Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

[OhayoKD]

Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

Exactly.
There are a large group of Lebron fanboys and reckless supporters at PC board (Heej, houmecourtloss, Lukathegoat, OkayoKD, Myunibrodavis, aenigma, zimpy27, rk2023, frica, falocomandi, lessiskbro ect) -maybe its different accounts for 2-3 users 15years old, but they really goes berserk to exuse Lebron and make him the GOAT even if its more or less obvious that Lebron isn’t one who will suprass MJ s goodness, maybe some other player, but not him, his career nearly over.
This group of supporters investigate their own metrics, try to falsificate plus-minus metrics (some of them claimed that manually counted 500 MJ games only to prove that Lebron is better lol) to make their boy GOAT. Its really ridiculous. PC board once was great place, where Ben Taylor was there, but today it became very toxic place…

Warned for baiting.
- ccs

I think you forgot a few soldiers

[tsirigoj]

This thread alone shows why this poll is probably very biased.

Lots of people claiming to be the ones who have the right answer on this who CLEARLY are biased.

It's a dumb argument that needs to be laid to rest.

[mysticOscar]

Once we get a player that has the same individual dominance as MJ / Lebron and have the same team success / dominance as 90s Bulls then you will find the poll will be a lot closer.

I'm sure it will happen in the next 10-20 years....especially with how much easier the stats can come now these days and recency bias.

Glad to have witnessesed MJ and LeBron tho in my lifetime...two of the top GOATs imo.

Wish Lebron fans weren't so anti MJ and always using fluffy stuff to exalt him since it's insulting to common sense

Makes it hard to enjoy once in a generation type player without having to post against him

[DonaldSanders]

PC board once was great place, where Ben Taylor was there, but today it became very toxic place…

I think you're going too far naming names, and I don't think everyone on the list meets the criteria you are assigning. But, I do think you are right that the PC board has been toxic for awhile, and it hard to enjoy/post on. There are definitely a group of LeBron superfans that are toxically aggressive, and it gets tiring (and then some Jordan guys respond and eventually get toxic as well). It's fine for anyone to post LeBron GOAT takes, LeBron is obviously a great GOAT choice... just don't be toxic about it, especially when criticizing others' GOAT picks. I used to lurk the PC Board a decent amount, and it was like an epic back and forth discussion about NBA history/greats with high quality non-toxic arguments. I miss those days, I learned a lot.

There are still gem posters there (and great LeBron takes/arguments) but they have become more the exception rather than the rule recently as the toxic posters have dominated discussions. I also often wonder if someone is multiple people on there.

Last, while I love geeking on basketball stats, I find that there is now a mistake of being over-reliant on stats on the PC board. Don't get me wrong, I am not a stat hater; I played poker for a living for 3 years, I run a company and my job involves using statistics to predict demand of products I sell, I love stats and use them all the time (and I'm not saying this for cred, more as explaining I'm not a creaky old stat hater). Stats help us determine a lot, but they should never be the end all in a discussion.

Because no player plays with identical teammates, identical opponents, in identical eras, or within identical rulesets, one should never rely on just impact stats to decide their lists. Folks will say they're factoring more in, but I see the discussions -- someone will supply their evaluation of why a particular player is better, and get an angry reply that explains why they are wrong that is only because of stats (which is a mis-use of stats -- and if you are one of the gems I referenced above, this isn't you).

[michaelm]

PC board once was great place, where Ben Taylor was there, but today it became very toxic place…

I think you're going too far naming names, and I don't think everyone on the list meets the criteria you are assigning. But, I do think you are right that the PC board has been toxic for awhile, and it hard to enjoy/post on. There are definitely a group of LeBron superfans that are toxically aggressive, and it gets tiring (and then some Jordan guys respond and eventually get toxic as well). It's fine for anyone to post LeBron GOAT takes, LeBron is obviously a great GOAT choice... just don't be toxic about it, especially when criticizing others' GOAT picks. I used to lurk the PC Board a decent amount, and it was like an epic back and forth discussion about NBA history/greats with high quality non-toxic arguments. I miss those days, I learned a lot.

There are still gem posters there (and great LeBron takes/arguments) but they have become more the exception rather than the rule recently as the toxic posters have dominated discussions. I also often wonder if someone is multiple people on there.

Last, while I love geeking on basketball stats, I find that there is now a mistake of being over-reliant on stats on the PC board. Don't get me wrong, I am not a stat hater; I played poker for a living for 3 years, I run a company and my job involves using statistics to predict demand of products I sell, I love stats and use them all the time (and I'm not saying this for cred, more as explaining I'm not a creaky old stat hater). Stats help us determine a lot, but they should never be the end all in a discussion.

