Rondo is overrated

[C-izMe]

In my view, someone like Noah is almost as valuable as Rose whose value as a PG was overhyped to an insane degree since its natural for the media idiots to over hype (usually relatively short) scorers, even with average efficiency, on great teams. The Bulls won lots of games without Rose and it wasn't until the absence of Noah as well that they were doomed.

The media made Iverson a superstar when his actual inefficient play may not have deserved much acclaim at all.

It's unfair to blame Rondo for the Celtics lack of offense since for half the season the Celtics veterans were getting in shape and Boston intentionally sacrifices offense(offensive rebounding) to focus on defense.

KG may or may not be the second best center behind Dwight Howard but without a doubt he has been more valuable to the Celtics this post season then even Rondo. When KG leaves the court, the Celtics often look very bad on defense since no one can protect the paint. Rondo is more spectacular to watch but KG's defense is vitally import to why the Celtics aren't home right now watching other teams play.

Wow. Did you just say Noah is more important than Rose? Last year they played nearly half the season without Noah and they were better than they were this year without Rose (with a worse team) so your theory is pretty wrong. Noah is barely above an average center and Rose is the possible best point guard when healthy.

Also it is fair to blame Rondo. If they were near average it wouldn't be but they aren't even decent. The Bulls are defense oriented (or were last year) but they were terrible on offense.

Also when you are THE ONLY SCORER AND YOU HAVE TO TAKE TERRIBLE SHOTS SO HIS EFFICENCY (which wasn't even that bad) BARELY RELEVANT. His impact was slightly overstated though.

Agree with the KG part.

[soxfan2003]

Chronz,

I'm on my phone so I won't make a long post. But Pierce would be a turnover machine if he had to run the offense. He had 8 against Atlanta when Rondo was out.

One game sample in which he shot a ton to score 36 points and carried them to an unexpected win on the road without RA as well. At this stage of his career, PP wouldn't average more then 3.3 turnover per game if Rondo was replaced by a PG that handles the ball less then Rondo. PP has played with bad PG's before and his highest turnover number for his career was 3.8 and that was when he was looking to score more. And really the key thing is team turnovers and the Celtics didn't have a ton in that game...they only had 14 with Pierce really controlling the ball more then he would like due to necessity.

As a PG PP trying to duplicate what Rondo does, PP would be a turnover machine but as a SF with more passing going through him and a non creator at PG with a very respectable outside shot such as a Billups, PP would be fine. That is the situation he usually played with for years and even does today when Rondo is on the bench which I grant you isn't much in these playoffs. The Celtics would still miss Rondo since Rondo has gotten much better then he was in 2008 and is now the second best player on the team behind KG but its not because PP or even RA would fall apart. He proved what he can still do when relatively healthy against the Hawks.

What hurts PP right now more then anything is double teams on the perimeter...so while Rondo does help Celtics including PP have good scoring opportunities when he attracts the defense with his penetration, he also probably makes it a little easier to double PP in the first place.

[83SixersRocked]

Does anybody watch the games? He's a great player, and mercurial, which has been generally acknowledged. What else do you need to know without making it a fanboy argument? It's an Op fail every time without posing who overrates the player, and even moreso when stating it as fact.

[Chronz]

Chronz,

I'm on my phone so I won't make a long post. But Pierce would be a turnover machine if he had to run the offense. He had 8 against Atlanta when Rondo was out.

I never said he should EXCLUSIVELY run the offense, but by your same standard he would be an ASSIST MACHINE if he was able to run the offense. Look at all the games Rondo has missed and his assist tallies, in fact in 540 minutes without Rondo this year he averages 7.9 assist per36 compared to just 3.6 with Rondo on the court (1535minutes). Last year those splits were 2.8 W/Rondo and 5.1 W/Out. And thats with a bum replacing Rondo. If in place of that bum was another star PG who could shoot, Pierce would get more OPPORTUNITIES to run the offense with the PG in place of Rondo being a capable outlet option the way he is for Rondo. That would truly bring out the best in Pierce, he would get to the line more and create more for his teammates (both are skills that are underutilized alongside Rondo)

Also, you're badly mistaken if you think another PG would result in more KG post-ups.
He has always and will always prefer jumpers. We have 17 years of evidence.

