Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title

[ReddoverKobe]

If you compare the teams lebron faced in the finals vs Jordan its laughable. Jordan played some god awful teams in that third threepeat. Seattle was like 6 deep. As of Utah, half the roster could not make an NBA team in todays game. Just brutal.

How many of those teams bron faced were better than the 86 & 87 celtics? Hell, How many of those teams were unquestionably better than the 95 & 96 magic?

13,14 spurs are for sure better then the magic. 3 of the warriors teams are for sure better. You can debate the other 4.

The 16-17 warriors are better then that Celtics team.

[JoeyLightYears]

How many of those teams bron faced were better than the 86 & 87 celtics?

Maybe MJ should have done better than the #8 seed so he could have avoided the #1 Celtics. Cool to see the regular season means something.

Jordan missed most of the season with a broken leg.

And the roster was a dumpster fire for 2-3 years. Probably worse than Lebron's early Cavs team.

The most laughable thing is that '86 Bulls team even made the playoffs. They won 30 games!

[TheGOATRises007]

Maybe MJ should have done better than the #8 seed so he could have avoided the #1 Celtics. Cool to see the regular season means something.

Jordan missed most of the season with a broken leg.

And the roster was a dumpster fire for 2-3 years. Probably worse than Lebron's early Cavs team.

The most laughable thing is that '86 Bulls team even made the playoffs. They won 30 games!

True. Such was the NBA back then.

[SF_Warriors]

If you compare the teams lebron faced in the finals vs Jordan its laughable. Jordan played some god awful teams in that third threepeat. Seattle was like 6 deep. As of Utah, half the roster could not make an NBA team in todays game. Just brutal.

How many of those teams bron faced were better than the 86 & 87 celtics? Hell, How many of those teams were unquestionably better than the 95 & 96 magic?

13,14 spurs are for sure better then the magic. 3 of the warriors teams are for sure better. You can debate the other 4.

The 16-17 warriors are better then that Celtics team.

Point is, MJ faced some pretty strong teams in his own right. Only two teams bron faced were arguably better than the best comp MJ faced.

I don't think its a gimme that those spurs teams and KD-less warriors would have beat the Magic either. Prime Duncan spurs were losing consistently to the prime shaq/young kobe lakers. I think young shaq/young penny would give old TD/Manu problems.

[JoeyLightYears]

How many of those teams bron faced were better than the 86 & 87 celtics? Hell, How many of those teams were unquestionably better than the 95 & 96 magic?

13,14 spurs are for sure better then the magic. 3 of the warriors teams are for sure better. You can debate the other 4.

The 16-17 warriors are better then that Celtics team.

Point is, MJ faced some pretty strong teams in his own right. Only two teams bron faced were arguably better than the best comp MJ faced.

And yet people making these same arguments won't actually count the Celtics losses against MJ because they were in the first round, while counting the GSW losses against LeBron because they were in the Finals. How many times do we have to see this stupid 6/6 record parroted, as if the earlier rounds mean nothing? That's the problem I have with these MJ fans who probably weren't even watching basketball when he played-- the guy was phenomenal, maybe the greatest ever, but it's not like he didn't ever lose.

[SF_Warriors]

13,14 spurs are for sure better then the magic. 3 of the warriors teams are for sure better. You can debate the other 4.

The 16-17 warriors are better then that Celtics team.

Point is, MJ faced some pretty strong teams in his own right. Only two teams bron faced were arguably better than the best comp MJ faced.

And yet people making these same arguments won't actually count the Celtics losses against MJ because they were in the first round, while counting the GSW losses against LeBron because they were in the Finals. How many times do we have to see this stupid 6/6 record parroted, as if the earlier rounds mean nothing? That's the problem I have with these MJ fans who probably weren't even watching basketball when he played-- the guy was phenomenal, maybe the greatest ever, but it's not like he didn't ever lose.

Nobody with a brain would count bron losses against the KD warriors or even warriors in 15. But if people are including tough competition for bron in the Finals, they need to include the 86 & 87 celts for MJ

[imDatknicksTape]

ppl always talk about scottie pippen, but he wasnt nearly the player bosh,wade,kyrie,love was in terms of skill. Scottie pippen is overrated af and only talked about because he was with MJ, the championship teams were unbeatable because of MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN. Cant say the same about LBJ. Even if Lakers win it all, i think MJ and Kareem are better players than him. LBJ is third all time b-ball player behind them

[JoeyLightYears]

Nobody with a brain would count bron losses against the KD warriors or even warriors in 15. But if people are including tough competition for bron in the Finals, they need to include the 86 & 87 celts for MJ

There must be a lot of brainless people on this forum then because I see LeBron's Finals record of 3-6 used against him all the time, as if he would be a better player if he were 3-0! You are absolutely correct, though.

