MVP Rankings 1.0

[YLSKillaCam]

Lakers are just too stacked...8-3 is a good record without Gasol, but its clear they are on another level with him. His impact is just huge, and then you have Bynum who should be the starting Center for the All-Star team. Artest is probably going to be 1st team all defense and then you have Odom.

I like Melo orBron right now.

.

This is by far the weakest argument

"His team is too good, so he can't be most valuable."

when the main argument every year on whos MVP is based on record.....then yes, it is a valid to see what kind of help each candidate has.

Yeah, but that argument isn't applicable here. Based on your standard, Kobe would automatically be eliminated from contention before the season even started. The "he has too much help" argument is only applicable when the star doesn't meet expectations. It doesn't apply when he meets expectations. For example, if the Lakers didn't have the one of the top two records in the league, then yeah, the argument would come into play.

In reality, however, the Lakers have the best record in the league. Kobe's playing at a top 1-2 level in the league individually and he's one of the best defenders in the league this year. There's no possible way to say he's not the MVP right now.

Your argument is a canned argument that makes no sense given that there's literally nothing more that Kobe could be doing to help his team win...and if Kobe was doing less...well they wouldn't have the best record in the league and be the favorites (or in contention) for the championship (hence MOST valuable)...while the Lakers would still be in contention for the championship and the top record in the West without Gasol.

[Wile E. Coyote]

That'd be like saying Jordan didn't deserve MVP in '96 when the Bulls were 72-10.

[INKtastic]

Kobe is 5th in PER, Gasol is 6th, Bynum is 22nd. He clearly has the most help.

In 96 the Bulls won 8 more games than the next best team. Kobe needs that kind of separation to offset the value of having better teammates. Last year with those same better teammates, he didn't even finish with the best record and they started the season better last year (17-2) than they have this year (16-3) while playing significantly more road games.

[YLSKillaCam]

Kobe is 5th in PER, Gasol is 6th, Bynum is 22nd. He clearly has the most help.

In 96 the Bulls won 8 more games than the next best team. Kobe needs that kind of separation to offset the value of having better teammates. Last year with those same better teammates, he didn't even finish with the best record and they started the season better last year (17-2) than they have this year (16-3) while playing significantly more road games.

No, sir. Advocating that Kobe needs similar separation from the rest of the league as the best team in NBA history for him to win MVP is a bit much even for a Lebron fan. I could see if Kobe was backed up by a top 20 player of All Time, a top 3 wing defender of all time, and the greatest rebounder of all time....but Kobe doesn't have the same luxuries on this team as Michael did on the 95-96 team.

Lebron on the other hand cannot be MVP if his team regresses from a year ago after adding more help. Lebron has an all-star in Mo Williams (he was an all star last year). He has an All Star center in Shaquille O'Neal. That's three defending all stars on the Cavs. How do you add an all star and become a worse team from a year ago and then have people say that you're still the MVP? It is ridiculous if you think about it.

[Dat Pass]

How do you add an all star and become a worse team from a year ago and then have people say that you're still the MVP? It is ridiculous if you think about it.

Thats a great point, and I think it will come down to that for a lot of voters.

3 STARTERS from a 67 win team are now coming off the bench for this current Cavs roster (Big Z, Varejao and West). Thats pretty damn impressive the more you think about it. So how do they give the "most valuable player" award to a guy that won less games with quite a bit more help? (Added Shaq, Hickson, Moon and Parker while losing no significant pieces)

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Lebron on the other hand cannot be MVP if his team regresses from a year ago after adding more help. Lebron has an all-star in Mo Williams (he was an all star last year). He has an All Star center in Shaquille O'Neal. That's three defending all stars on the Cavs. How do you add an all star and become a worse team from a year ago and then have people say that you're still the MVP? It is ridiculous if you think about it.

This is called "spin".

"Spin" is usually bull.

Let's go ahead and assume the Cavs win 62 and the Lakers win 67. 5 game difference.

Now let's hypothetically take Kobe and LeBron off of their respective teams and replace them with an "average" player at their position. For this Comparison..let's use Mike Miller since he can play both positions so he'll slot in well.


Now, what is Cleveland's win total without LeBron? What is L.A.'s win total without Kobe?

Considering Gasol led a team to 49 wins with Mike Miller(okay, maybe arguably Shane Battier) as his second best player, let's say Gasol now still has a 20/10 Bynum next to him, still has Odom and Artest and Mike Miller. I'm going to stamp 55 wins on the Lakers. Maybe that's too much, possibly. I don't know. Let's go with 52 actually..I'll hedge my bets a little.

