RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Iwasawitness]

Because if he could score at will and is actually in the GOAT debate, it shouldn't be that much of a slaughter.

But we're talking about a guy who not only (choked) lost his team a championship (2011), but also participated in two of the worst finals slaughters of all time, with a finals record of 4-6. 30% of those fall into that first sentence. That definitely matters.

I mean, in one series he averaged 28 PPG against a terrific defensive team and in the other, he dropped 51 before messing his hand up. In both cases, he went up against significantly better teams. Pinning this on him makes no sense.

Yes, I highly doubt Jordan could have won those series, and whether he would have done significantly better we will never. He might have been on a better constructed team playing a less heliocentric game plan, but that is entirely hypothetical of course.

Other than you what we have recently on the LeBron side of things we have a nice straw man about Jordan partisans claiming he is mentally tougher etc which hadn’t been in the current discussion, and claims that LeBron is better than Jordan because of sustained excellence after the age of 35 while simultaneously maintaining that he can’t be expected to give full effort on defense at his advanced age.

So in other words we’ve had laughable arguments on both sides?

[michaelm]

I mean, in one series he averaged 28 PPG against a terrific defensive team and in the other, he dropped 51 before messing his hand up. In both cases, he went up against significantly better teams. Pinning this on him makes no sense.

Yes, I highly doubt Jordan could have won those series, and whether he would have done significantly better we will never. He might have been on a better constructed team playing a less heliocentric game plan, but that is entirely hypothetical of course.

Other than you what we have recently on the LeBron side of things we have a nice straw man about Jordan partisans claiming he is mentally tougher etc which hadn’t been in the current discussion, and claims that LeBron is better than Jordan because of sustained excellence after the age of 35 while simultaneously maintaining that he can’t be expected to give full effort on defense at his advanced age.

So in other words we’ve had laughable arguments on both sides?

Sure, I have dismissed the margin of victory argument myself obviously. I don’t think the pro-Jordan camp are claiming LeBron has been mythologised however, the argument is mainly that cumulative statistics partly generated after the age of 35 on teams which have not really contended should not be the basis for LeBron being judged the superior player.

[ScrantonBulls]

LeBron isn't playing with AD anymore, what's their record without him this season? With that 70K workload, do you expect him to be 2-way monster like in his peak? You think Jordan can pull something like this in the highest level of basketball?

Read on Twitter

This is Lakers LeBron before Solomon Hill stupidly jumped on his knee that in my opinion ended his physical prime.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

MJ didnt have the drive or passion to play this long. Dude needed to quit twice during his prime. It's always funny when people go on about his passion for the game and will to win. If he was so passionate and wanted to win THAT badly, why did he quit twice during his prime while on championship teams?

You don’t think his father getting murdered might have been a significant event in his life/given him some by pause ?.

And if he was in his prime at age 35 that is a rather good argument for his longevity rather than against it. Indeed he was still good enough to lead a team to a third successive title at that age. Neither he nor LeBron have exhibited sustained excellence after the age of 35.

Imagine comparing MJ's career after quitting for the 2nd time to LeBron's career post 35 (MJ technically won his last title after his age 34 season, while LeBron technically won the title in his age 35 season, but I know that didn't fit your narrative.) Even for an MJ mythologist like yourself, this is just sad. Let's stick to using logic, son.

[INKtastic]

By the way,

let’s clear up some things about help.

Jordan played with an all star 8 times. One time, Scottie was sick and he didn’t play alongside, and one time he only played 17 games with rust. So every time he played with a healthy allstar, he won the championship. Think about that.

The other six, he won the championship every single time. You sure as hell can’t say that about Lebron and he’s even lost when he should have won.
People were calling him GOAT after his first championship. Thats how dominant he was. Lebron’s been chasing a ghost even at age forty because he’s not transcendent like the GOAT.

Lebron sure as heck can’t take over a game like MJ, that much we’ve seen.

