It's been 5 yrs. Can we now say Andrew Wiggins is a Bust?

[skones]

Wiggins has been around a 20ppg scorer for his career. You are naming several guys that do not come close to him. Wiggins has his flaws but some of this is ridiculous.

Wiggins-19.5ppg-4.2rpg career

Ebiid-Yes
Gordon-Maybe
Smart-Maybe
Randle-Depends on the year
Vonleh-5ppg career
Saric-Probably not
Lavine-Has same flaws and lower PPG career
Nurkic-Probably
Harris-Possibly
Capela-Yes
Bogdanovic-Lower pts-Lower rebounds
SlowMo-Dud offensively
Joe Harris-9PPG career
Dinwiddie-10ppg career
Jokic-Yes

Exum-6 ppg career
Payton-11 ppg career
Warren-Probably not
Ennis-4ppg career
Huetis-2.5ppg career
Grant-8ppg career

PPG is not a very efficient way to rank players, especially when the player in question has one of the worst TS% in the entire league and would undoubtedly be much better if he scored less. Of the 30 players from his draft class that are still in the league, Wiggins ranks 26th in PER (a metric known for overrating bulk scorers). 26th in WS, and 30th (dead last) in VORP. Wiggins is also a worse defender than the vast majority of the players on that list.

I'm not looking soley at PPG. I said that multiple guys that average less PPG were better than Wiggins but when you say that a guy that has averaged 2.5ppg for his career is better than a guy that has averaged 19.5ppg for his career I think that is noteworthy.

You're using PPG as some sort of validating metric and career ppg doesn't make argument stronger either given Noah Vonleh offers his team more this season than Wiggins has at any point in his career.

[Galloisdaman]

PPG is not a very efficient way to rank players, especially when the player in question has one of the worst TS% in the entire league and would undoubtedly be much better if he scored less. Of the 30 players from his draft class that are still in the league, Wiggins ranks 26th in PER (a metric known for overrating bulk scorers). 26th in WS, and 30th (dead last) in VORP. Wiggins is also a worse defender than the vast majority of the players on that list.

I'm not looking soley at PPG. I said that multiple guys that average less PPG were better than Wiggins but when you say that a guy that has averaged 2.5ppg for his career is better than a guy that has averaged 19.5ppg for his career I think that is noteworthy.

You're using PPG as some sort of validating metric and career ppg doesn't make argument stronger either given Noah Vonleh offers his team more this season than Wiggins has at any point in his career.

PPG is an important stat just like rebounds, assists, and shooting percentages are important stats. Just because PPG isn't an end all stat does not mean it is meaningless. Are you saying you want to judge if a guy is a bust by this season alone? I'm not bashing Noah but he is on his 4th team in around 5 years. Has he really had a better career than Wiggins?

[skones]

I'm not looking soley at PPG. I said that multiple guys that average less PPG were better than Wiggins but when you say that a guy that has averaged 2.5ppg for his career is better than a guy that has averaged 19.5ppg for his career I think that is noteworthy.

You're using PPG as some sort of validating metric and career ppg doesn't make argument stronger either given Noah Vonleh offers his team more this season than Wiggins has at any point in his career.

PPG is an important stat just like rebounds, assists, and shooting percentages are important stats. Just because PPG isn't an end all stat does not mean it is meaningless. Are you saying you want to judge if a guy is a bust by this season alone? I'm not bashing Noah but he is on his 4th team in around 5 years. Has he really had a better career than Wiggins?

Are you **** serious? Yes he has and it's not even remotely close.

PPG is not an important stat. Simply scoring X amount of points doesn't validate anyone as a player because you remove all context as to how well they actually do it. At no point in his career has Wiggins reached a league average TS%. What that means is that if someone who's scoring points, even at an average level, is making better use of his possessions than is Andrew Wiggins.

There are also other things on the court, playing within a system, playing good defense, getting guys easy buckets, and making winning plays. What makes Wiggins so ineffective is that the one thing he does (score), he doesn't do even at an average level. He doesn't offer a team anything that positively impacts wins anywhere else either.

You can put Carmelo Anthony on a bad team right now and he can go out and give that team 20 points a night, but still, nobody wants him because HE'S TERRIBLE, just like Wiggins. The ONLY reason Wiggins gets as many minutes as he does is because he's paid a **** ton of money and the only hope for moving him is that he turns it around.