[JoeyLightYears]

ppl always talk about scottie pippen, but he wasnt nearly the player bosh,wade,kyrie,love was in terms of skill. Scottie pippen is overrated af and only talked about because he was with MJ, the championship teams were unbeatable because of MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN. Cant say the same about LBJ. Even if Lakers win it all, i think MJ and Kareem are better players than him. LBJ is third all time b-ball player behind them

This is absolutely wrong. The Bulls were dominant because of 1) Jordan and 2) their pitbull defense. Pippen anchored that defense and is arguably the best wing defender ever. It's a crime he never won DPOY.

[Kilroy]

The Goat tier is MJ and Kareem... That's it... LeBron is somewhere below with Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kobe, etc... Who's on the top of that list is probably subjective, but to me, LeBron, with his cherry picking Teams etc, isn't getting to the top of the mountain... Now, if he 3peats with the Lakers... I'll put him at the peak...

[SF_Warriors]

Nobody with a brain would count bron losses against the KD warriors or even warriors in 15. But if people are including tough competition for bron in the Finals, they need to include the 86 & 87 celts for MJ

There must be a lot of brainless people on this forum then because I see LeBron's Finals record of 3-6 used against him all the time, as if he would be a better player if he were 3-0! You are absolutely correct, though.

I personally wouldnt hold it against a player for losing to a superior team, especially one on the spectrum of the 2017 warriors, or when his second and third options were injured like in 2015. I do, however, fault players for losing finals series that they had chances to win, like the 2011 mavs and 2014 spurs. If there is any credence to Bron's finals records being used against him, it is those series and not the ones against the warriors.

[Myth]

18 pages in so I'm sure this has been said, but as great as LeBron's longevity is, it isn't the only basis for GOAT. Sure it can be part of the equation, but don't pretend that is the only factor. Otherwise Bill Russell would be seen as below countless players because he "only dominated for 13 years."

An alternative argument (that also likely has been made is): LeBron has played all these years and still only has half the championships as Jordan. Also fewer major awards in general. See? Longevity can be used against somebody as well.

[LesGrossman]

Let me ask the older guys a simple question to end the MJ vs. Bron debate for good. OK, its a trick question.

Which stat stood out for you the most when thinking about MJ?

[ReddoverKobe]

How many of those teams bron faced were better than the 86 & 87 celtics? Hell, How many of those teams were unquestionably better than the 95 & 96 magic?

13,14 spurs are for sure better then the magic. 3 of the warriors teams are for sure better. You can debate the other 4.

The 16-17 warriors are better then that Celtics team.

Point is, MJ faced some pretty strong teams in his own right. Only two teams bron faced were arguably better than the best comp MJ faced.

I don't think its a gimme that those spurs teams and KD-less warriors would have beat the Magic either. Prime Duncan spurs were losing consistently to the prime shaq lakers. I think young shaq would give old TD/Manu problems.

Here is the thing, Jordan has a really strange career, and people group a lot of it together. So he goes seven years without a title in a really stacked era. He then wins three titles in a very good era against some very good teams. I will never bad mouth those first three titles.

Then he quits for a year and a half and comes back to a league that is really watered down. Your talking pre Euro push, high school players coming out in 1995 like KG and NBA expansion. This all created a top heavy league for a few years in which if you had two all star level players you were winning a lot of games. I think Seattle won 64 games in 96 for example? Now igo look at the 6th, 7th and 8th man on a lot of those teams and its a joke. 96 magic were a 6 man team, with donald royal, jon konkac and anthony bowie as a bench.

[ReddoverKobe]

The Goat tier is MJ and Kareem... That's it... LeBron is somewhere below with Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kobe, etc... Who's on the top of that list is probably subjective, but to me, LeBron, with his cherry picking Teams etc, isn't getting to the top of the mountain... Now, if he 3peats with the Lakers... I'll put him at the peak...

Some people also think the earth is flat.

[Kilroy]

Let me ask the older guys a simple question to end the MJ vs. Bron debate for good. OK, its a trick question.

Which stat stood out for you the most when thinking about MJ?

No stat... Dude was just an absolute killer and made amazing plays look ordinary... He was the scoring version of Magic's passing...

You can say magic had a lot of assists, but it wasn't the quantity, it was the quality and the style...