Watch on YouTube

[Iwasawitness]

By the way,

let’s clear up some things about help.

Jordan played with an all star 8 times. One time, Scottie was sick and he didn’t play alongside, and one time he only played 17 games with rust. So every time he played with a healthy allstar, he won the championship. Think about that.

The other six, he won the championship every single time. You sure as hell can’t say that about Lebron and he’s even lost when he should have won.
People were calling him GOAT after his first championship. Thats how dominant he was. Lebron’s been chasing a ghost even at age forty because he’s not transcendent like the GOAT.

Lebron sure as heck can’t take over a game like MJ, that much we’ve seen.

Watch on YouTube

I wouldn’t bother with the guy. He immediately stops replying the moment he’s proven wrong.

[michaelm]

MJ didnt have the drive or passion to play this long. Dude needed to quit twice during his prime. It's always funny when people go on about his passion for the game and will to win. If he was so passionate and wanted to win THAT badly, why did he quit twice during his prime while on championship teams?

You don’t think his father getting murdered might have been a significant event in his life/given him some by pause ?.

And if he was in his prime at age 35 that is a rather good argument for his longevity rather than against it. Indeed he was still good enough to lead a team to a third successive title at that age. Neither he nor LeBron have exhibited sustained excellence after the age of 35.

Imagine comparing MJ's career after quitting for the 2nd time to LeBron's career post 35 (MJ technically won his last title after his age 34 season, while LeBron technically won the title in his age 35 season, but I know that didn't fit your narrative.) Even for an MJ mythologist like yourself, this is just sad. Let's stick to using logic, son.

What on earth are you on about ?. And who is mythologising now ?.

Unless they have changed how arithmetic works fairly recently Lebron was born in December 1984 and won his 3rd title in June 2016 and his 4th in June 2020. Jordan was born in February 1963 and won the 3rd title of the second threepeat in June 1998, and his 4th and 5th titles in June 1996 and June 1997. Your point is ?.

And yes Lebron was better at doing nothing much after the age of 35, the age at which both players won their last title which was extremely creditable in both cases with both being FMVP at said age.

[bledredwine]

Serious question: What is the point of mentioning that LeBron played in two of the most lopsided NBA finals in history if we all know he isn't the reason for them being so lopsided?

Because if he could score at will and is actually in the GOAT debate, it shouldn't be that much of a slaughter.

But we're talking about a guy who not only (choked) lost his team a championship (2011), but also participated in two of the worst finals slaughters of all time, with a finals record of 4-6. 30% of those fall into that first sentence. That definitely matters.

I mean, in one series he averaged 28 PPG against a terrific defensive team and in the other, he dropped 51 before messing his hand up. In both cases, he went up against significantly better teams. Pinning this on him makes no sense.

2011 was a choke and there's no way Jordan doesn't win that series. Absolutely no way.

And then there's the series where Lebron finally had to carry the team's scoring to the point Jordan used to and shot .397 from the field. He has too many weaknesses compared to Jordan and it shows.

[bledredwine]

By the way,

let’s clear up some things about help.

Jordan played with an all star 8 times. One time, Scottie was sick and he didn’t play alongside, and one time he only played 17 games with rust. So every time he played with a healthy allstar, he won the championship. Think about that.

The other six, he won the championship every single time. You sure as hell can’t say that about Lebron and he’s even lost when he should have won.
People were calling him GOAT after his first championship. Thats how dominant he was. Lebron’s been chasing a ghost even at age forty because he’s not transcendent like the GOAT.

Lebron sure as heck can’t take over a game like MJ, that much we’ve seen.

Watch on YouTube

One game? Gamescores, used to measure effectiveness of an individual game-
Jordan has 19 of the top 100 game scores of all time single handedly, Lebron has 3.

If you're going to post about scoring streaks? You know this isn't close.

