think the last few games of the regular season suddenly have more meaning when the Nuggets are cruising in the West because they probably have the #1 seed on lock. Heck, Giannis probably deserves it more than Embiid.

Embiid is a magnificent player. He is having another incredible season and nothing can take that away. But is he really the most valuable single player in the NBA to his team? I don't think so. The Sixers would probably still be a playoff team without him (lower seed obviously) whereas the Nuggets would likely be hovering around the 11-13th seed in the West without Jokic. I would take Harden, Maxey, and Harris over current Murray, MPJ, and Gordon as my supporting cast 10/10 times

That said...I think Embiid is going to win it. Too much media lobbying, too much nonsense discourse about Jokic's skin color, and Giannis has already won twice + the FMVP. It's a narrative award and they'll give it to the guy who hasn't won yet in a close race

[eyeatoma]

I still think Jokic deserves it and don't think the last few games of the regular season suddenly have more meaning when the Nuggets are cruising in the West because they probably have the #1 seed on lock. Heck, Giannis probably deserves it more than Embiid.

Embiid is a magnificent player. He is having another incredible season and nothing can take that away. But is he really the most valuable single player in the NBA to his team? I don't think so. The Sixers would probably still be a playoff team without him (lower seed obviously) whereas the Nuggets would likely be hovering around the 11-13th seed in the West without Jokic. I would take Harden, Maxey, and Harris over current Murray, MPJ, and Gordon as my supporting cast 10/10 times

That said...I think Embiid is going to win it. Too much media lobbying, too much nonsense discourse about Jokic's skin color, and Giannis has already won twice + the FMVP. It's a narrative award and they'll give it to the guy who hasn't won yet in a close race

The Sixers would not be a playoff team without Embiid. Their defense is abysmal. I don't care about their record this season without him. Small sample size. They would be like the mavs.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

[Bornstellar]

I still think Jokic deserves it and don't think the last few games of the regular season suddenly have more meaning when the Nuggets are cruising in the West because they probably have the #1 seed on lock. Heck, Giannis probably deserves it more than Embiid.

Embiid is a magnificent player. He is having another incredible season and nothing can take that away. But is he really the most valuable single player in the NBA to his team? I don't think so. The Sixers would probably still be a playoff team without him (lower seed obviously) whereas the Nuggets would likely be hovering around the 11-13th seed in the West without Jokic. I would take Harden, Maxey, and Harris over current Murray, MPJ, and Gordon as my supporting cast 10/10 times

That said...I think Embiid is going to win it. Too much media lobbying, too much nonsense discourse about Jokic's skin color, and Giannis has already won twice + the FMVP. It's a narrative award and they'll give it to the guy who hasn't won yet in a close race

The Sixers would not be a playoff team without Embiid. Their defense is abysmal. I don't care about their record this season without him. Small sample size. They would be like the mavs.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

Kings have the 24th ranked defense this season and they are a playoff team. Heck, the Knicks, Warriors, and Hawks all have bottom-half of the NBA level defenses (18th, 19h, and 22nd, respectively) and they are playoff teams. Team's defense means little in the regular season these days. They would still be better 100x better than Denver on offense and might be marginally worse on defense, so the point is kinda moot anyway

[eyeatoma]

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[Kurtz]

Giannis sitting tonight, almost surely sitting April 9th too. He's not gonna make the 65 games threshold.

Odds have seen a massive jump since earlier today - Bet365 now has it at -1400 Embiid, +900 Joker, +1600 Giannis. Sharp/market maker money must have been coming in hot and heavy on Embiid.

I think that's officially a wrap.

[Purch]

Giannis sitting tonight, almost surely sitting April 9th too. He's not gonna make the 65 games threshold.

Odds have seen a massive jump since earlier today - Bet365 now has it at -1400 Embiid, +900 Joker, +1600 Giannis. Sharp/market maker money must have been coming in hot and heavy on Embiid.

I think that's officially a wrap.

The Bucks have been exactly as dominant as I anticipated coming into the season. I'm feeling real comfortable with my pick of them winning it all again.

[Wolfgang630]

Giannis sitting again. There’s really no point in him playing anymore since this race is over

[kuclas]

Is this the first season embiid’s
Team has a winning record in games he hasn’t played?

That’s what people are trying to angle why he doesn’t deserve it because his team is stronger this season so can win games without him

What about 2020-21 season ?

What about 2021-22 season with sixers losing more games when embiid sat out. What embiid more valuable to his team last season cause they lost more with him out?

That’s why this season is weird. For embiid to get mvp this season. But not last season. It’s like a makeup up mvp for last season.

[YamaChan]

This award would've gone to KD if idiots would stop crashing into his planted leg when he's not involved in the play.

[Wolfgang630]

YamaChan lmao. There’s a name I haven’t seen in forever

[GeorgeSears]

I didn't even think this was one of Jokic's best years. He was an absolute beast last season and the year before. I felt he played way too passively for long stretches this year, and he was often forcing the ball to his teammates which led to many careless turnovers. He also missed more games. His usg% was down. I just found it fascinating that he was still in the MVP conversation till the end.

Embiid is definitely a worthy MVP. He played like he wanted it.

[Doctor MJ]

In the future if anyone asks you what is vote fatique the simplest answer to this is :

If its a really close race, and this season it truly is really close between those three players in terms of overall impact, it will go to the guy who hasn't won one yet.

Jokic needed something spactacular to win a 3rd one but he was worse after the ASB, his team was healthy this season, the west conference was far weaker and he had some really bad nights either against contenders or defensively in general.

Giannis missed a lot of games, he also had some low nights against contenders and he had 2 starters having career season despite missing Middleton for most of the season.

So it will go to Embiid who had similar MVP impact, he is the top scorer, he had some really memorable games against contenders and has zero vote fatique.

So there's truth in what you say, but I'll take it in another direction:

"Voter fatigue" in the modern NBA refers to the effect of the intense vitriol and character assassination thrown at MVP voters by others in the media (including social media) when one player continues to be the most valuable player in the league for multiple regular seasons in a row.

People were asking "Where is the voter fatigue?!!" earlier in the season as if it's something simply exists in the head of the voter, but the fatigue doesn't come from within the voter, it comes from the sort of zealots who begin by asking questions like, "Where is the voter fatigue?!!".

[Peregrine01]

Good for Embiid. He deserves it and was an absolute monster this last stretch of games.

As for vitriolic, toxic and ultimately racist discourse surrounding Jokic and the MVP discussion, it definitely turned me off from the NBA. It was disgusting how ESPN (which prides itself on moral righteousness at every turn) enabled it and even encouraged it at times to get views.

[Wolfgang630]

Good for Embiid. He deserves it and was an absolute monster this last stretch of games.

As for vitriolic, toxic and ultimately racist discourse surrounding Jokic and the MVP discussion, it definitely turned me off from the NBA. It was disgusting how ESPN (which prides itself on moral righteousness at every turn) enabled it and even encouraged it at times to get views.

Perkins should’ve been suspended at least, but meh it brought in a lot more views so they were probably happy.