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SelfishPlayer wrote:

MavsDirk41 wrote:

SelfishPlayer wrote:
Murray is a 40% guy from 3 the past three seasons. MPJ?

- Murray and Porter are extremely streaky shooter
- Wade and Bosh were both better defensive players in comparison to Murray and Porter
- even though Murray and Porter are better 3 point shooters in comparison to Bosh and Wade, Bosh and Wade were much better two way players

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

hardenASG13 wrote:

lessthanjake wrote:

hardenASG13 wrote:
I'm not handwaving away anything, i didn't respect his title much last year, and have been saying so all season. Now he's facing some adversity and so far, is being embarrassed as a leader. The best of the best separate themselves with their leadership and how they handle adversity, adversity which comes when you get up against a team that's good enough to beat you. I've seen guys like MJ/Lebron/Shaq/Duncan raise their game in such situations alot of times. Jokics first Crack is going very poorly so far.

If you think playing in an empty gym in the bubble is the same as playing in front of a crowd, agree to disagree. Especially in a game 7. I don't think he's got the body language or energy of an all time great.

First of all, it is not possible to win a title without playing good teams. Secondly, I’ve just never understood the idea that the bubble can just be ignored. Was it exactly the same as other years? No. But it was different for everyone. It’s not like the Nuggets had an unfair advantage, and you’ve not even posited any reason why the things that made the bubble different would’ve made things relatively better for the Nuggets. You’re just saying “It was different in some way, and therefore doesn’t count.” That is absolutely handwaving it away. It was the NBA playoffs and the Nuggets beat a team that had won at a 56-win pace, had a 6.66 SRS, and was the pre-playoffs title favorite and the title favorite going into that series with the Nuggets. Just totally absurd not to count it.

Meanwhile, I don’t see you at all defending the idea of downplaying Jokic for the losses to 50+ win teams in 2019, 2021, and 2022. There’s really nothing to downplay there, because his supporting cast in 2021 and 2022 was outlandishly abysmal, and his team dominated the series in 2019 when he was on the court. So then is your point *entirely* based on the first two games of this Timberwolves series? Does that not strike you as an obviously premature argument? The series isn’t over. And even if they lose, is it not just one series? You’re not really defending the idea that Jokic should be criticized for losing any other series, and basing a broad player critique on one playoff series is obviously silly.

So can you name a good team Denver beat last year? If not, what's so impressive about it?

The point about the bubble is this. Lots of players feed off crowds. Jokic isn't one of then. There were no crowds there. I've just never seen him go into a hostile environment in a big game and take down a team I respect. Simple as that. For me to consider a guy as having an all time peak, he's got to do that. Several times. He certainly has a chance in these next 2 games. If you want to give him credit for knocking of the clippers in the bubble, fine, that's one quality opponent beaten. He's 29.

I'm not basing it off one series. It's his overall body of work in the playoffs that hasn't impressed me nearly to the levels of those saying he's at all time peak. I've always been a critic of his ability to lead and dominate when needed against good teams, and of his defense which his been downright embarrassing vs. Minnesota, who is coincidentally the first quality team he's faced over these last 2 seasons. If I'm missing a team, again, please name them and give your reasoning.

I don't think the advanced stats encompass how a guy will rise or shrink in adversity. My eye test has lead me to question the annointment of accomplishments heaped upon him by this board as a result of last year. When your normal stuff isn't there. Which is what happens in bigtime playoff series, The best of the best can elevate in these scenarios. I've never seen him do that, and don't think he's the type of leader to do so. And this is just a second round series.

Raps in 4 wrote:

SelfishPlayer wrote:

MavsDirk41 wrote:

- Murray and Porter are extremely streaky shooter
- Wade and Bosh were both better defensive players in comparison to Murray and Porter
- even though Murray and Porter are better 3 point shooters in comparison to Bosh and Wade, Bosh and Wade were much better two way players

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Kyrie is better than Murray and Love and MPJ are a similar tier of player.

dygaction wrote:

Raps in 4 wrote:

SelfishPlayer wrote:
LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Kyrie is better than Murray and Love and MPJ are a similar tier of player.

What??? Love was a perennial all star, two time 2nd-team all nba, rebound champion before joining LeBron; He was more like a pro version of Towns... MPJ's only honor was MIP #3.

Raps in 4 wrote:

SelfishPlayer wrote:

MavsDirk41 wrote:

- Murray and Porter are extremely streaky shooter
- Wade and Bosh were both better defensive players in comparison to Murray and Porter
- even though Murray and Porter are better 3 point shooters in comparison to Bosh and Wade, Bosh and Wade were much better two way players

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Kyrie is better than Murray and Love and MPJ are a similar tier of player.

ImSlower wrote:Such swings the daily see saw of the GB during the playoffs.

He's still the best player in the league. He absolutely deserves some criticism for some miscues these playoffs, but the stats weigh out. Now if the Wolves upset them, the narrative will divert streams and hear lots more chatter about undeserved MVPs.

ImSlower wrote:He's still the best player in the league. He absolutely deserves some criticism for some miscues these playoffs, but the stats weigh out.

maverick_41 wrote:Today is the day we worship Jokic again.
Ant is overrated, Brunson is Eric Snow and not Allen Iverson.

AleksandarN wrote:And Jokic still hasn’t played his best yet. Best player in the league

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