Jordan leads the league with 8 50 point playoff games. No active player has half of that. At one point, the stat was 50 point playoff games since 84 - Jordan 8, rest of league 13 (since then and the 3 point boom it's changed).

He had only 6 playoff games in his career of under 20 points. That means he was statistically more likely to score 50 than under 20.

Heck, I'll eclipse that one carry Lebron example in Jordan's 6 finals runs alone; how about the flu game? Or when Jordan scored the Bulls 4th quarter points in 93 before Paxson hits the 3? Remember the game winner, game winning assist to Kerr, multiple clutch shots in almost every series?

1993 - 41 ppg setting a record in the finals with mostly 2's and absurd efficiency? Lebron's never touched that. Heck, what Lebron did is allow KD to do 35 ppg worth of that while he was guarding him! That's the closest we've seen from Lebron.... was from his opposing player!


How about the 13 field goals straight without missing in the 91 finals, capping it off with "the move"?
1992 finals- 6 3's in a half and "the shrug", setting the finals record for points in a half?
How about the steal, layup, championship winner all in a row? And then if I use the playoffs like you, there's far more, like Jordan's back to back 50 point games against the Cavs, the only in NBA history btw. Jordan has 7 of the top 10 playoff scoring averages of all time and averaged 40 on 5 series, including once in the finals.

In 1991 finals, he had the 3rd most assists of all time behind Russell (inflated) and Magic himself, and that's alongside 31.2 PPG, 6.6 rb (shooting guard btw), 2.8 steals, 1.4 blocks on .558 from the field.

Yeah, Lebron can't do what Jordan did. He couldn't even eclipse his stats in an inflated era... cumulative stats are what he's got, for the millionth time.

[Iwasawitness]

Because if he could score at will and is actually in the GOAT debate, it shouldn't be that much of a slaughter.

But we're talking about a guy who not only (choked) lost his team a championship (2011), but also participated in two of the worst finals slaughters of all time, with a finals record of 4-6. 30% of those fall into that first sentence. That definitely matters.

I mean, in one series he averaged 28 PPG against a terrific defensive team and in the other, he dropped 51 before messing his hand up. In both cases, he went up against significantly better teams. Pinning this on him makes no sense.

2011 was a choke and there's no way Jordan doesn't win that series. Absolutely no way.

And then there's the series where Lebron finally had to carry the team's scoring to the point Jordan used to and shot .397 from the field. He has too many weaknesses compared to Jordan and it shows.

This is another example of why I don’t really bother with you anymore. 90% of the time, Jordan fans, and you especially, will go right back to 2011 in a situation where we aren’t even talking about it and incorrectly say LeBron choked, even though he didn’t.

In this case, I state why you’re wrong about 2014 and 2018, and your immediate response is to bring up 2011. And then weirdly enough, you bring up 2015 and try to compare it to the scoring load Jordan played, while conveniently ignoring that LeBron was also the one running the offense, was working with almost no spacing, and was up against a far more advanced defense than anything Jordan ever went up against that wasn’t the bad boy pistons.

Again, people, don’t waste your time with this guy.

Oh and BTW, Jordan doesn’t win in 2011 with that kind of roster.

[bledredwine]

Man, talk about doing more in way less time!
(trophies)

Finals appearances
Lebron 10. Jordan 6.

Championships
Leborn 4. Jordan 6.

Reg. Season MVP
Lebron 4. Jordan 5.

Finals MVP
Lebron 4. Jordan 6.

Rookie of the Year
Lebron 1. Jordan 1.

Scoring Titles
Lebron 1. Jordan 10.

Assist Leader
Lebron 1. Jordan 0.

Steals Leader
Lebron 0. Jordan 3.

AS Selections
Lebron 20. Jordan 14.

All NBA Selections
Lebron 20. Jordan 11.

All defensive Selections
Lebron 6. Jordan 9.

Lebron has excellent games. Jordan's best games would actually embarrass teams.
That's the difference in dominance.

