2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[_Game7_]

If Harden wins it this might be the first year a non top 5 player in the league has won it. Right now my top5 best players would be..
Lebron
Durant
Kawhi
Curry
Westbrook

[K_chile22]

If Harden wins it this might be the first year a non top 5 player in the league has won it. Right now my top5 best players would be..
Lebron
Durant
Kawhi
Curry
Westbrook

The first year a non YOUR top five doesn't. sure.

[_Game7_]

If Harden wins it this might be the first year a non top 5 player in the league has won it. Right now my top5 best players would be..
Lebron
Durant
Kawhi
Curry
Westbrook

The first year a non YOUR top five doesn't. sure.

Yes, just my opinion. Just shows how stacked the league is right now.

[ChartFiction]

1. Harden
2. Westbrook
3. Leonard
.
.
everyone else

I think it's clearly Harden's at this point unless Westbrook can make a late season push to top 5 seed. You have to respect Kawhi just cause he's up there with anybody stats wise, in every single stat, and his team is dominating on top of it. You could easily make an argument that he deserves it. I just think MVP considerations should include more than just players, so you have to take into account that he's playing with a coach who's done this year in and year out whether he was there or not. I don't know if that's actually fair, but it's a factor.

[Doctor MJ]

So I've been thinking about it lately:

Why isn't LeBron a top contender for the MVP right now?

He's the consensus best player in the league.
His team is #1 in their conference.
His box score stats are stellar.
His +/- stats are stellar.
He's playing plenty of minutes.

I understand that he isn't at his personal best, but no one is.

I say this having basically not thought of him as a top MVP candidate myself this season, but I look at things now, and while I still see arguments for others over him, it seems to me at the very least he should be a top contender.

[Doctor MJ]

Yes, just my opinion. Just shows how stacked the league is right now.

Yup, there are 6 guys who seem like they all must be in the top 5, and that's not including Chris Paul who would be feel like a must if he were healthy.

To the question higher up on the page, '10-11 qualifies and is the opposite thing. Derrick Rose wasn't a Top 5 player when he won the MVP, but the win itself wasn't actually that crazy. People were all just having off years.

[miman15]

So I've been thinking about it lately:

Why isn't LeBron a top contender for the MVP right now?

He's the consensus best player in the league.
His team is #1 in their conference.
His box score stats are stellar.
His +/- stats are stellar.
He's playing plenty of minutes.

I understand that he isn't at his personal best, but no one is.

I say this having basically not thought of him as a top MVP candidate myself this season, but I look at things now, and while I still see arguments for others over him, it seems to me at the very least he should be a top contender.

Because eventhough the cavs are no.1 in the east, they have underperformed. Warriors and Spurs are way ahead record wise, they had a terrible february. They have almost similar record with the rockets, while having a superior roster.

Maybe if the cavs finish with 60+ wins, he has a chance. But it looks dim...

[inDe_eD]

Yes, just my opinion. Just shows how stacked the league is right now.

Yup, there are 6 guys who seem like they all must be in the top 5, and that's not including Chris Paul who would be feel like a must if he were healthy.

To the question higher up on the page, '10-11 qualifies and is the opposite thing. Derrick Rose wasn't a Top 5 player when he won the MVP, but the win itself wasn't actually that crazy. People were all just having off years.

I'm curious how you personally weigh team success Doc. To be more specific, not your interpretation of how it will impact voting, but how you feel it should impact voting.

[Doctor MJ]

So I've been thinking about it lately:

Why isn't LeBron a top contender for the MVP right now?

He's the consensus best player in the league.
His team is #1 in their conference.
His box score stats are stellar.
His +/- stats are stellar.
He's playing plenty of minutes.

I understand that he isn't at his personal best, but no one is.

I say this having basically not thought of him as a top MVP candidate myself this season, but I look at things now, and while I still see arguments for others over him, it seems to me at the very least he should be a top contender.

Because eventhough the cavs are no.1 in the east, they have underperformed. Warriors and Spurs are way ahead record wise, they had a terrible february. They have almost similar record with the rockets, while having a superior roster.

Maybe if the cavs finish with 60+ wins, he has a chance. But it looks dim...

I note that neither Harden nor Westbrook are the teams you mention. I get nervous when I think A is getting the nod over B because B's team isn't as good as C's team.

[Doctor MJ]

Yes, just my opinion. Just shows how stacked the league is right now.