Because no player plays with identical teammates, identical opponents, in identical eras, or within identical rulesets, one should never rely on just impact stats to decide their lists. Folks will say they're factoring more in, but I see the discussions -- someone will supply their evaluation of why a particular player is better, and get an angry reply that explains why they are wrong that is only because of stats (which is a mis-use of stats -- and if you are one of the gems I referenced above, this isn't you).

Yes the stats are supposed to enable better assessment of the contribution or lack thereof by a player to winning rather than becoming an end in themselves which surpasses actually winning basketball games.

[70sFan]

Once we get a player that has the same individual dominance as MJ / Lebron and have the same team success / dominance as 90s Bulls then you will find the poll will be a lot closer

We already have such player, but people always ignore him.

[Gregoire]

Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

Exactly.
There are a large group of Lebron fanboys and reckless supporters at PC board (Heej, houmecourtloss, Lukathegoat, OkayoKD, Myunibrodavis, aenigma, zimpy27, rk2023, frica, falocomandi, lessiskbro ect) -maybe its different accounts for 2-3 users 15years old, but they really goes berserk to exuse Lebron and make him the GOAT even if its more or less obvious that Lebron isn’t one who will suprass MJ s goodness, maybe some other player, but not him, his career nearly over.
This group of supporters investigate their own metrics, try to falsificate plus-minus metrics (some of them claimed that manually counted 500 MJ games only to prove that Lebron is better lol) to make their boy GOAT. Its really ridiculous. PC board once was great place, where Ben Taylor was there, but today it became very toxic place…

Warned for baiting.
- ccs

I think you forgot a few soldiers

Yea, youre right, the army is huuuuuge. Ive only designate most active ones.

[Gregoire]

Once we get a player that has the same individual dominance as MJ / Lebron and have the same team success / dominance as 90s Bulls then you will find the poll will be a lot closer

We already have such player, but people always ignore him.

who?

[70sFan]

Once we get a player that has the same individual dominance as MJ / Lebron and have the same team success / dominance as 90s Bulls then you will find the poll will be a lot closer

We already have such player, but people always ignore him.

who?

Bill Russell

[OhayoKD]

We already have such player, but people always ignore him.

who?

Bill Russell

for the curious. Retiree player-coach Russell beat two of the best teams of his era to secure a championship with 35-40 win help(MJ needed more just to make the cf)

Something something points per game

[Gregoire]

We already have such player, but people always ignore him.

who?

Bill Russell

and what about Mikan?

[70sFan]

who?

Bill Russell

and what about Mikan?

Yeah, that's another one.

[michaelm]

Once we get a player that has the same individual dominance as MJ / Lebron and have the same team success / dominance as 90s Bulls then you will find the poll will be a lot closer

We already have such player, but people always ignore him.

Not me.

[mysticOscar]

We already have such player, but people always ignore him.

who?

Bill Russell

I have no issue with ppl saying Russell as GOAT.

I don't see many Russell is GOAT team coming up with fluffy reasons why he should be GOAT. And he has a solid case.

The couple of issues why I don't have him in my top 3 is, he was well before my time and era. The league was just so different back then.

Also not enough footage or resources to really evaluate and get a proper sense how dominant individually compared to his peers.

Tbh I hear more about Wilt hype in that era compared to Russell...so its hard to make that call.

So I generally don't include any Wilt, Russell or any players in that era in my GOAT rankings.

[michaelm]

who?

Bill Russell

for the curious. Retiree player-coach Russell beat two of the best teams of his era to secure a championship with 35-40 win help(MJ needed more just to make the cf)

Something something points per game

Not at all curious to see you return to your anti-MJ thing.

There has been similar criticism on these very pages of Bill on the grounds that he played with many hall of famers. Leaving aside that the hall of fame was in its infancy then and I am sure no one considered it going for another 60 years (although they were correct an 11 title dynasty was out of the ordinary), the question is whether Bill Russell won all those titles because he was surrounded by hall of fame players or whether those players became hall of fame players because they played with BIll Russell. I tend towards the latter, although the guys concerned were obviously capable of being the players they were or became. I see something similar with Jordan once he decided or was convinced team play was necessary, although while unlike 70s fan I couldn’t watch Bill Russell in his era he is my all time favourite player.

[OdomFan]

We already have such player, but people always ignore him.

who?

Bill Russell

I don't think people ignore Russell, they're aware that he's one of the greatest of all time. Heck, it was hard to ignore him because before he sadly passed away. He was almost always there year after year at just about every nba legendary moment, championship celebration, all star game, etc. With that being said, as good as he was for his Celtics in his time, I just don't see him as the greatest Center of all time let alone greatest basketball player. His 11 championships are great, but I'll take the 6 Jordan absolutely led his team to over that.

Plus Jordan was just the overall better player if you ask me. Russell is one of the greatest defensive anchors of all time, but with MJ you got elite work on both ends. Not to say Russell was a liability offensively, but he wasn't very elite in comparison either.

