How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[CometGM]

I know how good Jokic is. You can go on and on about him but he still didn't have a better season than Towns and is not better than him either. The people who are disagreeing with me about this fact (NOT THAT HE'S NOT GOOD, BUT THAT HE'S NOT BETTER THAN TOWNS) are just too excited about him to see it.

See what actual GMs with money, career, and legacies are saying. Let's see what they say after Jokic putting up the season he did. I'm pretty sure they'll all pick Towns over him.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

[Duke4life831]

We'll see soon enough when the GMs have their annual survey. Will come back to this post.

GM's aren't as brilliant as we all think. These same GM's drafted 40 other players in front of Jokic in the first place. Don't overvalue their opinions.

I don't.

That said, I don't think any GM would say Jokic had a better season than Towns, or Jokic would be picked over him to start a franchise. I think anybody that really knows basketball and doesn't let fandom get in the way would think that too. It's not debatable at this point.

This is the stuff I dont get. I totally get why someone would take KAT over Jokic. But saying stuff like its a crazy notion to even think about taking Jokic or that its not even debatable at this point just shows that youre too biased towards KAT or you havent watched much of Jokic.

[Wolfgang630]

GM's aren't as brilliant as we all think. These same GM's drafted 40 other players in front of Jokic in the first place. Don't overvalue their opinions.

I don't.

That said, I don't think any GM would say Jokic had a better season than Towns, or Jokic would be picked over him to start a franchise. I think anybody that really knows basketball and doesn't let fandom get in the way would think that too. It's not debatable at this point.

This is the stuff I dont get. I totally get why someone would take KAT over Jokic. But saying stuff like its a crazy notion to even think about taking Jokic or that its not even debatable at this point just shows that youre too biased towards KAT or you havent watched much of Jokic.

Yep. It's debatable

[Duke4life831]

I know how good Jokic is. You can go on and on about him but he still didn't have a better season than Towns and is not better than him either. The people who are disagreeing with me about this fact (NOT THAT HE'S NOT GOOD, BUT THAT HE'S NOT BETTER THAN TOWNS) are just too excited about him to see it.

See what actual GMs with money, career, and legacies are saying. Let's see what they say after Jokic putting up the season he did. I'm pretty sure they'll all pick Towns over him.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

This is the debatable part. There are many stats that say Jokic actually had the better season. To sit here and say KAT had the better season and its a fact and not debatable is just not true, while you have many statistics that say otherwise. You may not be a fan of advanced stats and analytics but many GMs and front offices are. There is a reason they exist and have become so popular. All I see is people saying they would choose Jokic and they say this is why and point to A, B and C. And there seem to be a few on here that dont want to hear a point of view that doesnt fit theirs.

[Screwston]

I know how good Jokic is. You can go on and on about him but he still didn't have a better season than Towns and is not better than him either. The people who are disagreeing with me about this fact (NOT THAT HE'S NOT GOOD, BUT THAT HE'S NOT BETTER THAN TOWNS) are just too excited about him to see it.

See what actual GMs with money, career, and legacies are saying. Let's see what they say after Jokic putting up the season he did. I'm pretty sure they'll all pick Towns over him.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

This is the debatable part. There are many stats that say Jokic actually had the better season. To sit here and say KAT had the better season and its a fact and not debatable is just not true, while you have many statistics that say otherwise. You may not be a fan of advanced stats and analytics but many GMs and front offices are. There is a reason they exist and have become so popular. All I see is people saying they would choose Jokic and they say this is why and point to A, B and C. And there seem to be a few on here that dont want to hear a point of view that doesnt fit theirs.

25>16

debate ends

[Duke4life831]

I know how good Jokic is. You can go on and on about him but he still didn't have a better season than Towns and is not better than him either. The people who are disagreeing with me about this fact (NOT THAT HE'S NOT GOOD, BUT THAT HE'S NOT BETTER THAN TOWNS) are just too excited about him to see it.

See what actual GMs with money, career, and legacies are saying. Let's see what they say after Jokic putting up the season he did. I'm pretty sure they'll all pick Towns over him.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

This is the debatable part. There are many stats that say Jokic actually had the better season. To sit here and say KAT had the better season and its a fact and not debatable is just not true, while you have many statistics that say otherwise. You may not be a fan of advanced stats and analytics but many GMs and front offices are. There is a reason they exist and have become so popular. All I see is people saying they would choose Jokic and they say this is why and point to A, B and C. And there seem to be a few on here that dont want to hear a point of view that doesnt fit theirs.

