Jokic is the best player since Jordan

[Sgt Major]

Yeah, I like how we went from "Is he as good as Okafor?" to "Is he as good as Porzingis?" to "Is he as good as Kareem?"

[JLM]

This is ridiculous. I love Joker, but Shaq was such an anomaly in this game. There was no answer to him. Pure dominance. Defensively, offensively…Joker needs a lot more years to catch up to him, for now, its not really up for debate. A ring this year and maybe another 2 in his career and then maybe we can have a discussion.

Well what is the answer for Jokic?

[Pistol_Pete]

This is ridiculous. I love Joker, but Shaq was such an anomaly in this game. There was no answer to him. Pure dominance. Defensively, offensively…Joker needs a lot more years to catch up to him, for now, its not really up for debate. A ring this year and maybe another 2 in his career and then maybe we can have a discussion.

Well what is the answer for Jokic?

There is none.

All I’m saying is, its still early in Jokic’s career. Let his career blossom and then we can compare him to the absolute greats of the game if it warrants doing so. Joker with 1 ring is not enough to measure up to Shaq. In 3-4 years time, if Joker continues on his trajectory, we may look back at this post and laugh - maybe he’ll have surpassed everyone ? Either way, too early to tell.

[Synciere]

The level of standom in this thread is embarrassing.

[Marvin Martian]

People care way too much about offense. It is clear that defenses are not as good as years prior. Today we have so many players putting up crazy numbers.

Jokic is a good defender but he won't make any all defense teams. That needs to be considered

[PedroFlu]

Jokic is the best player i've ever seen play the game, since I started watching in 2003.

People can say LeBron, but Jokic did what LeBron couldn't, lead his nobody team to promised land, and didn't need to team up with 2 all-nba players to do it.

He doesn't need to because he is the dominant center, he is the dominant pg, and he is the dominant shooter. He kills you with size, with strength, from inside, midrange and the 3. He's Duncan and Dirk on offense, but has LeBrons feel and passing IQ except it's actually a level better Like at this point its kind of rude to not admit Jokic is the best playmaker since Magic, and easily the best of the 21st century.

As the OP states, from a pure skill and talent standpoint, minus all the awards and what not, and this isn't even a serious question. You could try and argue LeBron, but the argument would have to be that LBJs defense makes up the difference between Jokics shooting, passing, inside dominance, and rebounding.

Centers because of their size are always favored in a game that is size dependant. Their only knock is they need someone to create for them. Jokic is really the only one that solved that puzzle, and no ones been able to solve him.

U know you're goat level talent when your only knock is racist people saying big fat white boy cant defend, and "ohh wait till he plays a team that spams the pick and roll!!"

I agree. I'm a hardcore LeBron fan, but Jokic's peak is clearly - clearly - over LeBron's. It's also better, more complete and more dominant than Curry's, Kobe's, and also Shaq's.

I only watched Jordan live in 97-98; it wasnt his peak anymore. If I recall correctly, this Jokic is clearly better than that Jordan.

As I said before, I have a hard time even trying to think about a better or more dominant peak. It's absolutely the best I've seen, and Im sure it definitely could be the best ever. People will take it seriously or not depending on the number of championships he'll win.

[PedroFlu]

Here's the thing with Jokic v prime shaq: Jokic is basically Shaq and Kobe at the *same damn time*. When you average 30 ppg on +9 TS% in the playoffs, you're scoring at Shaw-level efficiency, but the difference is, Jokic is a good free throw shooter and possibly the greatest playmaker ever, while also being plus defender. There's essentially no weakness to exploit. Possibly the best scorer and passer in the league while also being a very good defender who makes very few mistakes.

The crazy thing is this is not an exxageration lol. It's an accurate depiction of what we're seeing. I just think lots of us are in denial, or simply don't care, because, you know, it's a Serbian fluffy slow giant with no acrobatic dunks or plays, doing it in Denver.

[dhsilv2]

This is ridiculous. I love Joker, but Shaq was such an anomaly in this game. There was no answer to him. Pure dominance. Defensively, offensively…Joker needs a lot more years to catch up to him, for now, its not really up for debate. A ring this year and maybe another 2 in his career and then maybe we can have a discussion.

Well what is the answer for Jokic?

There is none.

All I’m saying is, its still early in Jokic’s career. Let his career blossom and then we can compare him to the absolute greats of the game if it warrants doing so. Joker with 1 ring is not enough to measure up to Shaq. In 3-4 years time, if Joker continues on his trajectory, we may look back at this post and laugh - maybe he’ll have surpassed everyone ? Either way, too early to tell.

Shaq was never 2000 Shaq again. He was still a beast but he had that one insane year and really everything after was a lessor version. That season Shaq was 27-28, about the same age as Jokic last year. Jordan won is first title and was on the Dream Team with Bird and Magic point out he might be the greatest ever as well...at the same age.

