Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[Raps in 4]

Murray is a 40% guy from 3 the past three seasons. MPJ?

- Murray and Porter are extremely streaky shooter
- Wade and Bosh were both better defensive players in comparison to Murray and Porter
- even though Murray and Porter are better 3 point shooters in comparison to Bosh and Wade, Bosh and Wade were much better two way players

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Kyrie is better than Murray and Love and MPJ are a similar tier of player.

[NZB2323]

I'm not handwaving away anything, i didn't respect his title much last year, and have been saying so all season. Now he's facing some adversity and so far, is being embarrassed as a leader. The best of the best separate themselves with their leadership and how they handle adversity, adversity which comes when you get up against a team that's good enough to beat you. I've seen guys like MJ/Lebron/Shaq/Duncan raise their game in such situations alot of times. Jokics first Crack is going very poorly so far.

If you think playing in an empty gym in the bubble is the same as playing in front of a crowd, agree to disagree. Especially in a game 7. I don't think he's got the body language or energy of an all time great.

First of all, it is not possible to win a title without playing good teams. Secondly, I’ve just never understood the idea that the bubble can just be ignored. Was it exactly the same as other years? No. But it was different for everyone. It’s not like the Nuggets had an unfair advantage, and you’ve not even posited any reason why the things that made the bubble different would’ve made things relatively better for the Nuggets. You’re just saying “It was different in some way, and therefore doesn’t count.” That is absolutely handwaving it away. It was the NBA playoffs and the Nuggets beat a team that had won at a 56-win pace, had a 6.66 SRS, and was the pre-playoffs title favorite and the title favorite going into that series with the Nuggets. Just totally absurd not to count it.

Meanwhile, I don’t see you at all defending the idea of downplaying Jokic for the losses to 50+ win teams in 2019, 2021, and 2022. There’s really nothing to downplay there, because his supporting cast in 2021 and 2022 was outlandishly abysmal, and his team dominated the series in 2019 when he was on the court. So then is your point *entirely* based on the first two games of this Timberwolves series? Does that not strike you as an obviously premature argument? The series isn’t over. And even if they lose, is it not just one series? You’re not really defending the idea that Jokic should be criticized for losing any other series, and basing a broad player critique on one playoff series is obviously silly.

So can you name a good team Denver beat last year? If not, what's so impressive about it?

The point about the bubble is this. Lots of players feed off crowds. Jokic isn't one of then. There were no crowds there. I've just never seen him go into a hostile environment in a big game and take down a team I respect. Simple as that. For me to consider a guy as having an all time peak, he's got to do that. Several times. He certainly has a chance in these next 2 games. If you want to give him credit for knocking of the clippers in the bubble, fine, that's one quality opponent beaten. He's 29.

I'm not basing it off one series. It's his overall body of work in the playoffs that hasn't impressed me nearly to the levels of those saying he's at all time peak. I've always been a critic of his ability to lead and dominate when needed against good teams, and of his defense which his been downright embarrassing vs. Minnesota, who is coincidentally the first quality team he's faced over these last 2 seasons. If I'm missing a team, again, please name them and give your reasoning.

I don't think the advanced stats encompass how a guy will rise or shrink in adversity. My eye test has lead me to question the annointment of accomplishments heaped upon him by this board as a result of last year. When your normal stuff isn't there. Which is what happens in bigtime playoff series, The best of the best can elevate in these scenarios. I've never seen him do that, and don't think he's the type of leader to do so. And this is just a second round series.

The Jazz were also on a 50 win pace during the bubble season, the Clippers aren’t known for having a hostile crowd, and the Nuggets just beat the Timberwolves by 27 in Minnesota.

[dygaction]

- Murray and Porter are extremely streaky shooter
- Wade and Bosh were both better defensive players in comparison to Murray and Porter
- even though Murray and Porter are better 3 point shooters in comparison to Bosh and Wade, Bosh and Wade were much better two way players

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Kyrie is better than Murray and Love and MPJ are a similar tier of player.

What??? Love was a perennial all star, two time 2nd-team all nba, rebound champion before joining LeBron; He was more like a pro version of Towns... MPJ's only honor was MIP #3.

[SweaterBae]

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Kyrie is better than Murray and Love and MPJ are a similar tier of player.

What??? Love was a perennial all star, two time 2nd-team all nba, rebound champion before joining LeBron; He was more like a pro version of Towns... MPJ's only honor was MIP #3.

Love is a fringe hall of famer. MPJ is a fringe plumber.

JK, plumbers have a ton of skill.

[Infinite Llamas]

Crickets from the Joker haters tonight

[Tor_Raps]

There are 79 people who voted yes to this thread. Mods should do everyone a favour and ban their accounts or force them to take mandatory Jokic training

[Handlez]

Jokic's horse saw this thread and relayed the message.

He mad now cause his horse ain't with the BS.

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

[AleksandarN]

And Jokic still hasn’t played his best yet. Best player in the league

Read on Twitter

[JimmyFromNz]

For these types of threads, we need to make sure users vote choices are publicly available.

[Los_29]

I thought this was going to be a thread from like 2020. The fact it is from this month is absolutely incredible.

[maverick_41]

Today is the day we worship Jokic again.
Ant is overrated, Brunson is Eric Snow and not Allen Iverson.

[Los_29]

There is really no debate as to who the best player is. There hasn’t been a debate for about 3 years now.

[ImSlower]

Such swings the daily see saw of the GB during the playoffs.

He's still the best player in the league. He absolutely deserves some criticism for some miscues these playoffs, but the stats weigh out. Now if the Wolves upset them, the narrative will divert streams and hear lots more chatter about undeserved MVPs.

He's my favorite player in the league to watch, and I hope he puts up some absurdly massive game here this post-season just to solidify his claim as an all-time talent.

[famicommander]

- Murray and Porter are extremely streaky shooter
- Wade and Bosh were both better defensive players in comparison to Murray and Porter
- even though Murray and Porter are better 3 point shooters in comparison to Bosh and Wade, Bosh and Wade were much better two way players

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Kyrie is better than Murray and Love and MPJ are a similar tier of player.

Love:
1X NBA Champion
5X NBA All Star
2X All-NBA 2nd Team
1X NBA Most Improved Player
1X NBA Rebounds Leader

Porter:
1X NBA Champion

Porter hasn't even come close to Kevin Love yet. C'mon.

[Ssj16]

Such swings the daily see saw of the GB during the playoffs.

He's still the best player in the league. He absolutely deserves some criticism for some miscues these playoffs, but the stats weigh out. Now if the Wolves upset them, the narrative will divert streams and hear lots more chatter about undeserved MVPs.

If only people were objective. But for whatever reason, they want to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to Jokic.

If Jokic had only one season of performing at a high level in the regular season and playoffs, maybe I would give the overrated talk more credence but the dude has been consistently performing in both regular season and playoffs now for years and shows he can win big with a healthy team.

He his a made man and provided he balls out, losing to Denver doesn't diminish his accolades.

[tsherkin]

He's still the best player in the league. He absolutely deserves some criticism for some miscues these playoffs, but the stats weigh out.

This right here.

[jc23]

Today is the day we worship Jokic again.
Ant is overrated, Brunson is Eric Snow and not Allen Iverson.

and for the others to repent and be given ever lasting bbiq.

[bledredwine]

Game by game overreactions are hilarious from both sides.

[hardenASG13]

And Jokic still hasn’t played his best yet. Best player in the league

Read on Twitter

Weren't you the one who started a thread titled "Jokic isn't HIM" after last game? To be honest, he started really slow again last night, and poured it on after it became a blowout.