Lets admit the obvious: SGA is a better player than Luka

[Ryoga Hibiki]

This SGA season is better than any season Luka had yes, Luka has been better for much longer, but seems like SGA is peaking higher, but only time will tell, but your premise is false and the opposite of reality.
Twice in his career Luka has been on elite defenses, the 1st time was with personnel that had no business being elite, teams don't need to hide Luka on defense, he showed he can be part of great defense and contribute to it.

I am not sure this Shai season is better than Luka's 24 season, actually.

Better EPM, BPM, team record, and looks like he's making the finals, pretty clear cut, what makes this uncertain?

are we talking more accomplished or better player?
I think the superiority of Luka's passing is still selling it to me, as they are similar as scorers.

[Mavrelous]

I am not sure this Shai season is better than Luka's 24 season, actually.

Better EPM, BPM, team record, and looks like he's making the finals, pretty clear cut, what makes this uncertain?

are we talking more accomplished or better player?
I think the superiority of Luka's passing is still selling it to me, as they are similar as scorers.

I also have Luka is a better player, but he never put up full season + PO better than SGA this year, including 24.

[sp6r=underrated]

I’d go so far to say that SGA is better than Kobe. SGA shoots a higher percentage from the field, the arc and the FT line. He’s also averaged 30+ for the last three seasons which matches Kobe’s output over his 20 year career and he’s done it while shooting 50% from the floor. Kobe’s best season was 46%. He’s about to win a title without riding Shaq’s coattails or without Phil Jackson. His MVP already matches Kobe’s career output. If he finishes his career with 2-3 MVP’s, 2-3 titles, 2-3 FMVP’s and better all around stats (especially advanced metrics) how can you put him behind Kobe?

Kobe is the only player in league history to go back to back without a fellow top 75 player of all time.

Slow down.

Kobe 09 western finals...34, 6, 6, 63TS%, 131ORtg.

Kobe 10 western finals...34, 7, 8, 64TS%, 135 ORtg. (One of the most brilliant and impressive displays of individual shot making series of all time)

Never forget.

This post reminded me of how much the NBA screwed up the NBA 75.

The NBA should have instructed voters that they can leave off players from the original top 50 list. My argument for being allowed to leave off some of the original list players isn't based on an era argument that modern players are better. Instead I feel voters shouldn't have tied themselves to the original list because voters make mistakes and the NBA is much much larger from 96-2020 than it was in even the 80s yet alone the 60s.

I'll pick the 70s Knicks guys since I'm a Knicks fan and do not want to come off as a homer. The 70s Knicks have five players on the list who were selected primarily for their play with those teams. That would be absurd even if they had a massive run like the 90s Bulls or modern Warriors. But they didn't come close to that.

But because the voters refused to consider knocking players off the list we have absurdities like the 00s Spurs going on a massive run with only one NBA 75 player. Same thing with the Kobe-Gasol era Lakers.

[morosis]

Completely agree- Sga leading as a professional and good guy vs Kobe ridiculed Jeremy Lin and Parker because they were not good enough is so toxic it should diminish his glory same with Jordan being a reputed jerk… but nothing like Kobe- sga doing it a different way.

leadership comes in many forms. i also tend to prefer people cut from the "lead by example" cloth vs "lead through fear" but its really hard to know what goes on behind the scenes on teams. it is really hard to lead people, so personally i wouldn't see it as something that diminishes their legacy as much as I give them credit for doing what it takes to win. that said, I do give extra credit to the tim duncans of the world who create an environment where people can grow and succeed while also being respected as men, just because that is what I personally prefer. shai seems like he's on that path.

and just to put words to the thing i'm tip-toeing around, i think this leadership thing is where there is a gap between luka and shai that puts them in different tiers as assets to their respective organizations. doesn't necessarily make one "better" than the other as a player, as stated in the OP, but if the question is "which of the two would you personally choose to have as the core of your team?" instead, i take sga 10/10 times and I think most front offices do, too. the level of leadership, professionalism, and elite production without drama that sga has reached this year is just that rare.