[iggymcfrack]

I'm not looking soley at PPG. I said that multiple guys that average less PPG were better than Wiggins but when you say that a guy that has averaged 2.5ppg for his career is better than a guy that has averaged 19.5ppg for his career I think that is noteworthy.

You're using PPG as some sort of validating metric and career ppg doesn't make argument stronger either given Noah Vonleh offers his team more this season than Wiggins has at any point in his career.

PPG is an important stat just like rebounds, assists, and shooting percentages are important stats. Just because PPG isn't an end all stat does not mean it is meaningless. Are you saying you want to judge if a guy is a bust by this season alone? I'm not bashing Noah but he is on his 4th team in around 5 years. Has he really had a better career than Wiggins?

For someone with a TS% of .481, the lower your PPG the better. A very large percentage of the shots he takes are actively hurting his team. If he didn’t take any 2-point jumpers outside of 10 feet and saved some of that energy for defense, the Timberwolves would be a much more competitive team.

[Quentin]

Someone is really arguing that PPG is the stat that makes Wiggins good?

[SF_Warriors]

Weird to call him a bust when he is probably top 3-5 in his draft year.

LOL, no.

Embiid, Gordon, Smart, Randle, Vonleh, Saric, Lavine, Nurkic, Gary Harris, Capela, Bogdanovic, Kyle Anderson, Joe Harris, Dinwiddie, Jokic, all miles better. That’s 15 guys that are so much better it’s not even close without getting into guys like Exum, Payton, Warren, Ennis, Huestis, or Grant who are probably better too.

Wiggins has been around a 20ppg scorer for his career. You are naming several guys that do not come close to him. Wiggins has his flaws but some of this is ridiculous.

Wiggins-19.5ppg-4.2rpg career

Ebiid-Yes
Gordon-Maybe
Smart-Maybe
Randle-Depends on the year
Vonleh-5ppg career
Saric-Probably not
Lavine-Has same flaws and lower PPG career
Nurkic-Probably
Harris-Possibly
Capela-Yes
Bogdanovic-Lower pts-Lower rebounds
SlowMo-Dud offensively
Joe Harris-9PPG career
Dinwiddie-10ppg career
Jokic-Yes

Exum-6 ppg career
Payton-11 ppg career
Warren-Probably not
Ennis-4ppg career
Huetis-2.5ppg career
Grant-8ppg career

Lavine is easily a better player than wiggins. Better scorer, ball handler, passer, shooter..more efficient.
Their career PPG is basically the same, but if you actually understand actual basketball analysis (not just stats, but comparing their skillsets) and take into account the differences in efficiency for this season..


Lavine is at 23ppg on 57% TS and 51% eFG, compare that to wiggins with 18ppg, 48% TS and 44% eFG

Bogdanovic is averaging only one less PPG than wiggins this season, but is VASTLY more efficient. Bogs is definitely better than wiggins at this given moment.

Dinwiddie is averaging more points per 36, much more efficient, can actually make plays

Randle is a 20 & 9 player this season..better stats all around than wiggins. Heck, he is even averaging better 3 point and free throw percentage this season.

Also, let's talk TJ warren, who is averaging the same amount of points as wiggins this season but also on vastly better efficiency.

Inefficient volume shooter that is average on defense and has below average all around game..that is what describes wiggins.

All players above I would take over wiggins right now. They are all averaging similiar or better PPG but at much better efficiency. If you would honestly take 19ppg with below average efficiency to 17ppg with above average efficiency, you do not understand basketball,period. Bear in mind that wiggins has been below average efficiency-wise every season of his career thus far.

And don't even get me started about the contract.

[Lauri_Legend]

Who knew the Cavs would get the better player 5 years later

I honestly believe if Wiggins started his career playing alongside LeBron he would be a much better player than what he is today.
He was sent to a sh*thole in Minny and left to figure out everything by himself. Aside from a washed up KG, there was no else on that team to learn from.

It's either that or Lebron would evaluate his talents quickly and see he's nothing special and try to ship him off as soon as possible, like the Lakers young core. There were many superstars in play over the last few years, Lebron would've try to package a deal around Wiggins at some point

[Galloisdaman]

LOL, no.