What? Where did I say he wouldnt prefer jumpers? What I did say was that the team could run MORE post up sets for KG without fear of teams COMPLETELY ignoring their PG and tilting their defense towards him.
The evidence lay in the numbers, with Rondo on the court KG takes 61% of his shots outside the paint, without Rondo on the court that ratio drops to 54%. His scoring efficiency suffers without Rondo but that should be expected, Im NOT saying Rondo doesnt make his teammates better vs his backup, Im saying a superior offensive PG would allow Boston to utilize other weapons and diversify their attack instead of playing Rondo-Ball which has proven to lead to disastrous turnover play, low rate of fta. A guy like CP3 would provide more efficient passing along with the ability to defer to both KG and Pierce. Teams dont dare CP3 to shoot wide open set shots, this spacing would benefit both Pierce and KG's individual game. Nash could provide much of the same only with better spacing and less efficient passing.

I honestly believe this was the reason Boston tried to trade for CP3 in the first place.

They have other weapons at their disposal but they cant go to them because it marginalizes Rondo.

[Darain]

So for you to consider Rondo a top 5 PG what does he have to do? Average 30/20 on 90% shooting?

Even if he does that noone would respect those numbers, because the big 3 would attract all the attention and noone guards Rondo

Some of these replies just get more and more dumber as the thread goes on.

I was being sarcastic

[turk3d]

Right now I'm going to say that Rondo is the best passing PG in the game with the exception of maybe Paul. And to me passing is the most important characteristic of a pure PG, second being penetration to the basket which he's just as good as any imo. If it weren't for his inconsistent shooting, he'd be #1 no questions asked I say. I think he's going to (has gotten) better at that too and I don't think there's anyone better at defending except for maybe Westbrook and I say maybe to that.

[Higga]

I thought Rondo was overrated going into this year, but he's been an absolute monster lately. Can't hate, the guy has been ballin.

[-[Clippers]-]

Right now I'm going to say that Rondo is the best passing PG in the game with the exception of maybe Paul.

Don't forget about Nash, his skill at passing the rock is still incredible even at his advanced age.

[turk3d]

Right now I'm going to say that Rondo is the best passing PG in the game with the exception of maybe Paul.

Don't forget about Nash, his skill at passing the rock is still incredible even at his advanced age.

Yeah, he's great, just getting a bit old but Rondo also is a heck of a rebounder. Not even Nash could have made the pass to Pietrus in the corner at the end of the game. Nash is pretty much on another planet career wise. Rondo still has a ways to go with regards to his but I'm looking at what he's doing right now and Nash is nowhere the defender that Rondo is but you make a good point.

[Slartibartfast]

Well, if Boston cared about offensive rebounding (they sacrifice it for better transition defense and don't have the bodies for it anyways), their ORtg would be middle of the pack. It would be even better if people felt like going to the line, but KG and Ray never did and Pierce has stopped as he ages. Rondo should be more aggressive there (and has been in the postseason), but it's obviously not his game to live at the stripe.

And every team in the East has struggled to score during the playoffs; that's what happens when you're playing all the best defensive teams.

They play a style meant to maximize the team, they allow Rondo to monopolize the ball because its whats best for the unit. As such its hard for them to get to the line when they are relegated to being outlet options for Rondo. As the primary ball handler its his job to get to the line but hes not good at hitting fts so he tends to shy away from contact. Its no coincidence that when Rondo isnt in the game, the drawfoul rate of KG/Pierce go up, as do their assists.

Obviously the team offense suffers but do not blame them for things Rondo is inhibiting. If Rondo were an elite offensive player, the Celtics would benefit from the spacing and they would be able to diversify their offense so that Pierce could run the O more with their PG being an outlet option for him for once, they would also be able to run more traditional post up sets for KG without worry of collapsing defenses.

Some specious reasoning at work here.

Rondo hardly monopolized the ball for the C's this year: Pierce and KG both put up their highest usage rates in years. Nor were they "relegated to being outlet options for Rondo," to the degree you're implying: they played off Rondo about as much you'd expect any two stars to play off a star PG, maybe even less. And the same applies the other way: sans Pierce in the first 3 games of the season, Rondo's scoring and foul-drawing went way up. Any time a star goes out, there will be usage to absorb and that often leads to statistical inflation for the next best ball-handler/playmaker.

And while there's no doubt the C's offense would function better with Rondo as a bona fide perimeter threat like CP3 or D-Will, that's hardly grounds to zero in on Rondo as a primary hindrance to the C's offense. The C's offense would also function better if any one on the team other than Rondo could offensive rebound their position at a high level, if Ray and Pierce were still athletic enough to give the C's a speed advantage against anyone, if Ray still had anything left as a penetrator, if their bench had anything resembling scoring ability or if KG was still a high-level face-up threat.

I have no problem with your conclusion that CP3 is a better option than Rondo, but the road you traveled to that conclusion had some potholes.