Now, what about this Cavs team without LeBron. 35 wins? 40? Surely it's no more than ~42 wins.

Give or take a few, it's a ten game difference between the teams taking the two stars off.

Now, this isn't a sure-fire formula, but it shows us that in this situation, final win shouldn't really shouldn't be an issue as long as both teams have say, over 60 wins. It becomes an issue when you have guys like Wade last year of Bron 2 years ago where they couldn't even muster 50 wins...but 50 wins seems to be the magical number and 60 is ten more than 50. so, simply put, you guys are making it a bigger issue here than it really is/should be.

LeBron's thrown up two or three statistical duds in a row and Kobe is still a level below him as far as that portion goes.

As of today..my rankings
1.) LeBron
2.) Kobe
3.) Carmelo
4.) Dirk
Nobody else deserves recognition at this time.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Now, what is Cleveland's win total without LeBron? What is L.A.'s win total without Kobe?

Considering Gasol led a team to 49 wins with Mike Miller(okay, maybe arguably Shane Battier) as his second best player, let's say Gasol now still has a 20/10 Bynum next to him, still has Odom and Artest and Mike Miller. I'm going to stamp 55 wins on the Lakers. Maybe that's too much, possibly. I don't know. Let's go with 52 actually..I'll hedge my bets a little.

Now, what about this Cavs team without LeBron. 35 wins? 40? Surely it's no more than ~42 wins.

Give or take a few, it's a ten game difference between the teams taking the two stars off.

Now, this isn't a sure-fire formula, but it shows us that in this situation, final win shouldn't really shouldn't be an issue as long as both teams have say, over 60 wins. It becomes an issue when you have guys like Wade last year of Bron 2 years ago where they couldn't even muster 50 wins...but 50 wins seems to be the magical number and 60 is ten more than 50. so, simply put, you guys are making it a bigger issue here than it really is/should be.

By this logic, Oneal(an all-star with Gasol last year) has led a team to 60 wins multiple times, so the Cavs would win more than 42 games.

The fact is that Lebron & Kobe are healthy so team record will be a major factor. Last year, Cav fans made a point of the increase in wins and how it added to Bron's MVP chnaces. So I guess if they dropoff in wins that Bron should lose a little bit.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

By this logic, Oneal(an all-star with Gasol last year) has led a team to 60 wins multiple times, so the Cavs would win more than 42 games.

The fact is that Lebron & Kobe are healthy so team record will be a major factor. Last year, Cav fans made a point of the increase in wins and how it added to Bron's MVP chnaces. So I guess if they dropoff in wins that Bron should lose a little bit.

An increase in wins from 45 to 66. Everyone always talks about how if you have the stats, you need at least 50 wins. LeBron will get those 50, and probably 60 or more. He'll have the stats, he meets the criteria.

And no, your deduction of the logic of my post is simply illogical. You know you're being dumb. Pau Gasol is still in his prime, possibly better than ever, he is still every bit the player he was that year. Shaq is obviously not the same player he was when he did that. In-fact, his all-star performance last year had Phoenix at 46 wins with Steve Nash, Jason Richardson, and half a season of Amare Stoudemire. So, reducing that "supporting cast" would obviously lower the win total of Shaq's team to approximately 42!

[Benedict_Boozer]

^The league isn't stagnant either. Other teams improved along with CLE. It's not like CLE added good players and no one else did, so to say CLE should automatically win more games is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) argument. Also you have to factor in injuries (Shaq has already missed a high number of games, West has his issues) you can't just blindly look at # of wins without context. That applies to Kobe and the Lakers also.

The Kobe fans debating in this thread know this already, clearly some serious homer spin going on.

[Dat Pass]

^The league isn't stagnant either. Other teams improved along with CLE. It's not like CLE added good players and no one else did, so to say CLE should automatically win more games is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) argument. Also you have to factor in injuries (Shaq has already missed a high number of games, West has his issues) you can't just blindly look at # of wins without context. That applies to Kobe and the Lakers also.

The Kobe fans debating in this thread know this already, clearly some serious homer spin going on.

I agree to a certain extent, but you have to admit that the Cavs got quite a bit deeper over the off-season. To have 3 starters from a 66 win team last year come off the bench now, thats quite a luxury. Adding 4 decent/good role players while losing viritually no talent is huge.

Maybe its not fair, but if the Cavs dont come within at least 3 games of last years win total, alot of people are going to use that argument.

