What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[Taj FTW]

These are insane numbers when teams were scoring much much less than today. Scoring <100 was much more common. It’s been said a million times but with the way fouls are also called today…it’s easy to think he’d absolutely dominate todays game. Maybe more than he did in the 80s/90s

There wasn't a season in the 80s where the average PPG was below 107. Can you quantify how much more common <100 games were?

I’m sure you can. I’m not going to. But feel free to pull the number of games where a team scored less than 100 points a game. And then another cut of the the average PPG today vs then. I’m sure it’ll help

So you're just talking out of your ass. Got it. Just eyeballing it, the PPG average in the NBA the past 5 season is around 112. The PPG average in the 80s was around 109. Wow, a whopping 3 points! Is that what you mean by teams scoring "much much less than today"?

[JordansBulls]

There wasn't a season in the 80s where the average PPG was below 107. Can you quantify how much more common <100 games were?

I’m sure you can. I’m not going to. But feel free to pull the number of games where a team scored less than 100 points a game. And then another cut of the the average PPG today vs then. I’m sure it’ll help

So you're just talking out of your ass. Got it.

How about me?

Lebron had Shaq as well lost in round 2 with HCA, while Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq and Wade won a title with Shaq. Lebron also had peak Duncan and Iverson and won bronze medal for America.
Lebron has also lost to every elite big in his era. Lost to Dwight, KG, Dirk while having HCA. Lost to Duncan, Durant, Jokic and then even lost to Devin Booker who put a career high of 47 on him.

Not only that. A guy in his own era has as many titles and beat him head to head more that came in after him without switching teams. And then we compare him Jordan all the while Lebron won bronze medals multiple times despite playing with peak Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson and lost with HCA to Dwight Howard, KG, Dirk all of which were career losers at the time. He also missed the playoffs as much as titles won and would have been more had a mid season trade not happened this year when was 13th in the conference.

Prove me wrong!

[Taj FTW]

I’m sure you can. I’m not going to. But feel free to pull the number of games where a team scored less than 100 points a game. And then another cut of the the average PPG today vs then. I’m sure it’ll help

So you're just talking out of your ass. Got it.

How about me?

Lebron had Shaq as well lost in round 2 with HCA, while Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq and Wade won a title with Shaq. Lebron also had peak Duncan and Iverson and won bronze medal for America.
Lebron has also lost to every elite big in his era. Lost to Dwight, KG, Dirk while having HCA. Lost to Duncan, Durant, Jokic and then even lost to Devin Booker who put a career high of 47 on him.

Not only that. A guy in his own era has as many titles and beat him head to head more that came in after him without switching teams. And then we compare him Jordan all the while Lebron won bronze medals multiple times despite playing with peak Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson and lost with HCA to Dwight Howard, KG, Dirk all of which were career losers at the time. He also missed the playoffs as much as titles won and would have been more had a mid season trade not happened this year when was 13th in the conference.

Prove me wrong!

You're an absolute NBA forum legend JB. You're.known across all the major NBA forums, and I mean that seriously. Nobody can go toe to toe with you in an NBA debate. HCA!

[jerok]

Most of them arent even old enough to have watched Jordan

Nobody here is old enough to remember watching Wilt's entire career. Therefore, nobody can say any player is better than Wilt. Rock solid logic.

Maybe Wilt is the goat kid. Maybe Russell is the goat. I never watched them play but i did watch Jordan and James play and Jordan is better.

If you are gonna run your arrogant mouth on here about substansive data backing James over Jordan you better put it on here too.

Since you watched both MJ and LeBron play, it looks like you have a lot of wisdom.

Could you please explain to us why MJ didn't do anything in his career without Pippen and Phil? Why could he only win when he had the most stacked team in the league?

And please explain why Lebron keeps going on deep playoff runs, with different players and coaches , super teams or not?

Please don't try to judge the questions, as you seem to know a lot a out basketball, we would be very happy to be enlightened with your knowledge.

[JordansBulls]

Nobody here is old enough to remember watching Wilt's entire career. Therefore, nobody can say any player is better than Wilt. Rock solid logic.