[70sFan]

who?

Bill Russell

I don't think people ignore Russell, they're aware that he's one of the greatest of all time. Heck, it was hard to ignore him because before he sadly passed away. He was almost always there year after year at just about every nba legendary moment, championship celebration, all star game, etc. With that being said, as good as he was for his Celtics in his time, I just don't see him as the greatest Center of all time let alone greatest basketball player. His 11 championships are great, but I'll take the 6 Jordan absolutely led his team to over that.

Plus Jordan was just the overall better player if you ask me. Russell is one of the greatest defensive anchors of all time, but with MJ you got elite work on both ends. Not to say Russell was a liability offensively, but he wasn't very elite in comparison either.

Russell led his team to all of his rings, which are double of Jordan's in quantity - even if you want to make a case that on average it was harder to win it all in 1990s (which is a reasonable, but questionable take).

I don't really think you can say that Jordan was a better player simply because he was a good defender. Russell was a more impactful defensive player than Jordan, significantly more. Prime Jordan was a good defender of course, great one for his position but his defense doesn't change the whole picture. Bulls were fine without Jordan defensively, while Celtics collapsed without Russell on defense.

It's fair to say that you prefer Jordan, but Russell has more team success and at least comparable individual dominance, so we don't really need to wait for someone matching Jordan in both aspects.

[70sFan]

Bill Russell

for the curious. Retiree player-coach Russell beat two of the best teams of his era to secure a championship with 35-40 win help(MJ needed more just to make the cf)

Something something points per game

Not at all curious to see you return to your anti-MJ thing.

There has been similar criticism on these very pages of Bill on the grounds that he played with many hall of famers. Leaving aside that the hall of fame was in its infancy then and I am sure no one considered it going for another 60 years (although they were correct an 11 title dynasty was out of the ordinary), the question is whether Bill Russell won all those titles because he was surrounded by hall of fame players or whether those players became hall of fame players because they played with BIll Russell. I tend towards the latter, although the guys concerned were obviously capable of being the players they were or became. I see something similar with Jordan once he decided or was convinced team play was necessary, although while unlike 70s fan I couldn’t watch Bill Russell in his era he is my all time favourite player.

I didn't watch Bill Russell life either, I am way too young for that.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

Exactly.
There are a large group of Lebron fanboys and reckless supporters at PC board (Heej, houmecourtloss, Lukathegoat, OkayoKD, Myunibrodavis, aenigma, zimpy27, rk2023, frica, falocomandi, lessiskbro ect) -maybe its different accounts for 2-3 users 15years old, but they really goes berserk to exuse Lebron and make him the GOAT even if its more or less obvious that Lebron isn’t one who will suprass MJ s goodness, maybe some other player, but not him, his career nearly over.
This group of supporters investigate their own metrics, try to falsificate plus-minus metrics (some of them claimed that manually counted 500 MJ games only to prove that Lebron is better lol) to make their boy GOAT. Its really ridiculous. PC board once was great place, where Ben Taylor was there, but today it became very toxic place…

Warned for baiting.
- ccs

We don’t interact, I heard you used to be chill and suddenly turned into a troll recently so that’s probably not gonna change. calling a bunch of people out randomly is pretty stupid lmfao, esp if you don’t want to engage there outside of just seeming angry for no reason lol


Help is relative to who you go against and the totality of your team anyway, so this is a stupid argument, but general board isn’t really where to discuss this stuff anyway lol. Don’t really think I’ve ever hated on MJ before either.

[OhayoKD]

Bill Russell

I don't think people ignore Russell, they're aware that he's one of the greatest of all time. Heck, it was hard to ignore him because before he sadly passed away. He was almost always there year after year at just about every nba legendary moment, championship celebration, all star game, etc. With that being said, as good as he was for his Celtics in his time, I just don't see him as the greatest Center of all time let alone greatest basketball player. His 11 championships are great, but I'll take the 6 Jordan absolutely led his team to over that.

Plus Jordan was just the overall better player if you ask me. Russell is one of the greatest defensive anchors of all time, but with MJ you got elite work on both ends. Not to say Russell was a liability offensively, but he wasn't very elite in comparison either.

Russell led his team to all of his rings, which are double of Jordan's in quantity - even if you want to make a case that on average it was harder to win it all in 1990s (which is a reasonable, but questionable take).

I don't really think you can say that Jordan was a better player simply because he was a good defender. Russell was a more impactful defensive player than Jordan, significantly more. Prime Jordan was a good defender of course, great one for his position but his defense doesn't change the whole picture. Bulls were fine without Jordan defensively, while Celtics collapsed without Russell on defense.

It's fair to say that you prefer Jordan, but Russell has more team success and at least comparable individual dominance, so we don't really need to wait for someone matching Jordan in both aspects.

I mean. What we currently have suggests Russell's individual dominance outclasses, no?