[Hair Jordan]

I’d go so far to say that SGA is better than Kobe. SGA shoots a higher percentage from the field, the arc and the FT line. He’s also averaged 30+ for the last three seasons which matches Kobe’s output over his 20 year career and he’s done it while shooting 50% from the floor. Kobe’s best season was 46%. He’s about to win a title without riding Shaq’s coattails or without Phil Jackson. His MVP already matches Kobe’s career output. If he finishes his career with 2-3 MVP’s, 2-3 titles, 2-3 FMVP’s and better all around stats (especially advanced metrics) how can you put him behind Kobe?

Kobe is the only player in league history to go back to back without a fellow top 75 player of all time.

Slow down.

Kobe 09 western finals...34, 6, 6, 63TS%, 131ORtg.

Kobe 10 western finals...34, 7, 8, 64TS%, 135 ORtg. (One of the most brilliant and impressive displays of individual shot making series of all time)

Never forget.

Those two playoff runs were certainly impressive, but Pau not being in the top-75 is a crime. He had a better career, and higher peak, than a lot of the guys who made the cut.

That entire list (for both players and coaches) is a joke that isn't based on any sort of objective analysis.

Exactly. The top 50 players from 1996 were automatically grandfathered in for the top 75 list. If they did a top 75 list without grandfathering anyone in, guys like Paul Arizin, Lenny Wilkens, Dave Bing, Jerry Lucas etc would drop off and a guy like Pau would make the cut so it’s misleading to suggest Kobe win 2 titles without a top 75 player.

[tamaraw08]

This SGA season is better than any season Luka had yes, Luka has been better for much longer, but seems like SGA is peaking higher, but only time will tell, but your premise is false and the opposite of reality.
Twice on his career Luka has been on elite defenses, the 1st time was with personnel that had no business being elite, teams don't need to hide Luka on defense, he showed he can be part of great defense and contribute to it.

Yes. SGA is having his moment but Luka is capable of a high level of play also. It's close enough that we need a bigger sample size of prime years to really evaluate. I prefer SGA for his defensive impact but Luka is more explosive offensively (elite shotmaker, better passer).

How good would Luka look on this OKC roster with insane depth and defense to fully cover his shortcoming? Luka would average 40 I bet.

Some fans including me are probably punishing SGA for having a stack team. Luka is coming from an injury and not in the best shape.
OKC has like 5-6 really good defenders who can hit open 3's PLUS 2 really good centers. Last year, Luka lead the Mavs to the finals with a relatively lesser quality roster.

[CobraCommander]

Completely agree- Sga leading as a professional and good guy vs Kobe ridiculed Jeremy Lin and Parker because they were not good enough is so toxic it should diminish his glory same with Jordan being a reputed jerk… but nothing like Kobe- sga doing it a different way.

leadership comes in many forms. i also tend to prefer people cut from the "lead by example" cloth vs "lead through fear" but its really hard to know what goes on behind the scenes on teams. it is really hard to lead people, so personally i wouldn't see it as something that diminishes their legacy as much as I give them credit for doing what it takes to win. that said, I do give extra credit to the tim duncans of the world who create an environment where people can grow and succeed while also being respected as men, just because that is what I personally prefer. shai seems like he's on that path.

and just to put words to the thing i'm tip-toeing around, i think this leadership thing is where there is a gap between luka and shai that puts them in different tiers as assets to their respective organizations. doesn't necessarily make one "better" than the other as a player, as stated in the OP, but if the question is "which of the two would you personally choose to have as the core of your team?" instead, i take sga 10/10 times and I think most front offices do, too. the level of leadership, professionalism, and elite production without drama that sga has reached this year is just that rare.

I agree with every point you made but - since basketball is a team sport- the guy that gets the most out his teammates is “better” at the team aspect of the sport. sga is better at this than Luka - no question

But Luka’s talent individually is so damn high even with me thinking sga is a better leader, the delta between these two is still razor thin… I say SGA is better today

[CobraCommander]

Yes. SGA is having his moment but Luka is capable of a high level of play also. It's close enough that we need a bigger sample size of prime years to really evaluate. I prefer SGA for his defensive impact but Luka is more explosive offensively (elite shotmaker, better passer).