We've always started these GOAT talks with players just before they turn 30 and Jokic's resume is up there with all the names people are comparing him to at that same age. He's about to have his 3rd MVP in 4 years and his 5th top 5 MVP finish in 6 years. It's not too early. If anything it's sad we're just now getting people on board.

[dhsilv2]

People care way too much about offense. It is clear that defenses are not as good as years prior. Today we have so many players putting up crazy numbers.

Jokic is a good defender but he won't make any all defense teams. That needs to be considered

Can you show me a single person who isn't considering defense here? People talking about Jokic as the best since MJ are saying it's because he's by far the best offensive player since. And please...it's not about per game stats. Nobody cares how many points and assists. It's about how he controls and dominates the offensive end of the court and the results his team gets vs other teams.

[dantas]

It's not absurd to consider Jokic the best after Jordan in offensive terms. I think Lebron is better, but Jokic is more decisive, he didn't have to team up with other stars to win.

But defense matters. In defensive terms, Jokic is far below Lebron, Shaq, Duncan etc

Not the best player, but the best offensive player is a possible opinion. That's the summary of the majority opinion and I agree

[dhsilv2]

People are overrating Jokic a bit here. Prime Shaq > current Jokic but Jokic having a better career than Shaq is in the realm of possibility. Jokic is more valuable than prime Shaq offensively but when you add defense into the equation, I gotta give prime Shaq the edge. Jokic does a good job not fouling and using his size but Shaq during his title run with the Lakers was the better defender even if he was never Mutombo on the defensive end.

Giannis, Curry, Lebron, Jokic, Doncic, regular season Harden at least are some of the players that benefit a lot from the gradual but persistent change in NBA rules over the past 4-5 decades. The rule change and coaches warming up to the importance of the 3 have added up. It has clearly helped offenses as a whole but the league rule changes and how the game has evolved has helped some players a lot and hurt other players.

How would a specific players value change without the 3 point shot in existence or with a lot less players being able to hit it? (In the past for better and worse, you could at least defend 3 point players more aggressively.)
How would an NBA players game change if traveling was called like it is 1980 which seems like a happy medium in the lifespan of NBA basketball? In the early 80's announcers complained about uncalled traveling which was nothing compared to what is happening today.

This modern NBA game has made it much easier for one player to dominate offensively even if their skills (Doncic is prime example) are not really that impressive compared to some past legends.

In an NBA where 3 point shooting isn't such of an advantage and the floor isn't spaced so much, all of sudden many more old school PF's on the court to grab rebounds/defend the interior and Jokic/Lebron and especially Doncic/Harden lose noticeable value.

These modern rules are destroying the value of some old school PF's but artificially inflating the values of other players. Jokic is hardly the most egregious example but he is one player whose game on offense is pretty much perfect for this modern rules.

1. Who cares how things would change? You're judged on how dominate you are vs your peers. Not in hypothetical time warps.
2. In what world is Luka not among the most skilled players in NBA history? His combination of size, strength, and skill is all time levels of greatness.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic is the best player i've ever seen play the game, since I started watching in 2003.

People can say LeBron, but Jokic did what LeBron couldn't, lead his nobody team to promised land, and didn't need to team up with 2 all-nba players to do it.

I don't understand why some of you insist that Jokic lead his "nobody team" to promised land last playoffs when he's basically playing with someone who's just as good as the Eastern Conference Playoffs MVP for the entire postseason.


Jamal Murray in 2023 Playoffs
26.1 ppg, 7.1 apg, 5.7 rpg, 1.5 spg in 58.6 TS%

Jimmy Butler in 2023 Playoffs
26.9 ppg, 5.9 apg, 6.5 rpg, 1.8 spg in 56.5 TS%

Because one of those guys is an elite defender and the other is a poor one. Because one off guys plays off Jokic and the other doesn't. They aren't remotely close as players.

[mcmurphy]

This is ridiculous. I love Joker, but Shaq was such an anomaly in this game. There was no answer to him. Pure dominance. Defensively, offensively…Joker needs a lot more years to catch up to him, for now, its not really up for debate. A ring this year and maybe another 2 in his career and then maybe we can have a discussion.

Well what is the answer for Jokic?

Shaq was dominant but before win his 1st ring (27 years old as Jokic) had good teammates and anyway 4 swapped...

