The Kobe Step Through

[casey]

So you think if Phil Jackson was shown a replay of it and was thinking logically rather than emotionally that he would say it's a travel?

[sixerswillrule]

So you think if Phil Jackson was shown a replay of it and was thinking logically rather than emotionally that he would say it's a travel?

Don't see why he would change his mind. He was right there. He saw the play. He thought it was a travel and was very passionate about it when it wasn't called. Because he felt the refs were wrong, not simply because that was what he wanted...

[casey]

He would change because he's wrong, and he would clrearly see that when watching the replay. You don't think his Laker bias had anything to do with it? You don't think getting another look at it would change his mind? Yeah he saw the play...once, live. Obviously it's an awkward looking play. So it's understandable that somebody might see it wrong on first glance. There were at least 5-6 calls in the game tonight that I thought were one thing but realized I was wrong after seeing the replay.

And if he did still think that, he is an idiot. And anybody else who claims to be a basketball fan who thinks it's a travel after seeing the replay is an idiot. It's clearly not a travel, and anybody with even a moderate knowledge of the game would be able to recognize that.

[Don Ford]

22 pages for a Kobe travelling call? Wow.

[marcroboy]

22 pages for a Kobe travelling call? Wow.

All I'm saying is that sixerswillrule got a lot of free time. All the bashing he took must have kept him from sleeping at night.

[sixerswillrule]

And anybody else who claims to be a basketball fan who thinks it's a travel after seeing the replay is an idiot. It's clearly not a travel, and anybody with even a moderate knowledge of the game would be able to recognize that.

Based on what? Basketball fans watch basketball. This is never used in basketball, so they wouldn't know. That's why people believe that it's a travel. It's never used because players believe that it's a travel. That's why you see such a big reaction from someone like Fisher who was right there in front of the play, and everyone else as already mentioned...It has nothing to do with emotions or wanting a call. In their minds, it's wanting the right call...

So let's examine the situation here. We have a move that gives a player a big advantage, and is allowed by the rules, but is never used. Most players think it's a travel. Most fans think it's a travel. Might as well change the rules...

[Jordan23Forever]

Anyone who thinks that Carmelo play isn't a travel doesn't understand the rules. It's a definite travel. Unambiguous. He declares his right foot as the pivot on the spin, and then takes another step and jumps off his left, with his right foot coming off the floor first followd by the left foot on the jump.

[glydersid]

Anyone who thinks that Carmelo play isn't a travel doesn't understand the rules. It's a definite travel. Unambiguous. He declares his right foot as the pivot on the spin, and then takes another step and jumps off his left, with his right foot coming off the floor first followd by the left foot on the jump.

nah, heres the rule posted before in this thread:

Code: Select all

Section VIII—Pivot

If the player raises his pivot off the floor, he must pass
or attempt a field goal before the foot is returned to the floor.

anyway, i watched the carmelo clip, and at first glance it looked like he took 2 steps after the spin and jumped off his right. maybe thats what phil jackson saw, or kobe, or jvg. but it wasnt a travel.

this thread had been a good read tho lol

[Jordan23Forever]

I don't care what the rule you posted says, it's wrong. There must be another section that deals with the situation in question. You CANNOT pick your pivot foot up FIRST on a jump, because then the other foot is essentially becoming a new pivot foot until it leaves the ground.

I promise you that that's a travel, and you can ask any ref on any level whether it is and get the same answer. They either missed the call or felt Melo didn't gain any advantage (which he really didn't, since Ariza was beat on the LEGAL part of the move and there was no baseline help) and hence didn't call it. But it is most certainly a violation.

[Dr Aki]

I don't care what the rule you posted says, it's wrong. There must be another section that deals with the situation in question. You CANNOT pick your pivot foot up FIRST on a jump, because then the other foot is essentially becoming a new pivot foot until it leaves the ground.

