It was a nice run, Jokic

[Ito]

No.. actually I was about to edit my post and say not just any player that I was just talking about Wemby.. yes any player can look decent for a few years but we are not talking about any player we are talking about a player that’s Yao size but moving like Durant to make it easier for you to understand

Yes, he's a generational prospect. But like any player, his career could any time. Or he could get too slow as he ages, might never realize his potential. Not even a half-decade in, there are so many what-ifs that it literally doesn't make any logical sense to make such claims before he has any achievements of relevance to an ATG type of ranking.

It simply isn't substantive. It's just a projection, and it can be done quite handily without taking needless shots at an actual ATG player.

I mean where was my shot at Durant again ? I said he flopped after golden state.. which is true.. failed in Brooklyn.. failed in phoenix.. looks awkward now in a rockets uniform?? But this is just my opinion let’s see how it plays out I guess… and those who know know I had Westbrook’s back during his OKC days .. so I’m not sure where I’m hating on Durant if that’s what’s being insinuated here

[reload141]

This thread isn’t aging well at all

[tsherkin]

I mean where was my shot at Durant again ? I said he flopped after golden state.. which is true.. failed at Brooklyn.. failed in phoenix.. looks awkward now in a rockets uniform?? But this is just my opinion let’s see how it plays out I guess

Right, but taking pot shots at a guy who has been running into roster-related issues due to the health of other players and the like is similarly not sensible. Especially since he's amidst establishing himself as arguably the greatest mid-range shooter in league history. A debatable point, but one worth discussing. It hasn't been a flop, he just hasn't won a title since he left the Warriors, and that's far from the only measure of substantive value.

And he doesn't look awkward in Houston at all. They're 7-3 and he's a MASSIVE addition for them, given their defense and offensive needs. So again... if you want to talk about Wemby (in a Jokic thread, no less), it's entirely possible to do it without making weird claims about Durant.

[Ito]

This thread isn’t aging well at all

Give it about 5-10 years

[Woodsanity]

Of course Jokic shouldn't care what I think. But I don't even talk about rings with Jokic because he's clearly not a top 5 player. I talk about conference finals. If you're a top 15 player you should be leading your team to conference finals consistently. Now Championships are harder because maybe there's a top 5 or top 10 player in the league or in your conference. But to say that it's expecting too much from Jokic to make a conference finals is laughable. Here's the irony about Jokic. Jokic stands will claim he's one of the best centers ever but if you compare his defense to any other great big it's clearly the worst. Now his offense is clearly out of this world, but in the playoffs this dynamic breaks. Playoff basketball forces Jokic to do more on both ends and play longer minutes.

Look at that game 7 vs. the T-Wolves. He played 46+ minutes. Carried the offense. And was supposed to be the anchor for the defense. But he couldn't deliver. And they got sent home by a young Ant and Rudy Gobert. This is the reality with Jokic. The bigger the game. The more the Nuggets need to rely on his offense. The more minutes Jokic needs to play. And what's going to give is his ability to anchor the defense. Jokic is a center. Center's anchor defenses. But with Jokic you basically need to treat him like Steph and hide him.

Obviously we'll see, but if Wemby plays Jokic in the playoffs let's see what happens. If Wemby knocks Jokic out 4 or 5 years in a row. Even if somehow the Nuggets win this year. There's no way I'm taking Jokic over Wemby period.

And I love the new age basketball fan. The issue isn't Jokic's inability to lead his team. The issue is always with his teammates. A lot of players could have tried to play like Jokic. They didn't because it's inefficient to have one guy dominate the ball and do everything. As much as Jokic fans whine and complain and talk about Tristan Thompson the reality is that you have to hold their feet to the fire and talk about winning in the playoffs. Because if you don't we are comparing apples and oranges. Other great players did everything they could to win. They didn't do everything they could to put up nice stat lines.