And come on, look at it from the other standpoint. Lets say the Lakers added 3 quality role players to last years team, but actually lost more games this year than last.. You sure as hell better believe LeBron fans would jump all over that argument.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

^The league isn't stagnant either. Other teams improved along with CLE. It's not like CLE added good players and no one else did, so to say CLE should automatically win more games is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) argument. Also you have to factor in injuries (Shaq has already missed a high number of games, West has his issues) you can't just blindly look at # of wins without context. That applies to Kobe and the Lakers also.

The Kobe fans debating in this thread know this already, clearly some serious homer spin going on.

I agree to a certain extent, but you have to admit that the Cavs got quite a bit deeper over the off-season. To have 3 starters from a 66 win team last year come off the bench now, thats quite a luxury. Adding 4 decent/good role players while losing viritually no talent is huge.

Maybe its not fair, but if the Cavs dont come within at least 3 games of last years win total, alot of people are going to use that argument.

And come on, look at it from the other standpoint. Lets say the Lakers added 3 quality role players to last years team, but actually lost more games this year than last.. You sure as hell better believe LeBron fans would jump all over that argument.

I can't speak for all Cavs fans, especially not guys like "LebronsCavs", but I personally think the argument is dumb. I wouldn't use it at all, personally.

That 66 win team last year was the perfect storm. Nobody saw it coming, and we obviously weren't built for the playoffs. This year we set ourselves up to succeed in the playoffs and possibly at the cost of some regular season games.

If the Cavs win 60+ games this year, all that means to me is that LeBron lead a damned good team to a damned good record and he fulfills that criteria for MVP voting. Kobe obviously has that criteria filled as well. I give them both check-marks for having team success, and I move on to the next categories.

I also have Kobe as a very close second right now, like, insanely close. Literally, one "Le-Coast" game could have me flip my rankings the next day followed by the next day a "holy **** did you just see what LeBron did to team x tonight?" game which could flip them back.

It's close, but I think overall, LeBron has the better MVP resume as of today. I think as the season goes on it will widen, but anything can happen. It's close.

[INKtastic]

who says the cavs are worse this year - in fact, haven't we already shown we're better by winning in Orlando, something we couldn't do in 5 tries last year? Not just winning, the game really wasn't as close as the final score suggests.

We got off to a slow start to the season, there are multiple reasons for that, we're doing just fine now.

[Wile E. Coyote]

One LeCoast game for the season should be too many.

Kobe doesn't coast at all.

Kobe's ahead right now.

[YLSKillaCam]

^The league isn't stagnant either. Other teams improved along with CLE. It's not like CLE added good players and no one else did, so to say CLE should automatically win more games is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) argument. Also you have to factor in injuries (Shaq has already missed a high number of games, West has his issues) you can't just blindly look at # of wins without context. That applies to Kobe and the Lakers also.

The Kobe fans debating in this thread know this already, clearly some serious homer spin going on.

I agree to a certain extent, but you have to admit that the Cavs got quite a bit deeper over the off-season. To have 3 starters from a 66 win team last year come off the bench now, thats quite a luxury. Adding 4 decent/good role players while losing viritually no talent is huge.

Maybe its not fair, but if the Cavs dont come within at least 3 games of last years win total, alot of people are going to use that argument.

And come on, look at it from the other standpoint. Lets say the Lakers added 3 quality role players to last years team, but actually lost more games this year than last.. You sure as hell better believe LeBron fans would jump all over that argument.

I can't speak for all Cavs fans, especially not guys like "LebronsCavs", but I personally think the argument is dumb. I wouldn't use it at all, personally.

That 66 win team last year was the perfect storm. Nobody saw it coming, and we obviously weren't built for the playoffs. This year we set ourselves up to succeed in the playoffs and possibly at the cost of some regular season games.

If the Cavs win 60+ games this year, all that means to me is that LeBron lead a damned good team to a damned good record and he fulfills that criteria for MVP voting. Kobe obviously has that criteria filled as well. I give them both check-marks for having team success, and I move on to the next categories.

I also have Kobe as a very close second right now, like, insanely close. Literally, one "Le-Coast" game could have me flip my rankings the next day followed by the next day a "holy **** did you just see what LeBron did to team x tonight?" game which could flip them back.

It's close, but I think overall, LeBron has the better MVP resume as of today. I think as the season goes on it will widen, but anything can happen. It's close.

What are you talking about? You're using the same argument except in reverse and it is terrible argument. You're not arguing the Lakers have added talent and gotten worse so Kobe shouldn't be MVP. No, you're arguing something way less persuasive. You're arguing they've added talent and gotten better, so Kobe shouldn't get MVP.