How good would Luka look on this OKC roster with insane depth and defense to fully cover his shortcoming? Luka would average 40 I bet.

Some fans including me are probably punishing SGA for having a stack team. Luka is coming from an injury and not in the best shape.
OKC has like 5-6 really good defenders who can hit open 3's PLUS 2 really good centers. Last year, Luka lead the Mavs to the finals with a relatively lesser quality roster.

The Mavs roster is better than OKCs -

I say that because when OKC and Mavs met last year - sga outplayed Luka (Luka was hurt last playoffs) by a wide margins and The Mavs others out played the OKC others -

With that said- that’s undeniable truth that if you take the Mavs roster minus Luka and okc minus sga - or if you say they cancel each other out.:: the Mavs win…

So I think it’s clear that the Mavs roster isn’t bad at all

[Handlez]

Kobe is the only player in league history to go back to back without a fellow top 75 player of all time.

Slow down.

Kobe 09 western finals...34, 6, 6, 63TS%, 131ORtg.

Kobe 10 western finals...34, 7, 8, 64TS%, 135 ORtg. (One of the most brilliant and impressive displays of individual shot making series of all time)

Never forget.

Those two playoff runs were certainly impressive, but Pau not being in the top-75 is a crime. He had a better career, and higher peak, than a lot of the guys who made the cut.

That entire list (for both players and coaches) is a joke that isn't based on any sort of objective analysis.

Exactly. The top 50 players from 1996 were automatically grandfathered in for the top 75 list. If they did a top 75 list without grandfathering anyone in, guys like Paul Arizin, Lenny Wilkens, Dave Bing, Jerry Lucas etc would drop off and a guy like Pau would make the cut so it’s misleading to suggest Kobe win 2 titles without a top 75 player.

Pau was like 0-12 in the playoffs before Kobe, if I'm not mistaken.

Chris Bosh level player, although Bosh did make 11 all-star teams and Pau 6. In the east, though.

But Kobe didn't have Wade + Bosh lol.

Pau was a great player, but he's certainly not otherworldly without a true #1.

[NyKnicks1714]

I’d go so far to say that SGA is better than Kobe. SGA shoots a higher percentage from the field, the arc and the FT line. He’s also averaged 30+ for the last three seasons which matches Kobe’s output over his 20 year career and he’s done it while shooting 50% from the floor. Kobe’s best season was 46%. He’s about to win a title without riding Shaq’s coattails or without Phil Jackson. His MVP already matches Kobe’s career output. If he finishes his career with 2-3 MVP’s, 2-3 titles, 2-3 FMVP’s and better all around stats (especially advanced metrics) how can you put him behind Kobe?

Kobe is the only player in league history to go back to back without a fellow top 75 player of all time.

Slow down.

Kobe 09 western finals...34, 6, 6, 63TS%, 131ORtg.

Kobe 10 western finals...34, 7, 8, 64TS%, 135 ORtg. (One of the most brilliant and impressive displays of individual shot making series of all time)

Never forget.

This post reminded me of how much the NBA screwed up the NBA 75.

The NBA should have instructed voters that they can leave off players from the original top 50 list. My argument for being allowed to leave off some of the original list players isn't based on an era argument that modern players are better. Instead I feel voters shouldn't have tied themselves to the original list because voters make mistakes and the NBA is much much larger from 96-2020 than it was in even the 80s yet alone the 60s.

I'll pick the 70s Knicks guys since I'm a Knicks fan and do not want to come off as a homer. The 70s Knicks have five players on the list who were selected primarily for their play with those teams. That would be absurd even if they had a massive run like the 90s Bulls or modern Warriors. But they didn't come close to that.

But because the voters refused to consider knocking players off the list we have absurdities like the 00s Spurs going on a massive run with only one NBA 75 player. Same thing with the Kobe-Gasol era Lakers.

Off topic now but no, removing players from the Top 50 for NBA 75 would have been a terrible idea, even if they're indeed clearly not one of the top 75 players ever. There's no need to deal that blow to those players and/or their families. It completely outweighs the feeling of being snubbed that say Dwight or Pau have, especially since they're surely living amazing lives right now. Horrible PR overall, too.