25>16

debate ends

Haha Im hoping this is sarcasm. If not then this would be the same as me saying DeRozan had a better season than Lebron, KD, Curry and others because you know 27>26 or 25. IT vs Wall isnt even a debate because you know 29>23. Rudy Gay over Gobert any day of the week because you know 19>14. I could keep going haha. But im giving the benefit of the doubt that post was sarcasm.

[Screwston]

Haha Im hoping this is sarcasm. If not then this would be the same as me saying DeRozan had a better season than Lebron, KD, Curry and others because you know 27>26 or 25. IT vs Wall isnt even a debate because you know 29>23. Rudy Gay over Gobert any day of the week because you know 19>14. I could keep going haha. But im giving the benefit of the doubt that post was sarcasm.

Lol come on dude you can't be serious, this is a 9 points difference. Don't compare PG's (especially if one is a scoring PG n thats all he does as oppose to Wall who dishes 10 dimes a game), unless they're average the same amount of assists which in Wall vs IT debate is not even close, so that ends there.

DeRozan is not on KD, Lebron, Curry level, so i could careless if he averages couple of more points.

If Jokic n Towns are on the same level 25>16

[CometGM]

GM's aren't as brilliant as we all think. These same GM's drafted 40 other players in front of Jokic in the first place. Don't overvalue their opinions.

I don't.

That said, I don't think any GM would say Jokic had a better season than Towns, or Jokic would be picked over him to start a franchise. I think anybody that really knows basketball and doesn't let fandom get in the way would think that too. It's not debatable at this point.

This is the stuff I dont get. I totally get why someone would take KAT over Jokic. But saying stuff like its a crazy notion to even think about taking Jokic or that its not even debatable at this point just shows that youre too biased towards KAT or you havent watched much of Jokic.

It's one thing some of you guys saying, "way better advanced stats", "impact", etc.., so let's really break it down. Let's see who really had the better season. Let's go stat by stat...

I'm not gonna waste my time even mentioning the traditional stats. Towns blows Jokic out of the water. No comparison. Almost enough to not make you need to look at advanced stats, but you know what, let's look at them:

Let's look at the player comparisons from basketball-reference.com



http://bkref.com/tiny/vILyb (basketball-reference.com player comparison)

In the Advanced Stats category:
I see Jokic ahead in PER, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
I see Towns ahead in 3PAr, FTr, DRB%, BLK%, lower TOV%, USG%, OWS, DWS, WS

Now tell me where you see that Jokic is blowing Towns out of the water in most advanced stats?

THIS, along with Towns traditional stats which are way ahead of Jokic, shows clearly that Towns had the better season.

Go ahead and poll any actual GMs, basketball historians or statisticians and see who had the better season.

Jokic is definitely an impactful player and fun to watch, but he did not have a better season than Towns.
The season is a collection of the whole, NOT what could've been done per/36 or per/48.

[Alatan]

Spoiler:

I know how good Jokic is. You can go on and on about him but he still didn't have a better season than Towns and is not better than him either. The people who are disagreeing with me about this fact (NOT THAT HE'S NOT GOOD, BUT THAT HE'S NOT BETTER THAN TOWNS) are just too excited about him to see it.

See what actual GMs with money, career, and legacies are saying. Let's see what they say after Jokic putting up the season he did. I'm pretty sure they'll all pick Towns over him.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

This is the debatable part. There are many stats that say Jokic actually had the better season. To sit here and say KAT had the better season and its a fact and not debatable is just not true, while you have many statistics that say otherwise. You may not be a fan of advanced stats and analytics but many GMs and front offices are. There is a reason they exist and have become so popular. All I see is people saying they would choose Jokic and they say this is why and point to A, B and C. And there seem to be a few on here that dont want to hear a point of view that doesnt fit theirs.

25>16

debate ends

40>31
26.4>26

[Duke4life831]

Haha Im hoping this is sarcasm. If not then this would be the same as me saying DeRozan had a better season than Lebron, KD, Curry and others because you know 27>26 or 25. IT vs Wall isnt even a debate because you know 29>23. Rudy Gay over Gobert any day of the week because you know 19>14. I could keep going haha. But im giving the benefit of the doubt that post was sarcasm.

Lol come on dude you can't be serious, this is a 9 points difference. Don't compare PG's unless they're average the same amount of assists which in Wall vs IT debate is not even close, so that ends there.