Embiid, Gordon, Smart, Randle, Vonleh, Saric, Lavine, Nurkic, Gary Harris, Capela, Bogdanovic, Kyle Anderson, Joe Harris, Dinwiddie, Jokic, all miles better. That’s 15 guys that are so much better it’s not even close without getting into guys like Exum, Payton, Warren, Ennis, Huestis, or Grant who are probably better too.

Wiggins has been around a 20ppg scorer for his career. You are naming several guys that do not come close to him. Wiggins has his flaws but some of this is ridiculous.

Wiggins-19.5ppg-4.2rpg career

Ebiid-Yes
Gordon-Maybe
Smart-Maybe
Randle-Depends on the year
Vonleh-5ppg career
Saric-Probably not
Lavine-Has same flaws and lower PPG career
Nurkic-Probably
Harris-Possibly
Capela-Yes
Bogdanovic-Lower pts-Lower rebounds
SlowMo-Dud offensively
Joe Harris-9PPG career
Dinwiddie-10ppg career
Jokic-Yes

Exum-6 ppg career
Payton-11 ppg career
Warren-Probably not
Ennis-4ppg career
Huetis-2.5ppg career
Grant-8ppg career

Lavine is easily a better player than wiggins. Better scorer, ball handler, passer, shooter..more efficient.
Their career PPG is basically the same, but if you actually understand actual basketball analysis (not just stats, but comparing their skillsets) and take into account the differences in efficiency for this season..


Lavine is at 23ppg on 57% TS and 51% eFG, compare that to wiggins with 18ppg, 48% TS and 44% eFG

Bogdanovic is averaging only one less PPG than wiggins this season, but is VASTLY more efficient. Bogs is definitely better than wiggins at this given moment.

Dinwiddie is averaging more points per 36, much more efficient, can actually make plays

Randle is a 20 & 9 player this season..better stats all around than wiggins. Heck, he is even averaging better 3 point and free throw percentage this season.

Also, let's talk TJ warren, who is averaging the same amount of points as wiggins this season but also on vastly better efficiency.

Inefficient volume shooter that is average on defense and has below average all around game..that is what describes wiggins.

All players above I would take over wiggins right now. They are all averaging similiar or better PPG but at much better efficiency. If you would honestly take 19ppg with below average efficiency to 17ppg with above average efficiency, you do not understand basketball,period. Bear in mind that wiggins has been below average efficiency-wise every season of his career thus far.

I keep seeing folks say things like right now and this season. I don't judge guys on 1-2 seasons out of 5. I look at their careers when discussing if someone is a bust. Wiggins has plenty of flaws but he would not play the minutes he does if he didn't have any pluses going for him. I get that he is having a bad year but that doesn't make guys that have 2-4 career ppg as players who had better careers.

[wutevahung]

Wiggins has been around a 20ppg scorer for his career. You are naming several guys that do not come close to him. Wiggins has his flaws but some of this is ridiculous.

Wiggins-19.5ppg-4.2rpg career

Ebiid-Yes
Gordon-Maybe
Smart-Maybe
Randle-Depends on the year
Vonleh-5ppg career
Saric-Probably not
Lavine-Has same flaws and lower PPG career
Nurkic-Probably
Harris-Possibly
Capela-Yes
Bogdanovic-Lower pts-Lower rebounds
SlowMo-Dud offensively
Joe Harris-9PPG career
Dinwiddie-10ppg career
Jokic-Yes

Exum-6 ppg career
Payton-11 ppg career
Warren-Probably not
Ennis-4ppg career
Huetis-2.5ppg career
Grant-8ppg career

Lavine is easily a better player than wiggins. Better scorer, ball handler, passer, shooter..more efficient.
Their career PPG is basically the same, but if you actually understand actual basketball analysis (not just stats, but comparing their skillsets) and take into account the differences in efficiency for this season..


Lavine is at 23ppg on 57% TS and 51% eFG, compare that to wiggins with 18ppg, 48% TS and 44% eFG

Bogdanovic is averaging only one less PPG than wiggins this season, but is VASTLY more efficient. Bogs is definitely better than wiggins at this given moment.