[Rust_Cohle]

I mean, in one series he averaged 28 PPG against a terrific defensive team and in the other, he dropped 51 before messing his hand up. In both cases, he went up against significantly better teams. Pinning this on him makes no sense.

2011 was a choke and there's no way Jordan doesn't win that series. Absolutely no way.

And then there's the series where Lebron finally had to carry the team's scoring to the point Jordan used to and shot .397 from the field. He has too many weaknesses compared to Jordan and it shows.

This is another example of why I don’t really bother with you anymore. 90% of the time, Jordan fans, and you especially, will go right back to 2011 in a situation where we aren’t even talking about it and incorrectly say LeBron choked, even though he didn’t.

In this case, I state why you’re wrong about 2014 and 2018, and your immediate response is to bring up 2011. And then weirdly enough, you bring up 2015 and try to compare it to the scoring load Jordan played, while conveniently ignoring that LeBron was also the one running the offense, was working with almost no spacing, and was up against a far more advanced defense than anything Jordan ever went up against that wasn’t the bad boy pistons.

Again, people, don’t waste your time with this guy.

Oh and BTW, Jordan doesn’t win in 2011 with that kind of roster.

I disagree with that last line while understanding your frustration. MJ absolutely wins 2011 considering a mediocre LeBron for that finals the Heat still pushed it to 6. They don’t blow game 2 with MJ.

[Iwasawitness]

2011 was a choke and there's no way Jordan doesn't win that series. Absolutely no way.

And then there's the series where Lebron finally had to carry the team's scoring to the point Jordan used to and shot .397 from the field. He has too many weaknesses compared to Jordan and it shows.

This is another example of why I don’t really bother with you anymore. 90% of the time, Jordan fans, and you especially, will go right back to 2011 in a situation where we aren’t even talking about it and incorrectly say LeBron choked, even though he didn’t.

In this case, I state why you’re wrong about 2014 and 2018, and your immediate response is to bring up 2011. And then weirdly enough, you bring up 2015 and try to compare it to the scoring load Jordan played, while conveniently ignoring that LeBron was also the one running the offense, was working with almost no spacing, and was up against a far more advanced defense than anything Jordan ever went up against that wasn’t the bad boy pistons.

Again, people, don’t waste your time with this guy.

Oh and BTW, Jordan doesn’t win in 2011 with that kind of roster.

I disagree with that last line while understanding your frustration. MJ absolutely wins 2011 considering a mediocre LeBron for that finals the Heat still pushed it to 6. They don’t blow game 2 with MJ.

Who is running the offense with MJ on that 2011 Heat team?

[michaelm]

I mean, in one series he averaged 28 PPG against a terrific defensive team and in the other, he dropped 51 before messing his hand up. In both cases, he went up against significantly better teams. Pinning this on him makes no sense.

2011 was a choke and there's no way Jordan doesn't win that series. Absolutely no way.

And then there's the series where Lebron finally had to carry the team's scoring to the point Jordan used to and shot .397 from the field. He has too many weaknesses compared to Jordan and it shows.

This is another example of why I don’t really bother with you anymore. 90% of the time, Jordan fans, and you especially, will go right back to 2011 in a situation where we aren’t even talking about it and incorrectly say LeBron choked, even though he didn’t.

In this case, I state why you’re wrong about 2014 and 2018, and your immediate response is to bring up 2011. And then weirdly enough, you bring up 2015 and try to compare it to the scoring load Jordan played, while conveniently ignoring that LeBron was also the one running the offense, was working with almost no spacing, and was up against a far more advanced defense than anything Jordan ever went up against that wasn’t the bad boy pistons.

Again, people, don’t waste your time with this guy.

Oh and BTW, Jordan doesn’t win in 2011 with that kind of roster.

He vs Scranton Bulls is a dead heat at worst I would have thought, and i obviously prefer the poster who aligns with my opinion of course as it would appear do you. Scranton recently told me that being 35 was different depending on the identity of the player.