Maybe Wilt is the goat kid. Maybe Russell is the goat. I never watched them play but i did watch Jordan and James play and Jordan is better.

If you are gonna run your arrogant mouth on here about substansive data backing James over Jordan you better put it on here too.

Since you watched both MJ and LeBron play, it looks like you have a lot of wisdom.

Could you please explain to us why MJ didn't do anything in his career without Pippen and Phil? Why could he only win when he had the most stacked team in the league?

And please explain why Lebron keeps going on deep playoff runs, with different players and coaches , super teams or not?

Please don't try to judge the questions, as you seem to know a lot a out basketball, we would be very happy to be enlightened with your knowledge.

Pippen was a role player when he came to the Bulls and Phil Jackson was a CBA coach. Had Phil coached someone else prior and did something then you can use that logic. Hell Pippen with Hakeem and Barkley lost in round 1.
Lebron lost in round 2 with Shaq with HCA. He won bronze medal with peak Duncan and Iverson. He lost with hca to Dwight who was a career loser. Steph has as many titles as him in less years and beat him head to head more.

[Cmalic2]

Highest win share / 48 ever, 6 of the top 10 VORP seasons of all time (including the highest VORP ever in a season), second highest bpm i believe of all time. Then all the other stuff people typically mention (highest ppg, defensive player of the year, 6 championships and 6 final mvps). Even in the years he wasn't winning, he was the best player in the league based on vorp/bpm metrics.

[Yeggo Poleggo]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

Literally all of it.

[jerok]

Pippen won 1 playoff series in 94 without Jordan, when he had Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Kerr, Paxson, Cartwright, and Longley.

Wade won a championship without Lebron.

AD was fantastic in the 2018 playoffs, he swept Dame, he just couldn’t beat the KD Warriors.

06 Wade: 28, 6, and 6, 59.3 TS%, 26.9 PER
18 AD: 30, 13, and 2, 58.4 TS%, 25.8 PER
94 Pippen: 23, 8, and 5, 52.1 TS%, 22.8 PER

I guess you could say Pippen went to the WCF in 2000, but that’s kind of like saying Love went to the Finals in 2023.

Pippen lost in the first round in 99 with Hakeem and Barkley.

Tell me you didn't watch 2000 WCF without telling me you didn't watch it.

[jerok]

Maybe Wilt is the goat kid. Maybe Russell is the goat. I never watched them play but i did watch Jordan and James play and Jordan is better.

If you are gonna run your arrogant mouth on here about substansive data backing James over Jordan you better put it on here too.

Since you watched both MJ and LeBron play, it looks like you have a lot of wisdom.

Could you please explain to us why MJ didn't do anything in his career without Pippen and Phil? Why could he only win when he had the most stacked team in the league?

And please explain why Lebron keeps going on deep playoff runs, with different players and coaches , super teams or not?

Please don't try to judge the questions, as you seem to know a lot a out basketball, we would be very happy to be enlightened with your knowledge.

Pippen was a role player when he came to the Bulls and Phil Jackson was a CBA coach. Had Phil coached someone else prior and did something then you can use that logic. Hell Pippen with Hakeem and Barkley lost in round 1.
Lebron lost in round 2 with Shaq with HCA. He won bronze medal with peak Duncan and Iverson. He lost with hca to Dwight who was a career loser. Steph has as many titles as him in less years and beat him head to head more.

Sounds like excuses to me.

Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaw and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles.

We know Lebron has failures, and he gets grilled with them. He lost in Olympics, ok we count that against him.
He lost to Dwight in ECF. Sure, We count that against him.

But answer the questions don't dance around it.

Why did MJ not do anything without Pippen and Phil?
And how come LeBron went on deep playoff runs with different players and coaches, super teams or not?

[Ugalde]

jordan 6 rings in 15 years.

lebron got 4 rings in 20 years.

lebron also literally just joined super team after super team and still couldn't catch jordan.

[Ugalde]

Since you watched both MJ and LeBron play, it looks like you have a lot of wisdom.

