The Official James Harden Thread

jjscap · Post #341 » by **jjscap** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 10:48 am

Honestly it's not too surprising that Harden is beasting now. Because in his earlier games with OKC he was screaming like "I am just too good to be the third option behind Westbrook".. So when you give him the lead role this is what happens. What surprises me is Jeremy Lin's performance. After a serious injury and poor preseason he is playing very well.

seorang · Post #342 » by **seorang** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 11:03 am

jjscap wrote: What surprises me is Jeremy Lin's performance. After a serious injury and poor preseason he is playing very well.

Surely this is the best evidence that preseason means ****

borisadmin · Post #343 » by **borisadmin** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 11:15 am

seorang wrote:
jjscap wrote: What surprises me is Jeremy Lin's performance. After a serious injury and poor preseason he is playing very well.

Surely this is the best evidence that preseason means ****

Not really, it just means that Lin is playing well with Harden being a threat on the court who wasn't there in pre-season. What Houston has now is two guards who are very good on the pick and roll, and a center who sets some almighty screens. It will take a while for teams to catch up with scouting this and I foresee Lin regressing to the mean from two productive games, and Harden also slowing down. One thing about these two is that turnovers will be interesting to keep a tab on - Lin in particular is a high TO guy.

Anyway, I think we've definitely seen that Harden deserved his maximum extension, he's been one of my favourite players from day one and if Houston could swing something in the front court they'll have a good base.

Tave · Post #344 » by **Tave** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 12:20 pm

RoyalWun wrote:Don't get me wrong, what he has done in the past 2 games are amazing for any player.

But until he does this against a playoff team I'm not going to be that impressed.

It's the Pistons and Hawks who both are bottom 5-8 teams this season.

He put up 29/5/5/3/1 against Dallas last year in the playoffs.
He put up 30/7/4/2 against San Antonio last year in the playoffs.

Johnlac1 · Post #345 » by **Johnlac1** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 12:23 pm

Who are these people who are saying Harden had a great game last night? Sure he had 45 pts. and went 14-19 from the floor and 15-17 from the foul line. And his team won away from home. But he had 5 TURNOVERS!!!! Everyone knows that if you have more than 3 tos a game, YOU'RE A LOUSY PLAYER!!!! Even if you score 45 points on 19 shots from the field and your team wins. And what a lousy game Lin had. 21 pts, 7 asts. 10 rbds, and a few steals. What a horrible game. A bad game because he had 3 tos, but not quite as bad as Harden's. I hope the sarcasm wasn't too over the top to all you tos obsessed people who think tos tell the whole story.

WhateverBro · Post #346 » by **WhateverBro** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 12:39 pm

NeZoRiL wrote:LeBron is the best defender in the NBA. Passes just as good as Harden, scorers better then Harden, has three MVP awards....a finals MVP.

Stop it now. Garnett, Howard, Chandler etc. You don't have to use hyperboles to explain the greatness of LeBron. He's clearly the best player in the NBA but statements like that is just

msg4k90 · Post #347 » by **msg4k90** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 12:53 pm

Lin's TO numbers are fine. kobe bryant had 6 TO in his other game and nobody his hatin' on him. lebron james had 5 TO against the knicks and no1 is sayin' crap. so all this TO talk about lin, just shut it please. that's the only thing you look at. harden had 5 TO this game. boo hoo. Lin is only gonna get better with the so called defenses focusing on harden.

the hawks were in the top 10 defense rating last year so I don't understand how people say harden scored on a bad team. everyone always expects miami to shutdown a top scorer though or the celtics.

KDgoat · Post #348 » by **KDgoat** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 1:28 pm

Harden was better than Wade after game 1. Now he's better than Lebron.

Queue his 1/19 performance in the very near future.

RoyalWun · Post #349 » by **RoyalWun** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 1:31 pm

Tave wrote:
RoyalWun wrote:Don't get me wrong, what he has done in the past 2 games are amazing for any player.

But until he does this against a playoff team I'm not going to be that impressed.

It's the Pistons and Hawks who both are bottom 5-8 teams this season.

He put up 29/5/5/3/1 against Dallas last year in the playoffs.
He put up 30/7/4/2 against San Antonio last year in the playoffs.

Ok? I'm happy for him but what does that have to do with this season where he is on a different team and now the main focus of opposing defenses?

Those are his 3rd option numbers last year against good teams. Post his numbers this year against a good team.

Don't worry, I'll wait...

TwentyOne920 · Post #350 » by **TwentyOne920** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 1:31 pm

msg4k90 wrote:Lin's TO numbers are fine. kobe bryant had 6 TO in his other game and nobody his hatin' on him. lebron james had 5 TO against the knicks and no1 is sayin' crap. so all this TO talk about lin, just shut it please. that's the only thing you look at. harden had 5 TO this game. boo hoo. Lin is only gonna get better with the so called defenses focusing on harden.

the hawks were in the top 10 defense rating last year so I don't understand how people say harden scored on a bad team. everyone always expects miami to shutdown a top scorer though or the celtics.

Haven't you heard? Joe Johnson was their best two-way player so they're definitely a lottery team.

On the contrary though losing Marvin Williams will hurt them more. They have a backcourt who can score in bunches, but they lost a glue guy.

Neither Detroit or Atlanta have an amazing perimeter D though.

Post #351 » by **tsherkin** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 2:02 pm

msg4k90 wrote:Lin's TO numbers are fine. kobe bryant had 6 TO in his other game and nobody his hatin' on him. lebron james had 5 TO against the knicks and no1 is sayin' crap. so all this TO talk about lin, just shut it please.