You at least post a consistent line of argument, but if bledred is providing selected stats to support his case so are most others. I haven’t seen much argument even from you that LeBron’s case stands on anything other than cumulative stats, “didn’t have enough help” or longevity. Sure he can still put up stats, but not to much purpose imo since the 2020 title. And it is essentially being argued that the guy who was FMVP in 4 title wins after he turned 30, the last at the age of 35, had insufficient longevity, not that 2 titles as FMVP after turning 30 as LeBron managed is anything to sneer at of course.

I would partly put the 2011 loss to LeBron trying to involve the other Heatles too much, he needed to take total charge for that poorly constructed roster to succeed, and duly did so going forward to win 2 titles. I watched the bad last quarter game live in a sports bar (in San Antonio as it happens) and I don’t see how that can be classified as him doing other than disappearing though. He like everyone except Magic needed to learn to win, and Jordan said he needed to do so himself. I am not sufficiently familiar with Jordan’s early career to know whether he had any bad games or series on a similar level to LeBron in the 2011 finals, but he didn’t in either threepeat. And if the Heatles roster was poorly constructed that was at least partly on LeBron.

[INKtastic]

By the way,

let’s clear up some things about help.

Jordan played with an all star 8 times. One time, Scottie was sick and he didn’t play alongside, and one time he only played 17 games with rust. So every time he played with a healthy allstar, he won the championship. Think about that.

The other six, he won the championship every single time. You sure as hell can’t say that about Lebron and he’s even lost when he should have won.
People were calling him GOAT after his first championship. Thats how dominant he was. Lebron’s been chasing a ghost even at age forty because he’s not transcendent like the GOAT.

Lebron sure as heck can’t take over a game like MJ, that much we’ve seen.

Watch on YouTube

One game? Gamescores, used to measure effectiveness of an individual game-
Jordan has 19 of the top 100 game scores of all time single handedly, Lebron has 3.

If you're going to post about scoring streaks? You know this isn't close.

Jordan leads the league with 8 50 point playoff games. No active player has half of that. At one point, the stat was 50 point playoff games since 84 - Jordan 8, rest of league 13 (since then and the 3 point boom it's changed).

He had only 6 playoff games in his career of under 20 points. That means he was statistically more likely to score 50 than under 20.

Heck, I'll eclipse that one carry Lebron example in Jordan's 6 finals runs alone; how about the flu game? Or when Jordan scored the Bulls 4th quarter points in 93 before Paxson hits the 3? Remember the game winner, game winning assist to Kerr, multiple clutch shots in almost every series?

1993 - 41 ppg setting a record in the finals with mostly 2's and absurd efficiency? Lebron's never touched that. Heck, what Lebron did is allow KD to do 35 ppg worth of that while he was guarding him! That's the closest we've seen from Lebron.... was from his opposing player!


How about the 13 field goals straight without missing in the 91 finals, capping it off with "the move"?
1992 finals- 6 3's in a half and "the shrug", setting the finals record for points in a half?
How about the steal, layup, championship winner all in a row? And then if I use the playoffs like you, there's far more, like Jordan's back to back 50 point games against the Cavs, the only in NBA history btw. Jordan has 7 of the top 10 playoff scoring averages of all time and averaged 40 on 5 series, including once in the finals.

In 1991 finals, he had the 3rd most assists of all time behind Russell (inflated) and Magic himself, and that's alongside 31.2 PPG, 6.6 rb (shooting guard btw), 2.8 steals, 1.4 blocks on .558 from the field.

Yeah, Lebron can't do what Jordan did. He couldn't even eclipse his stats in an inflated era... cumulative stats are what he's got, for the millionth time.

2016 finals LeBron led both teams in Points, Assists, Rebounds, Blocks and Steals. Easily the most complete player ever.