In the regular season most games players move at a leisurely pace. Jokic can do his thing and just dominate. Passing, rebounding, scoring. Most efficient games we've seen. But playoff basketball is different. The intensity ratchets up. Scoring is harder. Defense is more intense. What passes for good enough defense by Jokic now needs to be even better. The energy exertion on each play is greater. And starters play longer minutes. All of this to say, what comes so easy to Jokic in the regular season doesn't come as easy anymore. If I had to pick a big to win a random regular season game I might take Jokic. But if I had to pick a big to win a Playoff series, there's no way I'm taking Jokic.

Jokic fans want to talk about the supporting cast. It's not the supporting cast its him. His teammates know he's dog tired. All year long, when they needed a clutch basket they went to Jokic. All year long when they needed to get out of a rut they went to Jokic. All year long, when they needed a play they went to Jokic. But in that game 7 playing 46 minutes Jokic doesn't have the stamina to deliver down the stretch.

Watch on YouTube

Yeah, these stat lines look really good in the regular season. Luka putting up insane stats. Giannis putting up insane stats. Jokic putting up insane stats. But the playoffs are about a team. That's why the pacers made it last year and took OKC to 7. These teams that have players putting up insane stat lines are building muscle memory that will lead to failure in the playoffs. Only way Jokic wins in the playoffs is if his competition gets injured.

Wemby on the other hand plays as part of a team. The entire season is a process of learning to play better as a team. When the playoffs come knocking, Spurs will have had 82 tune-up games and be ready to play. This is how basketball works. The way the West looks now, if Jokic doesn't make a conference finals this year, I don't think he'll make it again. This is the worse Wemby will be and OKC isn't going anywhere. Ultimately, Wemby is coming. This year, next year. It really doesn't matter. I expect the Spurs to dominate the Nuggets in the playoffs. Attack Jokic relentelessly, pressure him coming up the floor. Throw bodies at him. Tire him out. Attack the rim relentlessly. And eventually they'll break his will and with it the team. This is basketball.

Not the PER or the BPM or whatever other advanced stat that shows Jokic is the best everrrrr. Real basketball is a game of imposing your will physically on the opponents. Dominating your opponents not just on the court but mentally. This can only happen in the playoffs. NBA has 82 games. If you lose one who cares.

You still haven't answered my question cause your a ducker. If his supporting cast was so good why is it that so many of the players become irrelevant, out of the league or playing in Europe after leaving the Nuggets?

[Ito]

I mean where was my shot at Durant again ? I said he flopped after golden state.. which is true.. failed at Brooklyn.. failed in phoenix.. looks awkward now in a rockets uniform?? But this is just my opinion let’s see how it plays out I guess

Right, but taking pot shots at a guy who has been running into roster-related issues due to the health of other players and the like is similarly not sensible. Especially since he's amidst establishing himself as arguably the greatest mid-range shooter in league history. A debatable point, but one worth discussing. It hasn't been a flop, he just hasn't won a title since he left the Warriors, and that's far from the only measure of substantive value.

And he doesn't look awkward in Houston at all. They're 7-3 and he's a MASSIVE addition for them, given their defense and offensive needs. So again... if you want to talk about Wemby (in a Jokic thread, no less), it's entirely possible to do it without making weird claims about Durant.

Obviously Durant gon b a “massive” addition anywhere he goes.. not my argument at all

-edit
Except in GS, he wasn’t a “massive” addition there

[tsherkin]

And I love the new age basketball fan. The issue isn't Jokic's inability to lead his team.

No, it really isn't. That's flagrantly incorrect.

The issue is always with his teammates. A lot of players could have tried to play like Jokic. They didn't because it's inefficient to have one guy dominate the ball and do everything.

Enter 4 years of people discussing how little actual on-ball talent Jokic has had around him as the primary complaint about Denver's roster.

Where have you been? The entire problem Denver has is that they were struggling to put the right kind of supporting cast around him and were only furnishing him with shooters.

Jokic fans want to talk about the supporting cast. It's not the supporting cast its him.

Yes, it is. You can't watch Denver and not know this without purely advancing an agenda. This is elementary stuff.