Dinwiddie is averaging more points per 36, much more efficient, can actually make plays

Randle is a 20 & 9 player this season..better stats all around than wiggins. Heck, he is even averaging better 3 point and free throw percentage this season.

Also, let's talk TJ warren, who is averaging the same amount of points as wiggins this season but also on vastly better efficiency.

Inefficient volume shooter that is average on defense and has below average all around game..that is what describes wiggins.

All players above I would take over wiggins right now. They are all averaging similiar or better PPG but at much better efficiency. If you would honestly take 19ppg with below average efficiency to 17ppg with above average efficiency, you do not understand basketball,period. Bear in mind that wiggins has been below average efficiency-wise every season of his career thus far.

I keep seeing folks say things like right now and this season. I don't judge guys on 1-2 seasons out of 5. I look at their careers when discussing if someone is a bust. Wiggins has plenty of flaws but he would not play the minutes he does if he didn't have any pluses going for him. I get that he is having a bad year but that doesn't make guys that have 2-4 career ppg as players who had better careers.

the only reasons he still has minutes are because of his contract, and because of his "youth", so FO are still hoping that he can develop into a better player, not because he is impacting the games he plays in a positive way.

and in that message, you basically said "yes those players are better this year, but Wiggins had a longer career", but if you are a max player, even if the players like Dindwiddle and Vonleh are only better than you for one year, you are a giant waste of money.

[SF_Warriors]

Wiggins has been around a 20ppg scorer for his career. You are naming several guys that do not come close to him. Wiggins has his flaws but some of this is ridiculous.

Wiggins-19.5ppg-4.2rpg career

Ebiid-Yes
Gordon-Maybe
Smart-Maybe
Randle-Depends on the year
Vonleh-5ppg career
Saric-Probably not
Lavine-Has same flaws and lower PPG career
Nurkic-Probably
Harris-Possibly
Capela-Yes
Bogdanovic-Lower pts-Lower rebounds
SlowMo-Dud offensively
Joe Harris-9PPG career
Dinwiddie-10ppg career
Jokic-Yes

Exum-6 ppg career
Payton-11 ppg career
Warren-Probably not
Ennis-4ppg career
Huetis-2.5ppg career
Grant-8ppg career

Lavine is easily a better player than wiggins. Better scorer, ball handler, passer, shooter..more efficient.
Their career PPG is basically the same, but if you actually understand actual basketball analysis (not just stats, but comparing their skillsets) and take into account the differences in efficiency for this season..


Lavine is at 23ppg on 57% TS and 51% eFG, compare that to wiggins with 18ppg, 48% TS and 44% eFG

Bogdanovic is averaging only one less PPG than wiggins this season, but is VASTLY more efficient. Bogs is definitely better than wiggins at this given moment.

Dinwiddie is averaging more points per 36, much more efficient, can actually make plays

Randle is a 20 & 9 player this season..better stats all around than wiggins. Heck, he is even averaging better 3 point and free throw percentage this season.

Also, let's talk TJ warren, who is averaging the same amount of points as wiggins this season but also on vastly better efficiency.

Inefficient volume shooter that is average on defense and has below average all around game..that is what describes wiggins.

All players above I would take over wiggins right now. They are all averaging similiar or better PPG but at much better efficiency. If you would honestly take 19ppg with below average efficiency to 17ppg with above average efficiency, you do not understand basketball,period. Bear in mind that wiggins has been below average efficiency-wise every season of his career thus far.

I keep seeing folks say things like right now and this season. I don't judge guys on 1-2 seasons out of 5. I look at their careers when discussing if someone is a bust. Wiggins has plenty of flaws but he would not play the minutes he does if he didn't have any pluses going for him. I get that he is having a bad year but that doesn't make guys that have 2-4 career ppg as players who had better careers.

They all have been in the nba for less than five years. Why on earth would you compare their careers thus far and use it to determine who is the better player now? Those stats are clearly skewed for guys developing during their rookie contracts...some players take time to develop...and all of those guys I mentioned currently are better players than wiggins..

Fat of the matter is, wiggins was given a green light from the beginning and yet guys who had less of an opportunity have surpassed him.

Let me ask you a question..
Victor oladipo has a 17.5 ppg career. Is he a worse player than wiggins and has he had a worse career thus far? Both answers are no. You gotta think more logically than that

Capela is a 11.7ppg career player, but you had no qualms about admitting he is a better player?