- sweeped in Finals 1995 by Houston with Penny Hardway All-Nba 1st team as teammate
- sweeped in ECF 1996 by Chicago with Penny Hardway All-Nba 1st team as teammate
- sweeped in ECF 1998 by Utah with a top20 player as Eddie Jones and a young Kobe
- sweeped in WCSF 1999 by SAS with Kobe as AllNba 3rd Team as teammate

[OdomFan]

Yep, definitively better or at least equal to Lebron

2011 with prime Wade they easily beat Dirk
2012 with still prime Wade they easily beat young Thunder
2013 is harder with a weaker Wade but then again you have Bosh and Ray Allen still, and prime Jokic gives Duncan fits so i think they win
2014 they lose because Wade isnt allstar anymore
2016 Jokic wins with prime Kyrie he would dominate Draymond
2020 they easily win too i mean Jokic + prime AD best twin towers of all time

So yea replace Lebron with Jokic on those teams they win +1 more championship

I'd be interested in your take on Jokic replacing Lebron in these matchups

2006 Pistons - Ben Wallace vs Jokc
2009 Magic . Dwight vs Jokic
2010 Celtics Kevin Garnett/Perkins vs Jokic

[ScrantonBulls]

Jokic has the greatest 4 year peak ever. His 4 year peak has been better than anybody. LeBron, MJ, etc. Peak Jokic is combined the most dominant and consistent player I've ever seen. Simpletons will keep looking at rangz, but that is obviously a stupid and lazy way to look at it.

[PedroFlu]

Jokic has the greatest 4 year peak ever. His 4 year peak has been better than anybody. LeBron, MJ, etc. Peak Jokic is combined the most dominant and consistent player I've ever seen. Simpletons will keep looking at rangz, but that is obviously a stupid and lazy way to look at it.

Thank you.

What bugs me is the fact that, still, we don't really pay enough attention to it (it includes myself). It makes me feel we're not as crazy for basketball as we like to think.. actually I don't watch games anymore. It's all about consuming the rest (narratives, maybe some highlights, stats, repercussion, debating)

[Jta444]

Yep, definitively better or at least equal to Lebron

2011 with prime Wade they easily beat Dirk
2012 with still prime Wade they easily beat young Thunder
2013 is harder with a weaker Wade but then again you have Bosh and Ray Allen still, and prime Jokic gives Duncan fits so i think they win
2014 they lose because Wade isnt allstar anymore
2016 Jokic wins with prime Kyrie he would dominate Draymond
2020 they easily win too i mean Jokic + prime AD best twin towers of all time

So yea replace Lebron with Jokic on those teams they win +1 more championship

I'd be interested in your take on Jokic replacing Lebron in these matchups

2006 Pistons - Ben Wallace vs Jokc
2009 Magic . Dwight vs Jokic
2010 Celtics Kevin Garnett/Perkins vs Jokic

Well yea Lebron lost all those matchups so it doesnt really matter. I’d say Jokic will put up more of a challenge than Lebron though vs those teams

It’s funny bec Bron fans point out that Jordan never faced the superteams he faced like it’s an accomplishment it’s as if he defeated the KD Warriors. He had a 1-8 record vs that team. The Rockets challenged that team more than Lebron did. So im sure Jordan can do better than 1-8. And they all forget the stain of Lebrons career his meltdown in 2011 during his prime after he promised 8 championships to the Heat lol. That wouldve never happened with Jordan

[ShootersShoot]

Here's the thing with Jokic v prime shaq: Jokic is basically Shaq and Kobe at the *same damn time*. When you average 30 ppg on +9 TS% in the playoffs, you're scoring at Shaw-level efficiency, but the difference is, Jokic is a good free throw shooter and possibly the greatest playmaker ever, while also being plus defender. There's essentially no weakness to exploit. Possibly the best scorer and passer in the league while also being a very good defender who makes very few mistakes.

The crazy thing is this is not an exxageration lol. It's an accurate depiction of what we're seeing. I just think lots of us are in denial, or simply don't care, because, you know, it's a Serbian fluffy slow giant with no acrobatic dunks or plays, doing it in Denver.

I think at some point in game 2 reggie miller mentioned that jokic was bird and mchale in one body. Normally I would scoff at a statement like that but I simply nodded my head in agreement lol. Jokic is quite simply that dude.

[stoo]

imo, best and most accomplished are not synonyms

[One Last Shot]

Jokic is the best player i've ever seen play the game, since I started watching in 2003.

People can say LeBron, but Jokic did what LeBron couldn't, lead his nobody team to promised land, and didn't need to team up with 2 all-nba players to do it.

I don't understand why some of you insist that Jokic lead his "nobody team" to promised land last playoffs when he's basically playing with someone who's just as good as the Eastern Conference Playoffs MVP for the entire postseason.


Jamal Murray in 2023 Playoffs
26.1 ppg, 7.1 apg, 5.7 rpg, 1.5 spg in 58.6 TS%

Jimmy Butler in 2023 Playoffs
26.9 ppg, 5.9 apg, 6.5 rpg, 1.8 spg in 56.5 TS%

Because one of those guys is an elite defender and the other is a poor one. Because one off guys plays off Jokic and the other doesn't. They aren't remotely close as players.

Jokic won 1 playoffs series in 2 years when Jamal is injured but when he's healthy, Nuggets won 6 playoffs series and an NBA title in the same timespan. Seems like Jokic needs him otherwise he will be swept in the 2nd round of playoffs without him regardless how phenomenal he is. Jamal is a Top 5 player during playoffs in 2020 and 2023 at the very least and I think it's bs that Jokic fans thought his current teammate is thrash.