I promise you that that's a travel, and you can ask any ref on any level whether it is and get the same answer. They either missed the call or felt Melo didn't gain any advantage (which he really didn't, since Ariza was beat on the LEGAL part of the move and there was no baseline help) and hence didn't call it. But it is most certainly a violation.

yes you can and its in the OFFICIAL RULEBOOK, and its not wrong, its RIGHT.

And i can promise you its not a travel. go back through this thread and you will find many examples of a step-through using the original pivot foot in the air and jumping off the other air.

stand 3 feet/1 metre away from the basket and do a layup with two steps: your first foot forward is not established UNTIL your second foot lands.

Anyone who thinks that Carmelo play isn't a travel doesn't understand the rules. It's a definite travel. Unambiguous. He declares his right foot as the pivot on the spin, and then takes another step and jumps off his left, with his right foot coming off the floor first followd by the left foot on the jump.

according to your logic, if the pivot foot was established with your first step without the second foot coming down, then the pivot foot will change when you take your second step.

Your travelling violation definition constitutes ONLY 2 STEPS.

your second foot is not established as the pivot foot UNTIL your first foot relands (i.e. a third step).

switching of your pivot constitutes a travel. BUT the step-through move never switches pivot foot. because the original pivot foot is in the air. you must pass or shoot BEFORE the pivot foot returns to the floor (the third step)

this entire BS discussion is because THE MINORITY can't acknowledge how a damn pivot foot is established in the first place and constantly saying "most people" or "everyone" or "the majority" when its blindingly obvious that "most people" or "everyone" or "the majority" are saying that this move is legal and giving the exact same reasons over and over and over again.

its almost like talking to a brick wall.

its like trying to say the earth is flat because "thats how its always been" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary

[prophet_of_rage]

Looking at that play it did look like a travel because it looked like he took two steps after the up and under. It may have just fooled the eye because Carmelo came with a hard drive up of his right knee which looked to my eye like he took a step with his right.

If that happened that is not the same as the Kobe thread. BTW, Sixerswillrule, if you accept that Kobe and PJ know what a travel is and the move is illegal why would you start posting in this thread that Kobe traveled on his up and under jumper. Phil didn't say anything there either. So are you saying Kobe says one thing and does another? If so, how can you base your arguments on that?

Also, if the step through is illegal automatically how then is a spin move legal? That also requires two steps to accomplish.

[prophet_of_rage]

For all those who still debate the legitimacy of the move here it is broken down by Kobe himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e88Z_b756ig&feature=related

[tkb]

Anyone who thinks that Carmelo play isn't a travel doesn't understand the rules. It's a definite travel. Unambiguous. He declares his right foot as the pivot on the spin, and then takes another step and jumps off his left, with his right foot coming off the floor first followd by the left foot on the jump.

Can you please point me to the rule that says that play is a travel?

If you can't, it's not a travel.

[tkb]

Well, what are we going to base this on? How people react or what's laid out in the rulebook? What's more important when determing if it's a travel or not?

All I'm saying is that the majority of people believe this to be a travel. You did. I did. Jeff Van Gundy did. Phil Jackson did. Kobe Bryant did. The rest of the Lakers did. The people who replied during the game threads after seeing that play did. Most of the people around the country after seeing that play did. And nearly the entire NBA, because this move is rarely ever used for that very reason. They think it's a travel...

We're debating what the rule is though, not what people think or not (at least I'm not).

People can think whatever they want, but the rules are what define what's allowed and not random peoples opinion. We can all agree that the play is not a travel by the definitions of the NBA rulebook right?

[Frosty]

I don't care what the rule you posted says, it's wrong. There must be another section that deals with the situation in question. You CANNOT pick your pivot foot up FIRST on a jump, because then the other foot is essentially becoming a new pivot foot until it leaves the ground.

It's messed up but it's true. According to the rule it sounds like you can establish a pivot foot, then lift it up and stand there as long as you want on the other foot. I have no idea why they made this rule, I guess they just didn't think people would use their other foot to step off of and only thought of a jumping situation.