Yup, there are 6 guys who seem like they all must be in the top 5, and that's not including Chris Paul who would be feel like a must if he were healthy.

To the question higher up on the page, '10-11 qualifies and is the opposite thing. Derrick Rose wasn't a Top 5 player when he won the MVP, but the win itself wasn't actually that crazy. People were all just having off years.

I'm curious how you personally weigh team success Doc. To be more specific, not your interpretation of how it will impact voting, but how you feel it should impact voting.

For me personally it could probably be summed up like this:

1) The goal of the game is to win the championship. If you had a theoretical player who could take a bunch girl scouts to 41-41, but even with the Dream Team would still only be 41-41, then it's not simply that he's not my MVP, he's someone I wouldn't pay a dime for. More realistically, if a guy is racking up stats by playing in a way that doesn't seem like it would scale well to a better roster, that hurts him.

2) In general, it's harder to lift a good team to greatness than it is to lift a bad team. If I've got two players then who both have similar impact on their team, and I have no real feelings about fit & portability, tie goes to the guy on the better team.

As I say this though I want to make clear that these rules are not anywhere near enough to figure out all player value comparisons, but they do lay a foundation.

[inDe_eD]

Yup, there are 6 guys who seem like they all must be in the top 5, and that's not including Chris Paul who would be feel like a must if he were healthy.

To the question higher up on the page, '10-11 qualifies and is the opposite thing. Derrick Rose wasn't a Top 5 player when he won the MVP, but the win itself wasn't actually that crazy. People were all just having off years.

I'm curious how you personally weigh team success Doc. To be more specific, not your interpretation of how it will impact voting, but how you feel it should impact voting.

For me personally it could probably be summed up like this:

1) The goal of the game is to win the championship. If you had a theoretical player who could take a bunch girl scouts to 41-41, but even with the Dream Team would still only be 41-41, then it's not simply that he's not my MVP, he's someone I wouldn't pay a dime for. More realistically, if a guy is racking up stats by playing in a way that doesn't seem like it would scale well to a better roster, that hurts him.

2) In general, it's harder to lift a good team to greatness than it is to lift a bad team. If I've got two players then who both have similar impact on their team, and I have no real feelings about fit & portability, tie goes to the guy on the better team.

As I say this though I want to make clear that these rules are not anywhere near enough to figure out all player value comparisons, but they do lay a foundation.

I completely agree.

I've seen your thoughts on Harden and now James, how about for Kawh?

[Doctor MJ]

I'm curious how you personally weigh team success Doc. To be more specific, not your interpretation of how it will impact voting, but how you feel it should impact voting.

For me personally it could probably be summed up like this:

1) The goal of the game is to win the championship. If you had a theoretical player who could take a bunch girl scouts to 41-41, but even with the Dream Team would still only be 41-41, then it's not simply that he's not my MVP, he's someone I wouldn't pay a dime for. More realistically, if a guy is racking up stats by playing in a way that doesn't seem like it would scale well to a better roster, that hurts him.

2) In general, it's harder to lift a good team to greatness than it is to lift a bad team. If I've got two players then who both have similar impact on their team, and I have no real feelings about fit & portability, tie goes to the guy on the better team.

As I say this though I want to make clear that these rules are not anywhere near enough to figure out all player value comparisons, but they do lay a foundation.

I completely agree.

I've seen your thoughts on Harden and now James, how about for Kawh?

I'm torn on Kawhi. Both the praise and the criticism of his impact make sense to me.

Part of what's tough here is that Harden is not LeBron. LeBron vs Kawhi, it really just becomes a question of how close to 100% LeBron is before he gets the nod over Kawhi, none of us have any debate over who the better player truly is.

But Harden, man, what if I think Harden is more impactful but his lack of 2-way versatility means I'd rather have Kawhi? I don't think there's a single right answer there.

Also, on Harden even though I think you already know how I feel - while scaling my prove to be a factor, as things stand I don't really see a scaling issue with Harden on offense. I think he has a great argument for being the best offensive player in the league and hence it's not really an issue of whether you can build a championship team around him and just whether you can more easily build around Kawhi.

Last thought on Kawhi: I don't agree with people who dismiss Kawhi because of how Pop has been to his development. I think it's absolutely true that in another setting Kawhi never becomes what he is today, but he's not going to forget things just because he goes to another setting. Additionally, what if the unprecedented positive culture of the Spurs makes it so that no matter who is the star, the team won't fall off that badly without him, are we really going to say that that means that no Spur should win the MVP?