In essence, you're punishing a guy for meeting expectations with his team while advocating for a guy who isn't meeting expectations with his team. It is inconsistent and hypocritical.

[INKtastic]

The lakers are 16-3, they were 17-2 last year. How are they better?

And one thing being overlooked is LeBron won in a landslide last year. Kobe is shooting better this year, but so is LeBron.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

In essence, you're punishing a guy for meeting expectations with his team while advocating for a guy who isn't meeting expectations with his team. It is inconsistent and hypocritical.

I'm not punishing Kobe for anything. I'm giving credit to both players for meeting expectations. It's one part of the MVP criteria, and both are meeting it.

Kobe has a better team around him, and is expected to have a better record.

To say LeBron and the Cavs aren't meeting expectations is border-line ridiculous. They're on-pace to win 62 games.

They won 66 games last year, but the expectation this year, even though we improved, was that our regular season win total would decrease. We made moves to help us in the playoffs and completely over-hauled a 66 win team because of it. You can't expect a completely overhauled team(three new starters) to throw up 70 wins, and nobody did expect that.

It's not some huge surprise the Cavs might not win 66 games again. In-fact, the majority of people had pegged the Cavs win total somewhere between 58-64.

I'm not being hypocritical, you're just wrong in thinking that the Cavs were expected to best 66 wins this year.

Both are meeting expectations. They both fit the criteria of having team success, Kobe gets 5 points, LeBron gets 4. Let's move on to statistics. LeBron gets 5 points, Kobe gets 4. Let's move on to "how good would this team be without this player".LeBron gets 5 points, Kobe gets 4 points. Let's move on to "leadership". Kobe gets 5, LeBron gets 4.5(he loses a half point for the first Chicago game).

Bam, there's my formula. LeBron has the lead by .5 points. Like I said, it's close.

[YLSKillaCam]

In essence, you're punishing a guy for meeting expectations with his team while advocating for a guy who isn't meeting expectations with his team. It is inconsistent and hypocritical.

I'm not punishing Kobe for anything. I'm giving credit to both players for meeting expectations. It's one part of the MVP criteria, and both are meeting it.

Kobe has a better team around him, and is expected to have a better record.

To say LeBron and the Cavs aren't meeting expectations is border-line ridiculous. They're on-pace to win 62 games.

They won 66 games last year, but the expectation this year, even though we improved, was that our regular season win total would decrease. We made moves to help us in the playoffs and completely over-hauled a 66 win team because of it. You can't expect a completely overhauled team(three new starters) to throw up 70 wins, and nobody did expect that.

It's not some huge surprise the Cavs might not win 66 games again. In-fact, the majority of people had pegged the Cavs win total somewhere between 58-64.

I'm not being hypocritical, you're just wrong in thinking that the Cavs were expected to best 66 wins this year.

Both are meeting expectations. They both fit the criteria of having team success, Kobe gets 5 points, LeBron gets 4. Let's move on to statistics. LeBron gets 5 points, Kobe gets 4. Let's move on to "how good would this team be without this player".LeBron gets 5 points, Kobe gets 4 points. Let's move on to "leadership". Kobe gets 5, LeBron gets 4.5(he loses a half point for the first Chicago game).

Bam, there's my formula. LeBron has the lead by .5 points. Like I said, it's close.

So by improve in the playoffs you mean sacrificing seeding (and HCA) by getting a worse record knowing the celts would be healthy?

Were you the one talking about spin??

[Dat Pass]

The lakers are 16-3, they were 17-2 last year. How are they better?

And one thing being overlooked is LeBron won in a landslide last year. Kobe is shooting better this year, but so is LeBron.

Because Gasol missed the first 11 games of the season. And they've won all 7 this season with their starting unit intact by an average of 15 points.

LeBron has more help this year. (Again, 3 starters from last years team are now coming off the bench.) And the Cavs have lost some pretty bad games. (Bulls, @Raptors, @Wizards, @Bobcats)

Both players stats are better than last year. I dont really think that will help out LeBron too much at the end of the year. Most of the voters dont get too into stats. I think they look at the basics. (Kobe - 29-6-4 49% v. 27-7-8 51%) With Kobe 3rd in steals, I really dont think LeBron will get too much of an advantage in the stats department. (Unless Kobes numbers go down)

[YLSKillaCam]

The lakers are 16-3, they were 17-2 last year. How are they better?

And one thing being overlooked is LeBron won in a landslide last year. Kobe is shooting better this year, but so is LeBron.

Lakers record when healthy is 100%. Can't get much better than that.

[Wile E. Coyote]

The lakers are 16-3, they were 17-2 last year. How are they better?

Defense.