DeRozan is not on KD, Lebron, Curry level, so i could careless if he averages couple of more points.

If Jokic n Towns are on the same level 25>16

Its a 9 point difference while KAT takes 7 more shots to get that 9 point difference, thats not good. Jokic has the superior TS% (64>61) and facilitating isnt even close with Jokic having a 28 AST% compared to Towns 13 AST%. Per 36 (Jokic wasnt the everyday starter till late December) Jokic averaged 21 points, 12.7 rbs and 6 asts compared to Towns 24 points, 12 rbs and 2 asts.

Are we really going back to whoever has the highest PPG means theyre the better player? We're just going to throw out all advanced stats? What about on/off where KAT had a +1.5 On/Off compared to Jokic who had an On/Off of +11.9. And look at the backups that Jokic had with Nurkic then Plumlee. You would think having such good backups his On/Off wouldnt look as good because of the quality of backup behind him. It just seems like youre saying KAT had a better season and citing just PPG while people who are saying Jokic had the better season are citing things like PER, RPM, BPM, WS/48, TS%, On/Off, offensive and defensive rating and more.

Im not saying its Jokic and its not debatable. I think it is debatable between the two of them. Hell I think you could have an actual debate between Jokic, KAT, Embiid and KP. But when you say its not debatable because 25 points per game is better than 16 points per game and that ends all debate, to me is just dumb. Especially when the other side of the debate can point to all these other things where Jokic > KAT.

[Screwston]

Its a 9 point difference while KAT takes 7 more shots to get that 9 point difference, thats not good. Jokic has the superior TS% (64>61) and facilitating isnt even close with Jokic having a 28 AST% compared to Towns 13 AST%. Per 36 (Jokic wasnt the everyday starter till late December) Jokic averaged 21 points, 12.7 rbs and 6 asts compared to Towns 24 points, 12 rbs and 2 asts.

Are we really going back to whoever has the highest PPG means theyre the better player? We're just going to throw out all advanced stats? What about on/off where KAT had a +1.5 On/Off compared to Jokic who had an On/Off of +11.9. And look at the backups that Jokic had with Nurkic then Plumlee. You would think having such good backups his On/Off wouldnt look as good because of the quality of backup behind him. It just seems like youre saying KAT had a better season and citing just PPG while people who are saying Jokic had the better season are citing things like PER, RPM, BPM, WS/48, TS%, On/Off, offensive and defensive rating and more.

Im not saying its Jokic and its not debatable. I think it is debatable between the two of them. Hell I think you could have an actual debate between Jokic, KAT, Embiid and KP. But when you say its not debatable because 25 points per game is better than 16 points per game and that ends all debate, to me is just dumb. Especially when the other side of the debate can point to all these other things where Jokic > KAT.

Lets see if Jokic will ever be able to average 25 in this league first..

[GreatWhiteStiff]

I know how good Jokic is. You can go on and on about him but he still didn't have a better season than Towns and is not better than him either. The people who are disagreeing with me about this fact (NOT THAT HE'S NOT GOOD, BUT THAT HE'S NOT BETTER THAN TOWNS) are just too excited about him to see it.

See what actual GMs with money, career, and legacies are saying. Let's see what they say after Jokic putting up the season he did. I'm pretty sure they'll all pick Towns over him.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

There will like never be a situation where a GM is forced to choose between Jokic and Towns, and I'm not sure they' go around venturing opinions on who's better between the two. Finding out what GMs think would be a difficult task. I guess you yourself can estimate what actual GMs might think though...

[Duke4life831]

I don't.

That said, I don't think any GM would say Jokic had a better season than Towns, or Jokic would be picked over him to start a franchise. I think anybody that really knows basketball and doesn't let fandom get in the way would think that too. It's not debatable at this point.

This is the stuff I dont get. I totally get why someone would take KAT over Jokic. But saying stuff like its a crazy notion to even think about taking Jokic or that its not even debatable at this point just shows that youre too biased towards KAT or you havent watched much of Jokic.

It's one thing some of you guys saying, "way better advanced stats", "impact", etc.., so let's really break it down. Let's see who really had the better season. Let's go stat by stat...