[LakersSoul]

I've been reading a lot of comments on how Luka on the Thunder in place of SGA would be a better team and I completely disagree. No team can hide Luka's inability to defend. Even Goatruso can't save him. SGA just gives you more on both ends without dominating the ball.

Maybe this is why OKC didnt want to trade SGA for Luka wen Mavs offered.

[morosis]

I agree with every point you made but - since basketball is a team sport- the guy that gets the most out his teammates is “better” at the team aspect of the sport. sga is better at this than Luka - no question

But Luka’s talent individually is so damn high even with me thinking sga is a better leader, the delta between these two is still razor thin… I say SGA is better today

yeah. but just to say it, i don't know what the OP intended with the question really. when most people say things like "better player" i feel like they are talking basketball skills. if that is the intent then i take that as more of a "what would their video game rating be" kind of thing vs the all-encompassing skills/intangibles/professionalism kind of discussion you and I are having. and i agree i think its still very close even if Luka defies logic so often with his skillset and feel for the game.

to your point about getting the most out of teammates - def agree with you there. i think when we look back at sga's career it could feel very much like the 2000s spurs where we think all the teams sga played on were stacked, simply because he helped build a culture there and lifted everyone up. i feel like all too often we think of players on a team like parts in a machine, where the environment they are in is not a factor. but these are all human beings, and i think there's a real difference in performance when a role player goes to a place like okc where he has a leader like sga to elevate his game for.

[tamaraw08]

How good would Luka look on this OKC roster with insane depth and defense to fully cover his shortcoming? Luka would average 40 I bet.

Some fans including me are probably punishing SGA for having a stack team. Luka is coming from an injury and not in the best shape.
OKC has like 5-6 really good defenders who can hit open 3's PLUS 2 really good centers. Last year, Luka lead the Mavs to the finals with a relatively lesser quality roster.

The Mavs roster is better than OKCs -

I say that because when OKC and Mavs met last year - sga outplayed Luka (Luka was hurt last playoffs) by a wide margins and The Mavs others out played the OKC others -

With that said- that’s undeniable truth that if you take the Mavs roster minus Luka and okc minus sga - or if you say they cancel each other out.:: the Mavs win…

So I think it’s clear that the Mavs roster isn’t bad at all

OKC pretty much replaced Giddey who was such a great offensive liability (he was so bad he played 12.5 mins vs Dallas) with a veteran who can play defense and hit 3's in Caruso.
OKC also didn't have I-Hart last year.
OKC after 1 year significantly improved ranking from 4th to first in DRTG, I heard one of the best in history at 107.5/100 from 112/100
they also improved their ORTG.
Collectively the really improved like JDub, elected to ALL NBA 3rd team, all defensive 2nd team,
also Dort (all defensive 1st team), Wallace, Wiggins, Joe have really matured and improved both on offense and defense from last year imo.

[Archx]

I've been reading a lot of comments on how Luka on the Thunder in place of SGA would be a better team and I completely disagree. No team can hide Luka's inability to defend. Even Goatruso can't save him. SGA just gives you more on both ends without dominating the ball.

Maybe this is why OKC didnt want to trade SGA for Luka wen Mavs offered.

Mavs never offered Luka to OKC and both SGA and Luka had similar individual and team defensive stats in last playoffs when Luka was in shape and wasn't dealing with all the drama. This notion that Mavs needed to hide Luka on defense is insanely incorrect and there are some people on this forum who write 2 posts per page to remind everyone of this fake narrative.

[Special_Puppy]

How good would Luka look on this OKC roster with insane depth and defense to fully cover his shortcoming? Luka would average 40 I bet.

Some fans including me are probably punishing SGA for having a stack team. Luka is coming from an injury and not in the best shape.
OKC has like 5-6 really good defenders who can hit open 3's PLUS 2 really good centers. Last year, Luka lead the Mavs to the finals with a relatively lesser quality roster.

The Mavs roster is better than OKCs -

I say that because when OKC and Mavs met last year - sga outplayed Luka (Luka was hurt last playoffs) by a wide margins and The Mavs others out played the OKC others -

With that said- that’s undeniable truth that if you take the Mavs roster minus Luka and okc minus sga - or if you say they cancel each other out.:: the Mavs win…

So I think it’s clear that the Mavs roster isn’t bad at all

You think the Mavs roster last year is better than OKC's roster this year?

