Is Kobe given the most flack of any star? Highlighting inconsistent arguments against him.

[flytimes11]

Losing in the 1st round > losing in the Finals

If LeBron had lost in the 1st round every year he lost in the Finals and Kobe made it to the Finals and lost in 05, 06, and 07, LeBron would be the undisputed GOAT and Kobe wouldn't even crack the top 75.

LBJ only made the Finals that many years in a row bc his comp was weak. Wild how he’s given credit for the run, but you completely leave out a major reason why.

When you talk about Kobe, however, everything is on display.

Why aren’t you being consistent?

This what I was highlighting in my initial post when the mods was saying I had a straw man. They spend all this time on here and want to act oblivious. It’s honestly sad.

[DOT]

I’m not being argumentative but your commentary is sarcastic and inconsistent

I'm being perfectly consistent

Kobe not making the playoffs and losing in the first round is a plus on his resume, LeBron making the Finals and losing is a negative. If Kobe had made the Finals in 2005 with that squad and lost, he would have gotten legacy points deducted just like LeBron making the Finals in 2007 and losing was disastrous for his legacy

It's pretty simple, the worst thing you can do is lose in the Finals, anything other than that is good

Like I said, we're in agreement, I dunno what your problem is.

[MoneyMo]

When was Kobe underserving of making the all star team? Which seasons?

Coaches voted on NBA all defense through 2013-14.

You’re not making any sense

Kobe shouldn't have been an all-star in: 13-14, 14-15, 15-16 and arguably 97-98. He was voted in by the fans that year while averaging 15ppg on 42.8%

I see you didn’t even touch the all defense portion. Interesting.

In 97-98, Kobe clearly had the talent to make the game, just look at how he played. It was Kobe v MJ for MVP until George Karl benched him the entire 4th.

Since I’m sure you probably have Tim Duncan ranked higher than Kobe all time, I don’t think you’ll want to bring up that he has just as many, if not more underserving all star game appearances than Kobe. 10-11, 12-13, 14-15.

Be consistent.

97-98 he played good in the all-star game and definitely had the talent, but it's questionable that he should have made it. He was a popular player playing for the Lakers so he was voted in. His numbers leading up to it were not special but he helped keep the Lakers afloat while Shaq was out so yeah, I can see why he made it.

I see you didn't discuss the other years I mentioned? I guess they are not defensible at all

As for defensive. Kobe could lock you up one on one when he was committed but with his offensive load being so large, he couldn't give his all on defensive which is understandable. He got some of his last all-defensive teams by reputation.

As for Duncan, here are his teams records for the years you brought up. 61-21, 58-24, 55-27. He also played in a minimum of 69 games for those years.

Kobe's team records were for his final 3 seasons were 27-55, 21-61, 17-65. This is while his play was awful when he actually suited up (missed a ton of time).

He was NOT an all-star by any stretch of the imagination

[flytimes11]

I’m not being argumentative but your commentary is sarcastic and inconsistent

I'm being perfectly consistent

Kobe not making the playoffs and losing in the first round is a plus on his resume, LeBron making the Finals and losing is a negative. If Kobe had made the Finals in 2005 with that squad and lost, he would have gotten legacy points deducted just like LeBron making the Finals in 2007 and losing was disastrous for his legacy

It's pretty simple, the worst thing you can do is lose in the Finals, anything other than that is good

Like I said, we're in agreement, I dunno what your problem is.

I never hear anybody mention 2007 as far as Lebron, even if you take it away he still has a losing finals record so what exactly are you saying? He already highlighted how he beat lower seeded teams. Cavs wouldn’t have beaten Phoenix in 06 or 07 either. That Detroit team he beat in 07 won 50 games, Kobe used to have to beat 50 win teams in the first round.

[flytimes11]

Kobe shouldn't have been an all-star in: 13-14, 14-15, 15-16 and arguably 97-98. He was voted in by the fans that year while averaging 15ppg on 42.8%

I see you didn’t even touch the all defense portion. Interesting.

In 97-98, Kobe clearly had the talent to make the game, just look at how he played. It was Kobe v MJ for MVP until George Karl benched him the entire 4th.

Since I’m sure you probably have Tim Duncan ranked higher than Kobe all time, I don’t think you’ll want to bring up that he has just as many, if not more underserving all star game appearances than Kobe. 10-11, 12-13, 14-15.

Be consistent.

97-98 he played good in the all-star game and definitely had the talent, but it's questionable that he should have made it. He was a popular player playing for the Lakers so he was voted in. His numbers leading up to it were not special but he helped keep the Lakers afloat while Shaq was out so yeah, I can see why he made it.