I'm not gonna waste my time even mentioning the traditional stats. Towns blows Jokic out of the water. No comparison. Almost enough to not make you need to look at advanced stats, but you know what, let's look at them:

Let's look at the player comparisons from basketball-reference.com



http://bkref.com/tiny/vILyb (basketball-reference.com player comparison)

In the Advanced Stats category:
I see Jokic ahead in PER, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
I see Towns ahead in 3PAr, FTr, DRB%, BLK%, lower TOV%, USG%, OWS, DWS, WS

Now tell me where you see that Jokic is blowing Towns out of the water in most advanced stats?

THIS, along with Towns traditional stats which are way ahead of Jokic, shows clearly that Towns had the better season.

Go ahead and poll any actual GMs, basketball historians or statisticians and see who had the better season.

Jokic is definitely an impactful player and fun to watch, but he did not have a better season than Towns.
The season is a collection of the whole, NOT what could've been done per/36 or per/48.

This is a good post. This is a lot better than just saying 25>16 end of debate. And my return to this would be Id take WS/48 over OWS, DWS and WS. Because a better WS/48 means if they played the same amount of minutes Jokic would have a better WS and be better in at least one of OWS or DWS if not both. USG% doesnt really reflect a good or bad thing, you can be a great player with a low USG and you can be a horrible player with a high USG. 3PAr only shows how much the 3pt shot is involved in someones game, you can be a great player without taking a bunch of 3s. FTr is a good one, getting to the line is a big time skill especially when you can hit them at the rate KAT can. The DRB% is almost identical and so is the TRB% so I basically consider them equal when it comes to rebounding. Similar to the BLK% as well, both arent good shot blockers.

[Alatan]

Its a 9 point difference while KAT takes 7 more shots to get that 9 point difference, thats not good. Jokic has the superior TS% (64>61) and facilitating isnt even close with Jokic having a 28 AST% compared to Towns 13 AST%. Per 36 (Jokic wasnt the everyday starter till late December) Jokic averaged 21 points, 12.7 rbs and 6 asts compared to Towns 24 points, 12 rbs and 2 asts.

Are we really going back to whoever has the highest PPG means theyre the better player? We're just going to throw out all advanced stats? What about on/off where KAT had a +1.5 On/Off compared to Jokic who had an On/Off of +11.9. And look at the backups that Jokic had with Nurkic then Plumlee. You would think having such good backups his On/Off wouldnt look as good because of the quality of backup behind him. It just seems like youre saying KAT had a better season and citing just PPG while people who are saying Jokic had the better season are citing things like PER, RPM, BPM, WS/48, TS%, On/Off, offensive and defensive rating and more.

Im not saying its Jokic and its not debatable. I think it is debatable between the two of them. Hell I think you could have an actual debate between Jokic, KAT, Embiid and KP. But when you say its not debatable because 25 points per game is better than 16 points per game and that ends all debate, to me is just dumb. Especially when the other side of the debate can point to all these other things where Jokic > KAT.

Lets see if Jokic will ever be able to average 25 in this league first..

I'm not saying it will happen but it would be so funny if he averaged a triple double.

[Duke4life831]

Its a 9 point difference while KAT takes 7 more shots to get that 9 point difference, thats not good. Jokic has the superior TS% (64>61) and facilitating isnt even close with Jokic having a 28 AST% compared to Towns 13 AST%. Per 36 (Jokic wasnt the everyday starter till late December) Jokic averaged 21 points, 12.7 rbs and 6 asts compared to Towns 24 points, 12 rbs and 2 asts.

Are we really going back to whoever has the highest PPG means theyre the better player? We're just going to throw out all advanced stats? What about on/off where KAT had a +1.5 On/Off compared to Jokic who had an On/Off of +11.9. And look at the backups that Jokic had with Nurkic then Plumlee. You would think having such good backups his On/Off wouldnt look as good because of the quality of backup behind him. It just seems like youre saying KAT had a better season and citing just PPG while people who are saying Jokic had the better season are citing things like PER, RPM, BPM, WS/48, TS%, On/Off, offensive and defensive rating and more.

Im not saying its Jokic and its not debatable. I think it is debatable between the two of them. Hell I think you could have an actual debate between Jokic, KAT, Embiid and KP. But when you say its not debatable because 25 points per game is better than 16 points per game and that ends all debate, to me is just dumb. Especially when the other side of the debate can point to all these other things where Jokic > KAT.

Lets see if Jokic will ever be able to average 25 in this league first..

What if he doesnt average 25, but averages 19-20 but gets his 12 boards and 6-7 assists while orchestrating a top 3 if not the best offense in the entire league? Are we still going to say KAT is the better player with no debate just because he scores more?