I always think it's important to consider what others would do in an analogous position. If, say, Harden has more impact than Kawhi right now, but Harden wouldn't have as much actual lift as Kawhi were he in a position like Kawhi's in, then to me Kawhi should get the nod.

As I say all this though, I should come right out and say that when Houston had a GOAT level offense earlier in the season, I found it very tough to seriously consider anyone other than Harden for MVP. It's irrational that a slight drop from that changes my perspective, but that doesn't mean my changed perspective is the irrational one. I'll need to think further on all of this before I make up my mind.

[kabstah]

So I've been thinking about it lately:

Why isn't LeBron a top contender for the MVP right now?

He's the consensus best player in the league.
His team is #1 in their conference.
His box score stats are stellar.
His +/- stats are stellar.
He's playing plenty of minutes.

I understand that he isn't at his personal best, but no one is.

I say this having basically not thought of him as a top MVP candidate myself this season, but I look at things now, and while I still see arguments for others over him, it seems to me at the very least he should be a top contender.

I feel like you could say the same for Curry, except for being the consensus best player. He won't get MVP for reasons both fair and unfair though.

[DeKobe DeBryant]

LeBron with 18/13/15, 3 blocks, on 7/11 shooting tonight.

They sleep

[-TheDocOfDenial]

So I've been thinking about it lately:

Why isn't LeBron a top contender for the MVP right now?

He's the consensus best player in the league.
His team is #1 in their conference.
His box score stats are stellar.
His +/- stats are stellar.
He's playing plenty of minutes.

I understand that he isn't at his personal best, but no one is.

I say this having basically not thought of him as a top MVP candidate myself this season, but I look at things now, and while I still see arguments for others over him, it seems to me at the very least he should be a top contender.

Not any more. Also plays in the east.

[K_chile22]

Something I haven't seen pointed out: Harden is the catalyst for a team just 0.1 point per 100 away from having a top 10 offense of all time. In a heap of 4 teams at 114.5.

[Doctor MJ]

So I've been thinking about it lately:

Why isn't LeBron a top contender for the MVP right now?

He's the consensus best player in the league.
His team is #1 in their conference.
His box score stats are stellar.
His +/- stats are stellar.
He's playing plenty of minutes.

I understand that he isn't at his personal best, but no one is.

I say this having basically not thought of him as a top MVP candidate myself this season, but I look at things now, and while I still see arguments for others over him, it seems to me at the very least he should be a top contender.

Not any more. Also plays in the east.

Interesting. Who would you say has displaced him?

[-TheDocOfDenial]

So I've been thinking about it lately:

Why isn't LeBron a top contender for the MVP right now?

He's the consensus best player in the league.
His team is #1 in their conference.
His box score stats are stellar.
His +/- stats are stellar.
He's playing plenty of minutes.

I understand that he isn't at his personal best, but no one is.

I say this having basically not thought of him as a top MVP candidate myself this season, but I look at things now, and while I still see arguments for others over him, it seems to me at the very least he should be a top contender.

Not any more. Also plays in the east.

Interesting. Who would you say has displaced him?

You could argue Leonard and durant are better. Its not like this is 2011 lebron who was borderline putting up GOAT season numbers.

[Doctor MJ]

Not any more. Also plays in the east.

Interesting. Who would you say has displaced him?

You could argue Leonard and durant are better. Its not like this is 2011 lebron who was borderline putting up GOAT season numbers.

I don't think anyone thinks that Kawhi can carry his team like we saw LeBron do during major swaths of the past two playoffs in Cleveland.

Meanwhile Durant is the central concern when we talk about the Warriors' primary weakness: clutch performance. To be honest my top 5 right now probably wouldn't include him.

[michaelm]

Interesting. Who would you say has displaced him?

You could argue Leonard and durant are better. Its not like this is 2011 lebron who was borderline putting up GOAT season numbers.

I don't think anyone thinks that Kawhi can carry his team like we saw LeBron do during major swaths of the past two playoffs in Cleveland.

Meanwhile Durant is the central concern when we talk about the Warriors' primary weakness: clutch performance. To be honest my top 5 right now probably wouldn't include him.

I don't think anyone who supports GSW cares who gets the MVP award this year, and I don't think the GSW players do either.

Very happy for LeBron to be called (still) the best player in the world after he won the title last year. It can be looked at again after this season's play-offs.