Could you please explain to us why MJ didn't do anything in his career without Pippen and Phil? Why could he only win when he had the most stacked team in the league?

And please explain why Lebron keeps going on deep playoff runs, with different players and coaches , super teams or not?

Please don't try to judge the questions, as you seem to know a lot a out basketball, we would be very happy to be enlightened with your knowledge.

Pippen was a role player when he came to the Bulls and Phil Jackson was a CBA coach. Had Phil coached someone else prior and did something then you can use that logic. Hell Pippen with Hakeem and Barkley lost in round 1.
Lebron lost in round 2 with Shaq with HCA. He won bronze medal with peak Duncan and Iverson. He lost with hca to Dwight who was a career loser. Steph has as many titles as him in less years and beat him head to head more.

Sounds like excuses to me.

Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaw and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles.

We know Lebron has failures, and he gets grilled with them. He lost in Olympics, ok we count that against him.
He lost to Dwight in ECF. Sure, We count that against him.

But answer the questions don't dance around it.

Why did MJ not do anything without Pippen and Phil?
And how come LeBron went on deep playoff runs with different players and coaches, super teams or not?

you keep asking that question like it means anything. jordan didn't do anything without them because you need a team to win. when jordan got a good team he won six rings. lebron has jumped for superstar filled team to superstar filled team and has won two less rings in 5 more years.

[Taj FTW]

Pippen was a role player when he came to the Bulls and Phil Jackson was a CBA coach. Had Phil coached someone else prior and did something then you can use that logic. Hell Pippen with Hakeem and Barkley lost in round 1.
Lebron lost in round 2 with Shaq with HCA. He won bronze medal with peak Duncan and Iverson. He lost with hca to Dwight who was a career loser. Steph has as many titles as him in less years and beat him head to head more.

Sounds like excuses to me.

Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaw and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles.

We know Lebron has failures, and he gets grilled with them. He lost in Olympics, ok we count that against him.
He lost to Dwight in ECF. Sure, We count that against him.

But answer the questions don't dance around it.

Why did MJ not do anything without Pippen and Phil?
And how come LeBron went on deep playoff runs with different players and coaches, super teams or not?

you keep asking that question like it means anything. jordan didn't do anything without them because you need a team to win. when jordan got a good team he won six rings. lebron has jumped for superstar filled team to superstar filled team and has won two less rings in 5 more years.

If you replace LeBron with MJ, how rings does MJ get? Does he beat the Mavs? Probably. Does he beat the Warriors? Nope. It's a wash.

[jerok]

Pippen was a role player when he came to the Bulls and Phil Jackson was a CBA coach. Had Phil coached someone else prior and did something then you can use that logic. Hell Pippen with Hakeem and Barkley lost in round 1.
Lebron lost in round 2 with Shaq with HCA. He won bronze medal with peak Duncan and Iverson. He lost with hca to Dwight who was a career loser. Steph has as many titles as him in less years and beat him head to head more.

Sounds like excuses to me.

Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaw and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles.

We know Lebron has failures, and he gets grilled with them. He lost in Olympics, ok we count that against him.
He lost to Dwight in ECF. Sure, We count that against him.

But answer the questions don't dance around it.

Why did MJ not do anything without Pippen and Phil?
And how come LeBron went on deep playoff runs with different players and coaches, super teams or not?

you keep asking that question like it means anything. jordan didn't do anything without them because you need a team to win. when jordan got a good team he won six rings. lebron has jumped for superstar filled team to superstar filled team and has won two less rings in 5 more years.

Nice, So one of the criteria to be GOAT is win only when you have the best team, and do absolutely nothing without it?

I also said super team or not, Lebron has gone on deep playoff runs.
Don't dance around the questions, man up and answer them.

[twyzted]

Sounds like excuses to me.

Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaw and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles.

We know Lebron has failures, and he gets grilled with them. He lost in Olympics, ok we count that against him.
He lost to Dwight in ECF. Sure, We count that against him.

But answer the questions don't dance around it.