[ScrantonBulls]

2011 was a choke and there's no way Jordan doesn't win that series. Absolutely no way.

And then there's the series where Lebron finally had to carry the team's scoring to the point Jordan used to and shot .397 from the field. He has too many weaknesses compared to Jordan and it shows.

This is another example of why I don’t really bother with you anymore. 90% of the time, Jordan fans, and you especially, will go right back to 2011 in a situation where we aren’t even talking about it and incorrectly say LeBron choked, even though he didn’t.

In this case, I state why you’re wrong about 2014 and 2018, and your immediate response is to bring up 2011. And then weirdly enough, you bring up 2015 and try to compare it to the scoring load Jordan played, while conveniently ignoring that LeBron was also the one running the offense, was working with almost no spacing, and was up against a far more advanced defense than anything Jordan ever went up against that wasn’t the bad boy pistons.

Again, people, don’t waste your time with this guy.

Oh and BTW, Jordan doesn’t win in 2011 with that kind of roster.

He vs Scranton Bulls is a dead heat at worst I would have thought , and i obviously prefer the poster who aligns with my opinion of course as it would appear do you. Scranton recently told me that being 35 was different depending on the identity of the player.

You at least post a consistent line of argument, but if bledred is providing selected stats to support his case so are most others. I haven’t seen much argument even from you that LeBron’s case stands on anything other than cumulative stats, “didn’t have enough help” or longevity. Sure he can still put up stats, but not to much purpose imo since the 2020 title. And it is essentially being argued that the guy who was FMVP in 4 title wins after he turned 30, the last at the age of 35, had insufficient longevity, not that 2 titles as FMVP after turning 30 as LeBron managed is anything to sneer at of course.

I would partly put the 2011 loss to LeBron trying to involve the other Heatles too much, he needed to take total charge for that poorly constructed roster to succeed, and duly did so going forward to win 2 titles. I watched the bad last quarter game live in a sports bar (in San Antonio as it happens) and I don’t see how that can be classified as him doing other than disappearing though. He like everyone except Magic needed to learn to win, and Jordan said he needed to do so himself. I am not sufficiently familiar with Jordan’s early career to know whether he had any bad games or series on a similar level to LeBron in the 2011 finals, but he didn’t in either threepeat. And if the Heatles roster was poorly constructed that was at least partly on LeBron.

I

You have really been struggling lately michaelm. I see you got wildly confused and didn't even understand that MJ won his last championship during his age 34 season and that LeBron won it during his age 35 season. Take a look at basketball reference during those season and let me know if you still don't understand.

[Iwasawitness]

2011 was a choke and there's no way Jordan doesn't win that series. Absolutely no way.

And then there's the series where Lebron finally had to carry the team's scoring to the point Jordan used to and shot .397 from the field. He has too many weaknesses compared to Jordan and it shows.

This is another example of why I don’t really bother with you anymore. 90% of the time, Jordan fans, and you especially, will go right back to 2011 in a situation where we aren’t even talking about it and incorrectly say LeBron choked, even though he didn’t.

In this case, I state why you’re wrong about 2014 and 2018, and your immediate response is to bring up 2011. And then weirdly enough, you bring up 2015 and try to compare it to the scoring load Jordan played, while conveniently ignoring that LeBron was also the one running the offense, was working with almost no spacing, and was up against a far more advanced defense than anything Jordan ever went up against that wasn’t the bad boy pistons.

Again, people, don’t waste your time with this guy.

Oh and BTW, Jordan doesn’t win in 2011 with that kind of roster.

He vs Scranton Bulls is a dead heat at worst I would have thought , and i obviously prefer the poster who aligns with my opinion of course as it would appear do you. Scranton recently told me that being 35 was different depending on the identity of the player.