[iggymcfrack]

Wiggins has been around a 20ppg scorer for his career. You are naming several guys that do not come close to him. Wiggins has his flaws but some of this is ridiculous.

Wiggins-19.5ppg-4.2rpg career

Ebiid-Yes
Gordon-Maybe
Smart-Maybe
Randle-Depends on the year
Vonleh-5ppg career
Saric-Probably not
Lavine-Has same flaws and lower PPG career
Nurkic-Probably
Harris-Possibly
Capela-Yes
Bogdanovic-Lower pts-Lower rebounds
SlowMo-Dud offensively
Joe Harris-9PPG career
Dinwiddie-10ppg career
Jokic-Yes

Exum-6 ppg career
Payton-11 ppg career
Warren-Probably not
Ennis-4ppg career
Huetis-2.5ppg career
Grant-8ppg career

Lavine is easily a better player than wiggins. Better scorer, ball handler, passer, shooter..more efficient.
Their career PPG is basically the same, but if you actually understand actual basketball analysis (not just stats, but comparing their skillsets) and take into account the differences in efficiency for this season..


Lavine is at 23ppg on 57% TS and 51% eFG, compare that to wiggins with 18ppg, 48% TS and 44% eFG

Bogdanovic is averaging only one less PPG than wiggins this season, but is VASTLY more efficient. Bogs is definitely better than wiggins at this given moment.

Dinwiddie is averaging more points per 36, much more efficient, can actually make plays

Randle is a 20 & 9 player this season..better stats all around than wiggins. Heck, he is even averaging better 3 point and free throw percentage this season.

Also, let's talk TJ warren, who is averaging the same amount of points as wiggins this season but also on vastly better efficiency.

Inefficient volume shooter that is average on defense and has below average all around game..that is what describes wiggins.

All players above I would take over wiggins right now. They are all averaging similiar or better PPG but at much better efficiency. If you would honestly take 19ppg with below average efficiency to 17ppg with above average efficiency, you do not understand basketball,period. Bear in mind that wiggins has been below average efficiency-wise every season of his career thus far.

I keep seeing folks say things like right now and this season. I don't judge guys on 1-2 seasons out of 5. I look at their careers when discussing if someone is a bust. Wiggins has plenty of flaws but he would not play the minutes he does if he didn't have any pluses going for him. I get that he is having a bad year but that doesn't make guys that have 2-4 career ppg as players who had better careers.

He’s 2 for 2 on having really bad years since he signed that big contract. If anything, the fact that he’s declined from his age 19-21 season to his age 22-23 seasons is a massive red flag that he’s unlikely to undergo the natural positive development you’d expect of a player his age. I might actually like his chances better if he’d started out worse.

[bondom34]

Wiggins has been around a 20ppg scorer for his career. You are naming several guys that do not come close to him. Wiggins has his flaws but some of this is ridiculous.

Wiggins-19.5ppg-4.2rpg career

Ebiid-Yes
Gordon-Maybe
Smart-Maybe
Randle-Depends on the year
Vonleh-5ppg career
Saric-Probably not
Lavine-Has same flaws and lower PPG career
Nurkic-Probably
Harris-Possibly
Capela-Yes
Bogdanovic-Lower pts-Lower rebounds
SlowMo-Dud offensively
Joe Harris-9PPG career
Dinwiddie-10ppg career
Jokic-Yes

Exum-6 ppg career
Payton-11 ppg career
Warren-Probably not
Ennis-4ppg career
Huetis-2.5ppg career
Grant-8ppg career

Lavine is easily a better player than wiggins. Better scorer, ball handler, passer, shooter..more efficient.
Their career PPG is basically the same, but if you actually understand actual basketball analysis (not just stats, but comparing their skillsets) and take into account the differences in efficiency for this season..


Lavine is at 23ppg on 57% TS and 51% eFG, compare that to wiggins with 18ppg, 48% TS and 44% eFG

Bogdanovic is averaging only one less PPG than wiggins this season, but is VASTLY more efficient. Bogs is definitely better than wiggins at this given moment.