[sixerswillrule]

BTW, Sixerswillrule, if you accept that Kobe and PJ know what a travel is and the move is illegal why would you start posting in this thread that Kobe traveled on his up and under jumper. Phil didn't say anything there either. So are you saying Kobe says one thing and does another? If so, how can you base your arguments on that?

As has been mentioned several times throughout this thread already, there's a big difference between what Carmelo did and what Kobe(and many other players) often do. With all of those common moves, there is no extra step. Sure, if you would show a replay in slow motion, you could catch the player picking up his pivot a split second before jumping off his other foot. But as it happens, it appears that he leaves the ground with both feet simultaneously. Carmelo clearly took a step with his opposite foot after picking up his pivot. That can be seen by everyone. You hardly ever see this move done(because they think it's a travel). So when a move like this is actually used, one of the two possible reactions that I expected occurred. Either it's called a travel, or the entire opposite team screams for a travel. And I'm sure that it will happen again the next time this move is done. Although it could be a while, because no one uses this move for reasons already stated...

[sixerswillrule]

We're debating what the rule is though, not what people think or not (at least I'm not).

No, that debating went on for 19 pages. There's no need for anymore...

[sixerswillrule]

I don't care what the rule you posted says, it's wrong. There must be another section that deals with the situation in question. You CANNOT pick your pivot foot up FIRST on a jump, because then the other foot is essentially becoming a new pivot foot until it leaves the ground.

It's messed up but it's true. According to the rule it sounds like you can establish a pivot foot, then lift it up and stand there as long as you want on the other foot. I have no idea why they made this rule, I guess they just didn't think people would use their other foot to step off of and only thought of a jumping situation.

Exactly. It's a stupid rule in the first place. You really can cover a huge amount of ground by using that move. On top of that, it's a useless rule because no one uses it...

[tracey_nice]

I don't care what the rule you posted says, it's wrong. There must be another section that deals with the situation in question. You CANNOT pick your pivot foot up FIRST on a jump, because then the other foot is essentially becoming a new pivot foot until it leaves the ground.

I promise you that that's a travel, and you can ask any ref on any level whether it is and get the same answer. They either missed the call or felt Melo didn't gain any advantage (which he really didn't, since Ariza was beat on the LEGAL part of the move and there was no baseline help) and hence didn't call it. But it is most certainly a violation.

Thank goodness now that you've promised me I believe you.

[prophet_of_rage]

BTW, Sixerswillrule, if you accept that Kobe and PJ know what a travel is and the move is illegal why would you start posting in this thread that Kobe traveled on his up and under jumper. Phil didn't say anything there either. So are you saying Kobe says one thing and does another? If so, how can you base your arguments on that?

As has been mentioned several times throughout this thread already, there's a big difference between what Carmelo did and what Kobe(and many other players) often do. With all of those common moves, there is no extra step. Sure, if you would show a replay in slow motion, you could catch the player picking up his pivot a split second before jumping off his other foot. But as it happens, it appears that he leaves the ground with both feet simultaneously. Carmelo clearly took a step with his opposite foot after picking up his pivot. That can be seen by everyone. You hardly ever see this move done(because they think it's a travel). So when a move like this is actually used, one of the two possible reactions that I expected occurred. Either it's called a travel, or the entire opposite team screams for a travel. And I'm sure that it will happen again the next time this move is done. Although it could be a while, because no one uses this move for reasons already stated...

You have been arguing since this thread commenced that the original video posted of Kobe was a travel. It isn't. Now you are arguing that Carmelo's move is different than Kobe's and is a travel. Therefore, your premise must include an acceptance that the stepthrough move is sound in principle and Carmelo simply performed the move incorrectly.

That is a completely different argument than the stepthrough move is illegal. Certainly taking an extra hop even with your pivot foot in the air is a travel because you have returned to the ground without attempting a pass or shot. That has nothing to do with establishing a pivot foot. You cannot, with the ball in your possession, leave two feet from the ground and return to the ground without attempting a pass or a shot. You can't even jump in the air and put the ball down for a dribble.