So, apart from breaking the TOS, you've missed the point. It's not the single-game total turnovers that are bothersome, it's that his TOV is 17.8% right now. This, apart from being awful, is consistent with his career to-date, which is problematic. Lebron and Kobe have long histories without turnover issues, so those numbers are outliers.

that's the only thing you look at. harden had 5 TO this game.

No, I looked at his poor FG%, as well as his outlier FT%.

the hawks were in the top 10 defense rating last year so I don't understand how people say harden scored on a bad team.

Bad, no. Lacking strong D on the wing with JJ gone, yes. They'll still be solid, that's not what I was saying. #strawman

everyone always expects miami to shutdown a top scorer though or the celtics.

Shut down? No, volume of shots would dictate otherwise.

"Make for a better case study of offense against strong D," though, that's something else.

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TwentyOne920 · Post #352 » by **TwentyOne920** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 2:50 pm

Just a heads-up, tsherkin - turnover rate can be masked by having a high usage rate. It's how Russell Westbrook manages to have a similar turnover rate to Ty Lawson despite the latter coughing up the ball less.

And a missed shot is at best an extended possession via an offensive rebound (or drawing a shooting foul and getting to the line) and at worst just as bad as a turnover, as it results in zero points and a change in possession. Lose the possession battle and you look at losing the game.

Johnlac1 · Post #353 » by **Johnlac1** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 2:56 pm

While tos, like missed shots, are inherently bad, things have to be analyzed in context. Players who risk more will have more tos. Magic Johnson averaged 4.6 pg in 1984, (4 for his career), and the Lakers still almost won the title that year. It's the final result that counts. There are a number of players in the league who have low to totals only because they rarely pass and hoist up bad shots. I'll take a player like Lin who will get a to or two more over other conservative pgs because he's attacking the basket or making the semi-risky pass that leads to a basket.

Durant Durant · Post #354 » by **Durant Durant** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 3:00 pm

it's scary to think Harden will have more than 45 pts in front of the hometown fans tonight.

Post #355 » by **UGA Hayes** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 3:01 pm

^ Its a good point. Hollinger apparently did a study on assist quality and Lin ranks very high in that respect

Post #356 » by **tsherkin** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 3:10 pm

TwentyOne920 wrote:Just a heads-up, tsherkin - turnover rate can be masked by having a high usage rate.

I'm aware. Lin, however, had a comparable 17.8% TOV with Golden State and 21.4% with the Knicks, which is comparatively poor stacked next to what 30%+ USG guys like Lebron, Kobe, etc manage.
Lin has some well-documented issues in transition, going left and dealing with certain defenses against the PnR that remain problematic.

Over two games. Following knee surgery. It's by no means definitive, it's one poster attacking a throwaway comment about Lin that merely noted Lin is continuing to have turnover issues. 2 games isn't sufficient to evaluate Lin any more so than it is for Harden, I was just pointing out consistency with his previous sample of games.

FWIW, his USG over two games is 21.7%, making that TOV absymal. It was 28.1% in NYK, which makes his TOV there likewise terrible. USG isn't masking his issues protecting the ball.

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LakerFanMan · Post #357 » by **LakerFanMan** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 3:14 pm

Lin and Harden have been great, no doubt about it. I want to see both of them more before I'm convinced they can handle being the focal point on a good team. Houston really needs an interior scorer though. A Boozer type would be perfect.

Post #358 » by **tsherkin** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 3:16 pm

Johnlac1 wrote:While tos, like missed shots, are inherently bad, things have to be analyzed in context. Players who risk more will have more tos. Magic Johnson averaged 4.6 pg in 1984, (4 for his career), and the Lakers still almost won the title that year.

Yes, but he posted 13.1 apg that year. 19.5% USG against 24.6% TOV... But also 42.5% AST.

Totally different scenarios; Lin isn't a volume assist producer and high-volume shooters aren't usually high-TOV% players if they're good because they get a shot up. Most of Lin's TOVs come from mishandling coverage out of PnRs or charging the rim in transition.

It would be revisionist history to suggest Lin hasn't had well-documented issues protecting the ball, and they are still happening.

Given health and games played, it's fair to suggest he'll adapt and develop, but let's call a spade a spade here, shall we?

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Post #359 » by **tsherkin** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 3:16 pm

LakerFanMan wrote:Houston really needs an interior scorer though. A Boozer type would be perfect.

Scola would have been great, heh.

Boozer would have been a fine PnR partner for Harden/Lin. Maybe once he gets amnestied?

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Z_Solidarity · Post #360 » by **Z_Solidarity** » Sat Nov 3, 2012 3:19 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Johnlac1 wrote:While tos, like missed shots, are inherently bad, things have to be analyzed in context. Players who risk more will have more tos. Magic Johnson averaged 4.6 pg in 1984, (4 for his career), and the Lakers still almost won the title that year.

Yes, but he posted 13.1 apg that year. 19.5% USG against 24.6% TOV... But also 42.5% AST.

Totally different scenarios; Lin isn't a volume assist producer and high-volume shooters aren't usually high-TOV% players if they're good because they get a shot up. Most of Lin's TOVs come from mishandling coverage out of PnRs or charging the rim in transition.

It would be revisionist history to suggest Lin hasn't had well-documented issues protecting the ball, and they are still happening.

Given health and games played, it's fair to suggest he'll adapt and develop, but let's call a spade a spade here, shall we?

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Lin just doesn't have good handles. His FT and 3 pt shooting look improved, but he's a combo guard, not a PG. Poor man's Westbrook