Why did Denver all of a sudden become the best offense in the league (even over GS) when Jokic came into the starting lineup and why does Jokic have a ridiculous On/Off of basically 12, even though he had backups of Nurkic or Plumlee all year?

[Nuggets_Talk]

I know how good Jokic is. You can go on and on about him but he still didn't have a better season than Towns and is not better than him either. The people who are disagreeing with me about this fact (NOT THAT HE'S NOT GOOD, BUT THAT HE'S NOT BETTER THAN TOWNS) are just too excited about him to see it.

See what actual GMs with money, career, and legacies are saying. Let's see what they say after Jokic putting up the season he did. I'm pretty sure they'll all pick Towns over him.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

This is the debatable part. There are many stats that say Jokic actually had the better season. To sit here and say KAT had the better season and its a fact and not debatable is just not true, while you have many statistics that say otherwise. You may not be a fan of advanced stats and analytics but many GMs and front offices are. There is a reason they exist and have become so popular. All I see is people saying they would choose Jokic and they say this is why and point to A, B and C. And there seem to be a few on here that dont want to hear a point of view that doesnt fit theirs.

25>16

debate ends

I love the idea that the depth of your basketball analysis doesnt go beyond ppg.

and I would bet there are TONS of nba "fans" who think this way.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Its a 9 point difference while KAT takes 7 more shots to get that 9 point difference, thats not good. Jokic has the superior TS% (64>61) and facilitating isnt even close with Jokic having a 28 AST% compared to Towns 13 AST%. Per 36 (Jokic wasnt the everyday starter till late December) Jokic averaged 21 points, 12.7 rbs and 6 asts compared to Towns 24 points, 12 rbs and 2 asts.

Are we really going back to whoever has the highest PPG means theyre the better player? We're just going to throw out all advanced stats? What about on/off where KAT had a +1.5 On/Off compared to Jokic who had an On/Off of +11.9. And look at the backups that Jokic had with Nurkic then Plumlee. You would think having such good backups his On/Off wouldnt look as good because of the quality of backup behind him. It just seems like youre saying KAT had a better season and citing just PPG while people who are saying Jokic had the better season are citing things like PER, RPM, BPM, WS/48, TS%, On/Off, offensive and defensive rating and more.

Im not saying its Jokic and its not debatable. I think it is debatable between the two of them. Hell I think you could have an actual debate between Jokic, KAT, Embiid and KP. But when you say its not debatable because 25 points per game is better than 16 points per game and that ends all debate, to me is just dumb. Especially when the other side of the debate can point to all these other things where Jokic > KAT.

Lets see if Jokic will ever be able to average 25 in this league first..

he wont.

[Big Mac Biyombo]

I know how good Jokic is. You can go on and on about him but he still didn't have a better season than Towns and is not better than him either. The people who are disagreeing with me about this fact (NOT THAT HE'S NOT GOOD, BUT THAT HE'S NOT BETTER THAN TOWNS) are just too excited about him to see it.

See what actual GMs with money, career, and legacies are saying. Let's see what they say after Jokic putting up the season he did. I'm pretty sure they'll all pick Towns over him.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

This is the debatable part. There are many stats that say Jokic actually had the better season. To sit here and say KAT had the better season and its a fact and not debatable is just not true, while you have many statistics that say otherwise. You may not be a fan of advanced stats and analytics but many GMs and front offices are. There is a reason they exist and have become so popular. All I see is people saying they would choose Jokic and they say this is why and point to A, B and C. And there seem to be a few on here that dont want to hear a point of view that doesnt fit theirs.

25>16

debate ends

What year is this? The guys we're debating about weren't even born when people last tried making arguments like 25>16.

[Screwston]

I love the idea that the depth of your basketball analysis doesnt go beyond ppg.

and I would bet there are TONS of nba "fans" who think this way.

Don't need it for this particular matter. I don't need to explain to you why James Harden is better than DeRozan n Klay Thompson, thats just waste of time.

just like Cousins n Kat are better than Jokic right now, what will happen in the future we shall see

[Nuggets_Talk]

I love the idea that the depth of your basketball analysis doesnt go beyond ppg.

and I would bet there are TONS of nba "fans" who think this way.

Don't need it for this particular matter. I don't need to explain to you why James Harden is better than DeRozan n Klay Thompson, thats just waste of time.

yeah because harden is better than derozen, therefore ppg is sufficient for all debates.

makes sense. logic and reasoning 101.