Dinwiddie is averaging more points per 36, much more efficient, can actually make plays

Randle is a 20 & 9 player this season..better stats all around than wiggins. Heck, he is even averaging better 3 point and free throw percentage this season.

Also, let's talk TJ warren, who is averaging the same amount of points as wiggins this season but also on vastly better efficiency.

Inefficient volume shooter that is average on defense and has below average all around game..that is what describes wiggins.

All players above I would take over wiggins right now. They are all averaging similiar or better PPG but at much better efficiency. If you would honestly take 19ppg with below average efficiency to 17ppg with above average efficiency, you do not understand basketball,period. Bear in mind that wiggins has been below average efficiency-wise every season of his career thus far.

I keep seeing folks say things like right now and this season. I don't judge guys on 1-2 seasons out of 5. I look at their careers when discussing if someone is a bust. Wiggins has plenty of flaws but he would not play the minutes he does if he didn't have any pluses going for him. I get that he is having a bad year but that doesn't make guys that have 2-4 career ppg as players who had better careers.

His plus's right now are Covingon is injured, Deng is old and Diop is a rookie. Their 3 roster SGs are a rookie and two players on two way contracts. He literally has nobody to replace him.

I'm always confused when I check this thread daily and see 5 new pages that people don't agree he's a bust. He's bad, has been bad for 5 years and hasn't really improved.

For all players to average 20 ppg in a season he has 2 of the bottom 11 seasons in BPM.

http://bkref.com/tiny/Lqf2M

At his current over 17 ppg he's 16th worst (13th really as the bottom 3 barely played or got hurt.

http://bkref.com/tiny/6ZGGT

He's a bad defender who's got a questionable at best motor, not a good rebounder for his position and posting a barely positive assist:TO ratio. A career best RPM remains negative and honestly I question his RAPM numbers due to time with KAT on court (MIN is about neutral with KAT on the bench and Wiggins playing, a +2.9 with both, and +5.3 with only KAT ). He's also around 315th in the NBA in PIPM.

Unrelated but Lavine is bad as well. I see people bring him up, but Lavine being about as bad doesn't mean anything to Wiggins.

[Jables]

Not a bust just yet, Embiid even with the injury was clearly number 1 but it was going to be traded anyway.

So much of how we evaluate Wiggins has to do with his contract, but he's still just 23. Look at what Hayward was doing at 23, he was around the same besides his passing, I remember Jazz fans saying he wasn't dedicated and like League more than basketball. Then a few years later he lifted and it became the cool thing to rate him as a star.

[shi-woo]

Wiggins is literally Ricky Davis and is going to have a similar career too.

Sent from my D6708 using RealGM mobile app

[fa2011]

I’m more curious on the grade y’all give Lebron for making one of his larger trades while he was the GM of the Cavs?

[Lalouie]

there are more wigginses than bennetts

wiggins is just "not what we thought"

[Lalouie]

I’m more curious on the grade y’all give Leabron for making one of his larger trades while he was the GM of the Cavs?

who mean the love trade? he must be patting himself on the back,,,,,,as he often does

[CodeBreaker]

Not really a bust, but I would call him overhyped, overpaid, underwhelming, disappointing

[HeartBreakKid]

Not a bust just yet, Embiid even with the injury was clearly number 1 but it was going to be traded anyway.

So much of how we evaluate Wiggins has to do with his contract, but he's still just 23. Look at what Hayward was doing at 23, he was around the same besides his passing, I remember Jazz fans saying he wasn't dedicated and like League more than basketball. Then a few years later he lifted and it became the cool thing to rate him as a star.

Gordon Hayward was not that highly rated as a prospect compared to Wiggins and he was still a lot better than Wiggins at the same age.

Gordon Hayward didn't just have passing (which you can't just brush off, it's a major advantage in Hayward's favor), he was a positive defender while Wiggins is a negative one - and Wiggins only specialty which is scoring, Gordon Hayward was actually better at it than Wiggins. (and Hayward wasn't even a good scorer yet, which is saying something).

At the end it took Gordan Hayward until the age of 27 to make an all-star team, but he was better than Wiggins was at 23 and more importantly had (slowly) improved every year he was in the league. Wiggins is pretty much just as bad as he was his first year in the NBA, he has stagnated (actually gotten worse if anything).

[GlennQuagmire]