Why did MJ not do anything without Pippen and Phil?
And how come LeBron went on deep playoff runs with different players and coaches, super teams or not?

you keep asking that question like it means anything. jordan didn't do anything without them because you need a team to win. when jordan got a good team he won six rings. lebron has jumped for superstar filled team to superstar filled team and has won two less rings in 5 more years.

If you replace LeBron with MJ, how rings does MJ get? Does he beat the Mavs? Probably. Does he beat the Warriors? Nope. It's a wash.

And you think that Lebron would win 6 titles with the bulls?

[Tottery]

Is winning not considered "data" anymore? It gets tiresome listing Jordan's resume. It speaks for itself.

[Taj FTW]

you keep asking that question like it means anything. jordan didn't do anything without them because you need a team to win. when jordan got a good team he won six rings. lebron has jumped for superstar filled team to superstar filled team and has won two less rings in 5 more years.

If you replace LeBron with MJ, how rings does MJ get? Does he beat the Mavs? Probably. Does he beat the Warriors? Nope. It's a wash.

And you think that Lebron would win 6 titles with the bulls?

Without question. And that's not even factoring in that LeBron wouldn't be quitting on the team.

[DonaldSanders]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

Not true, thread polls on MJ vs. LeBron here generally have roughly a 2/3rds MJ preference.

Is winning not considered "data" anymore? It gets tiresome listing Jordan's resume. It speaks for itself.

I like advanced stats and all, but the point of the game is to win. How much a player influences winning is not 100% quantifiable. Jordan took the Bulls to two 3-peats, we have only seen one since and it took one of the GOAT Duos to do it, much less two. It's a level of dominance LeBron never came close to. For most of us that's it, best player in the league for a long time and the highest heights of winning in the modern era. LeBron tried to create multiple super teams and just couldn't get close, at some point winning has to matter. You can't say LeBron didn't have the supporting cast, he made sure he had it many many times.

If you get too focused on just stats, you can start making arguments that CP3 was better than Magic, which is just absurd. Watch the games, see who and how they won, and also look at stats.

[twyzted]

If you replace LeBron with MJ, how rings does MJ get? Does he beat the Mavs? Probably. Does he beat the Warriors? Nope. It's a wash.

And you think that Lebron would win 6 titles with the bulls?

Without question. And that's not even factoring in that LeBron wouldn't be quitting on the team.

Explain 2010 playoffs and off season.
Explain 2014.
Explain 2018.

Lebron isnt good enough a shooter to co-exist with pippen.
He is a career sub 40% outside of the paint.

He wont win in 93, 97&98.

[AussieCeltic]

So you're just talking out of your ass. Got it.

How about me?

Lebron had Shaq as well lost in round 2 with HCA, while Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq and Wade won a title with Shaq. Lebron also had peak Duncan and Iverson and won bronze medal for America.
Lebron has also lost to every elite big in his era. Lost to Dwight, KG, Dirk while having HCA. Lost to Duncan, Durant, Jokic and then even lost to Devin Booker who put a career high of 47 on him.

Not only that. A guy in his own era has as many titles and beat him head to head more that came in after him without switching teams. And then we compare him Jordan all the while Lebron won bronze medals multiple times despite playing with peak Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson and lost with HCA to Dwight Howard, KG, Dirk all of which were career losers at the time. He also missed the playoffs as much as titles won and would have been more had a mid season trade not happened this year when was 13th in the conference.

Prove me wrong!

You're an absolute NBA forum legend JB. You're.known across all the major NBA forums, and I mean that seriously. Nobody can go toe to toe with you in an NBA debate. HCA!

Its funny you're still masquerading as a Bulls fan when we all know you're just a Lebron stan. Over 3/4's of your post are about Lebron

[stepic]

If you replace LeBron with MJ, how rings does MJ get? Does he beat the Mavs? Probably. Does he beat the Warriors? Nope. It's a wash.

And you think that Lebron would win 6 titles with the bulls?

Without question. And that's not even factoring in that LeBron wouldn't be quitting on the team.

lol, yeah LeBron famously has never quit on his team before