MJ didn't want to win games, he wanted to destroy opponents... Like Bird, if he needed to score, he'd score on anyone or everyone, if you needed a stop, he could stop anyone on the court... He was just the ultimate winner... Not the ultimate stat sheet...

It's ironic because guys make a ton of noise about LeBron's stats, while they completely blow off a guy like Wilt's other-worldly stats... They'll talk about his assists and passing, while completely discounting Magic's obviously far superior passing skills... I think to put LeBron on the peak, you need a lot of funny math, which has become commonplace these days.

[Kilroy]

The Goat tier is MJ and Kareem... That's it... LeBron is somewhere below with Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kobe, etc... Who's on the top of that list is probably subjective, but to me, LeBron, with his cherry picking Teams etc, isn't getting to the top of the mountain... Now, if he 3peats with the Lakers... I'll put him at the peak...

Some people also think the earth is flat.

Yeah, but I won't hold it against you...

[SF_Warriors]

13,14 spurs are for sure better then the magic. 3 of the warriors teams are for sure better. You can debate the other 4.

The 16-17 warriors are better then that Celtics team.

Point is, MJ faced some pretty strong teams in his own right. Only two teams bron faced were arguably better than the best comp MJ faced.

I don't think its a gimme that those spurs teams and KD-less warriors would have beat the Magic either. Prime Duncan spurs were losing consistently to the prime shaq lakers. I think young shaq would give old TD/Manu problems.

Here is the thing, Jordan has a really strange career, and people group a lot of it together. So he goes seven years without a title in a really stacked era. He then wins three titles in a very good era against some very good teams. I will never bad mouth those first three titles.

Then he quits for a year and a half and comes back to a league that is really watered down. Your talking pre Euro push, high school players coming out in 1995 like KG and NBA expansion. This all created a top heavy league for a few years in which if you had two all star level players you were winning a lot of games. I think Seattle won 64 games in 96 for example? Now igo look at the 6th, 7th and 8th man on a lot of those teams and its a joke. 96 magic were a 6 man team, with donald royal, jon konkac and anthony bowie as a bench.

Depth is nice, but in the playoffs teams can get by with better top end talent. I'm not gonna say the 96 magic could beat the 14 spurs, I'm just saying that those spurs were not definitively better. I would take 23 year old shaq and 24 yr old penny, plus a prime horace grant over what the 14 spurs had.

[twyzted]

Let me ask the older guys a simple question to end the MJ vs. Bron debate for good. OK, its a trick question.

Which stat stood out for you the most when thinking about MJ?

No stat for me who are very good just you knew he would win. His footwork, craftiness, etc i think Wade explains it better then i can.

Read on Twitter

[JoeyLightYears]

Let me ask the older guys a simple question to end the MJ vs. Bron debate for good. OK, its a trick question.

Which stat stood out for you the most when thinking about MJ?

No stat... Dude was just an absolute killer and made amazing plays look ordinary... He was the scoring version of Magic's passing...

You can say magic had a lot of assists, but it wasn't the quantity, it was the quality and the style...

MJ didn't want to win games, he wanted to destroy opponents... Like Bird, if he needed to score, he'd score on anyone or everyone, if you needed a stop, he could stop anyone on the court... He was just the ultimate winner... Not the ultimate stat sheet...

It's ironic because guys make a ton of noise about LeBron's stats, while they completely blow off a guy like Wilt's other-worldly stats... They'll talk about his assists and passing, while completely discounting Magic's obviously far superior passing skills... I think to put LeBron on the peak, you need a lot of funny math, which has become commonplace these days.

You can make the same argument you made for MJ for Dominique Wilkins. No one remembers 'Nique because he never had the benefit of good teammates. There are lots of guys throughout the annals of the NBA history that were similar. Barry, Gervin, King, and so forth. You can't will a team to victory if your teammates suck.

You don't need funny math to make LeBron look like a GOAT contender (the concept of GOAT is idiotic in the first place but let's roll with it). By the time he retires he'll likely have the all time scoring record (at one of the all-time scoring averages) while also being in the top-10 in pretty much every other important category. I think he already has all the playoff records. He has MVPs and titles. What the hell do you want? You want to use his longevity against him, as if it's easy to play almost 20 seasons as the top or one of the top guys in the NBA? It requires a tremendous commitment and there's a reason no one else outside of maybe Kareem has been able to do it. For example, people are trying to annoint Luka already as a possible GOAT because he had an amazing second year. Do we really think he's going to do this for 15 more years?