You at least post a consistent line of argument, but if bledred is providing selected stats to support his case so are most others. I haven’t seen much argument even from you that LeBron’s case stands on anything other than cumulative stats, “didn’t have enough help” or longevity. Sure he can still put up stats, but not to much purpose imo since the 2020 title. And it is essentially being argued that the guy who was FMVP in 4 title wins after he turned 30, the last at the age of 35, had insufficient longevity, not that 2 titles as FMVP after turning 30 as LeBron managed is anything to sneer at of course.

I would partly put the 2011 loss to LeBron trying to involve the other Heatles too much, he needed to take total charge for that poorly constructed roster to succeed, and duly did so going forward to win 2 titles. I watched the bad last quarter game live in a sports bar (in San Antonio as it happens) and I don’t see how that can be classified as him doing other than disappearing though. He like everyone except Magic needed to learn to win, and Jordan said he needed to do so himself. I am not sufficiently familiar with Jordan’s early career to know whether he had any bad games or series on a similar level to LeBron in the 2011 finals, but he didn’t in either threepeat. And if the Heatles roster was poorly constructed that was at least partly on LeBron.

I

My case for LeBron has always been the following: I truly believe that at the peak of his career, he was a better basketball player than Jordan. I believe he was a better all around player. I always felt LeBron did more with less. And on top of it, I’m far more impressed with him beating legitimately better teams, in some cases doing so in outright carryjobs, compared to Jordan who rarely had that issue to begin with.

I rarely ever involve longevity in it. In most cases, I acknowledge that LeBron has been padding his stats for at least three years now. If there’s one thing I can say I value the longevity aspect for, it’s that if I’m starting a franchise and I have to pick between two players who are very close in talent, I’m picking the one that is elite for longer. To me, LeBron’s longevity accomplishments are more so a cherry on top kind of thing for me, something to add icing to the cake. Sure, longevity does matter, but I tend not to dwell on it.

[ScrantonBulls]

This is another example of why I don’t really bother with you anymore. 90% of the time, Jordan fans, and you especially, will go right back to 2011 in a situation where we aren’t even talking about it and incorrectly say LeBron choked, even though he didn’t.

In this case, I state why you’re wrong about 2014 and 2018, and your immediate response is to bring up 2011. And then weirdly enough, you bring up 2015 and try to compare it to the scoring load Jordan played, while conveniently ignoring that LeBron was also the one running the offense, was working with almost no spacing, and was up against a far more advanced defense than anything Jordan ever went up against that wasn’t the bad boy pistons.

Again, people, don’t waste your time with this guy.

Oh and BTW, Jordan doesn’t win in 2011 with that kind of roster.

He vs Scranton Bulls is a dead heat at worst I would have thought , and i obviously prefer the poster who aligns with my opinion of course as it would appear do you. Scranton recently told me that being 35 was different depending on the identity of the player.

You at least post a consistent line of argument, but if bledred is providing selected stats to support his case so are most others. I haven’t seen much argument even from you that LeBron’s case stands on anything other than cumulative stats, “didn’t have enough help” or longevity. Sure he can still put up stats, but not to much purpose imo since the 2020 title. And it is essentially being argued that the guy who was FMVP in 4 title wins after he turned 30, the last at the age of 35, had insufficient longevity, not that 2 titles as FMVP after turning 30 as LeBron managed is anything to sneer at of course.

I would partly put the 2011 loss to LeBron trying to involve the other Heatles too much, he needed to take total charge for that poorly constructed roster to succeed, and duly did so going forward to win 2 titles. I watched the bad last quarter game live in a sports bar (in San Antonio as it happens) and I don’t see how that can be classified as him doing other than disappearing though. He like everyone except Magic needed to learn to win, and Jordan said he needed to do so himself. I am not sufficiently familiar with Jordan’s early career to know whether he had any bad games or series on a similar level to LeBron in the 2011 finals, but he didn’t in either threepeat. And if the Heatles roster was poorly constructed that was at least partly on LeBron.