[bbms]

How good would Luka look on this OKC roster with insane depth and defense to fully cover his shortcoming? Luka would average 40 I bet.

yicks.

that's the point, my friend.

okc is so good, this defense is so good, because there's no weak link on defense.

you don't get anything at all.

[tamaraw08]

I've been reading a lot of comments on how Luka on the Thunder in place of SGA would be a better team and I completely disagree. No team can hide Luka's inability to defend. Even Goatruso can't save him. SGA just gives you more on both ends without dominating the ball.

Maybe this is why OKC didnt want to trade SGA for Luka wen Mavs offered.

Mavs never offered Luka to OKC and both SGA and Luka had similar individual and team defensive stats in last playoffs when Luka was in shape and wasn't dealing with all the drama. This notion that Mavs needed to hide Luka on defense is insanely incorrect and there are some people on this forum who write 2 posts per page to remind everyone of this fake narrative.

Yeah, this narrative that Luka is a very bad defender esp in the playoffs is really crazy indeed.
If this is the case then playoff teams like the Suns, Clippers with Lue, OKC, TWolves with Finch should have targeted and fully exploited this weakness RELENTLESSLY!! and yet Dallas eliminated these teams before.

[CobraCommander]

Some fans including me are probably punishing SGA for having a stack team. Luka is coming from an injury and not in the best shape.
OKC has like 5-6 really good defenders who can hit open 3's PLUS 2 really good centers. Last year, Luka lead the Mavs to the finals with a relatively lesser quality roster.

The Mavs roster is better than OKCs -

I say that because when OKC and Mavs met last year - sga outplayed Luka (Luka was hurt last playoffs) by a wide margins and The Mavs others out played the OKC others -

With that said- that’s undeniable truth that if you take the Mavs roster minus Luka and okc minus sga - or if you say they cancel each other out.:: the Mavs win…

So I think it’s clear that the Mavs roster isn’t bad at all

OKC pretty much replaced Giddey who was such a great offensive liability (he was so bad he played 12.5 mins vs Dallas) with a veteran who can play defense and hit 3's in Caruso.
OKC also didn't have I-Hart last year.
OKC after 1 year significantly improved ranking from 4th to first in DRTG, I heard one of the best in history at 107.5/100 from 112/100
they also improved their ORTG.
Collectively the really improved like JDub, elected to ALL NBA 3rd team, all defensive 2nd team,
also Dort (all defensive 1st team), Wallace, Wiggins, Joe have really matured and improved both on offense and defense from last year imo.

I’m just saying The Mavs have a quality roster

[CobraCommander]

Maybe this is why OKC didnt want to trade SGA for Luka wen Mavs offered.

Mavs never offered Luka to OKC and both SGA and Luka had similar individual and team defensive stats in last playoffs when Luka was in shape and wasn't dealing with all the drama. This notion that Mavs needed to hide Luka on defense is insanely incorrect and there are some people on this forum who write 2 posts per page to remind everyone of this fake narrative.

Yeah, this narrative that Luka is a very bad defender esp in the playoffs is really crazy indeed.
If this is the case then playoff teams like the Suns, Clippers with Lue, OKC, TWolves with Finch should have targeted and fully exploited this weakness RELENTLESSLY!! and yet Dallas eliminated these teams before.

The fact that there is video evidence that Luka is bad at defense is refuted by what ?

Stats that take team performance into consideration?

We all have seen Luka play well in spurts but you guys sound like you actually think Luka’s defense is anywhere need respectable on a regular basis…. It’s no where near SGAs because one can actually stay in front of his man

[CobraCommander]

How good would Luka look on this OKC roster with insane depth and defense to fully cover his shortcoming? Luka would average 40 I bet.

yicks.

that's the point, my friend.

okc is so good, this defense is so good, because there's no weak link on defense.

you don't get anything at all.

People don’t get that SGA is part of the reason why they are so good ok defense- his professionalism and defense made this possible