I

My case for LeBron has always been the following: I truly believe that at the peak of his career, he was a better basketball player than Jordan. I believe he was a better all around player. I always felt LeBron did more with less. And on top of it, I’m far more impressed with him beating legitimately better teams, in some cases doing so in outright carryjobs, compared to Jordan who rarely had that issue to begin with.

I rarely ever involve longevity in it. In most cases, I acknowledge that LeBron has been padding his stats for at least three years now. If there’s one thing I can say I value the longevity aspect for, it’s that if I’m starting a franchise and I have to pick between two players who are very close in talent, I’m picking the one that is elite for longer. To me, LeBron’s longevity accomplishments are more so a cherry on top kind of thing for me, something to add icing to the cake. Sure, longevity does matter, but I tend not to dwell on it.

Thanks for coming to my defense witness. I still thought you owed me an apology, but we're good now.

[SlimShady83]

FYI ... If Luka wins a chip for Lakers this season, I'm putting him on the next goat thread POLL

[michaelm]

Double

[michaelm]

This is another example of why I don’t really bother with you anymore. 90% of the time, Jordan fans, and you especially, will go right back to 2011 in a situation where we aren’t even talking about it and incorrectly say LeBron choked, even though he didn’t.

In this case, I state why you’re wrong about 2014 and 2018, and your immediate response is to bring up 2011. And then weirdly enough, you bring up 2015 and try to compare it to the scoring load Jordan played, while conveniently ignoring that LeBron was also the one running the offense, was working with almost no spacing, and was up against a far more advanced defense than anything Jordan ever went up against that wasn’t the bad boy pistons.

Again, people, don’t waste your time with this guy.

Oh and BTW, Jordan doesn’t win in 2011 with that kind of roster.

He vs Scranton Bulls is a dead heat at worst I would have thought , and i obviously prefer the poster who aligns with my opinion of course as it would appear do you. Scranton recently told me that being 35 was different depending on the identity of the player.

You at least post a consistent line of argument, but if bledred is providing selected stats to support his case so are most others. I haven’t seen much argument even from you that LeBron’s case stands on anything other than cumulative stats, “didn’t have enough help” or longevity. Sure he can still put up stats, but not to much purpose imo since the 2020 title. And it is essentially being argued that the guy who was FMVP in 4 title wins after he turned 30, the last at the age of 35, had insufficient longevity, not that 2 titles as FMVP after turning 30 as LeBron managed is anything to sneer at of course.

I would partly put the 2011 loss to LeBron trying to involve the other Heatles too much, he needed to take total charge for that poorly constructed roster to succeed, and duly did so going forward to win 2 titles. I watched the bad last quarter game live in a sports bar (in San Antonio as it happens) and I don’t see how that can be classified as him doing other than disappearing though. He like everyone except Magic needed to learn to win, and Jordan said he needed to do so himself. I am not sufficiently familiar with Jordan’s early career to know whether he had any bad games or series on a similar level to LeBron in the 2011 finals, but he didn’t in either threepeat. And if the Heatles roster was poorly constructed that was at least partly on LeBron.

I

You have really been struggling lately michaelm. I see you got wildly confused and didn't even understand that MJ won his last championship during his age 34 season and that LeBron won it during his age 35 season. Take a look at basketball reference during those season and let me know if you still don't understand.

I did indeed see that which was rather my point, if you needed to make a big thing about LeBron turning 35 on Dec 30 2019 and Jordan turning 35 on 17 Feb 1998 you were obviously getting pretty desperate. Both started the season of their last title at age 34, and LeBron turned 35 two days before New Year’s Day 2020 while Jordan did 48 days later in the 1997 -1998 season. Your point was ?. I didn’t even mention, to you at least, that Jordan/the Bulls won 4 titles after Jordan turned 30 to LeBron’s 2, with Jordan FMVP on all 4 occasions, two more titles being rather more significant for most than LeBron being 48 days older for the second of his two titles as FMVP if we are talking longevity.