I see you didn't discuss the other years I mentioned? I guess they are not defensible at all

As for defensive. Kobe could lock you up one on one when he was committed but with his offensive load being so large, he couldn't give his all on defensive which is understandable. He got some of his last all-defensive teams by reputation.

As for Duncan, here are his teams records for the years you brought up. 61-21, 58-24, 55-27. He also played in a minimum of 69 games for those years.

Kobe's team records were for his final 3 seasons were 27-55, 21-61, 17-65. This is while his play was awful when he actually suited up (missed a ton of time).

He was NOT an all-star by any stretch of the imagination

Duncan never played with rookies and second year players late in his career like Kobe did. Highlighting team record is kinda irrelevant. Also you say it as if Kobe didn’t have a lot of injuries by that point, you are trying to just make it seem like he fell off from one year to the next. Lebron didn’t make the playoffs with Lonzo and Ingram and they were definitely better than what Kobe was working with.

[canada_dry]

I think kobe gets passes other players dont get and his resume is "beefed up" with more undeserved all star selections and all nba selections than anyone i can think of.

I dont think he gets the above mentioned passes in real gm though, they find a way to underrate him here somehow.

I got kobe in my top 10 though. Back end. Not top 3 or top 5, like a lot of stans do using flawed logic. Not outside the top 10 and in some cases top 15 like a lot of people in real gm do. I think its a fair ranking.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

When was Kobe underserving of making the all star team? Which seasons?

Coaches voted on NBA all defense through 2013-14.

You’re not making any sense

1998 when he was a bench player averaging 15 ppg. Not an all star season. Lets be real. Fan voted.

2014 2015 and 2016. After the achilles when he was no longer close to an all star level player. Some of those years he barely played. The ones he did he was arvuably the worst starter in the NBA. Fans voted him in.

Thats 4. Who else has 4 that beefed the resume up for him to be able to say hes a 18x all star?

Id like to hear it.

Also the coaches voting doesn't disprove the fact that he got a few selections based off name recognition and reputation. His own coach phil Jackson has said the same. Theres no way he was making it over d wade some of those years for example. Look at any defensive metric you want to compare the two. He stopped guarding the opposites teams best player to conserve energy for offense (as he should at that age) and was still being voted in.

So yea. There's that too.

Btw i appreciate you being able to understand that i meant all defense and not all nba in that statement.

Edit: also, tim Duncan was making ALL NBA those years you mentioned....alll the way up until 2015. Thats above all star if you didnt know. Your argument for Duncan not deserving all star selections is limp, and flaccid....at best.

Its not all about points per game.

2nd edit: i also see you didnt bring the Duncan argument up and i mixed you up with another poster. Apologies for that.

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[MoneyMo]

I see you didn’t even touch the all defense portion. Interesting.

In 97-98, Kobe clearly had the talent to make the game, just look at how he played. It was Kobe v MJ for MVP until George Karl benched him the entire 4th.

Since I’m sure you probably have Tim Duncan ranked higher than Kobe all time, I don’t think you’ll want to bring up that he has just as many, if not more underserving all star game appearances than Kobe. 10-11, 12-13, 14-15.

Be consistent.

97-98 he played good in the all-star game and definitely had the talent, but it's questionable that he should have made it. He was a popular player playing for the Lakers so he was voted in. His numbers leading up to it were not special but he helped keep the Lakers afloat while Shaq was out so yeah, I can see why he made it.

I see you didn't discuss the other years I mentioned? I guess they are not defensible at all

As for defensive. Kobe could lock you up one on one when he was committed but with his offensive load being so large, he couldn't give his all on defensive which is understandable. He got some of his last all-defensive teams by reputation.

As for Duncan, here are his teams records for the years you brought up. 61-21, 58-24, 55-27. He also played in a minimum of 69 games for those years.

Kobe's team records were for his final 3 seasons were 27-55, 21-61, 17-65. This is while his play was awful when he actually suited up (missed a ton of time).

He was NOT an all-star by any stretch of the imagination

Duncan never played with rookies and second year players late in his career like Kobe did. Highlighting team record is kinda irrelevant. Also you say it as if Kobe didn’t have a lot of injuries by that point, you are trying to just make it seem like he fell off from one year to the next. Lebron didn’t make the playoffs with Lonzo and Ingram and they were definitely better than what Kobe was working with.

My whole point is Kobe was not an all-star those years. Any way you try and look at it, his play didn't warrant it. You can at least make an argument for Duncan cause he was still contributing to winning and was an all-defense team player those years. Kobe was a big negative on the other hand.

As for you dragging Lebron into this, injuries clearly ruined that team.

When all 3 of Lebron, Ball, and Ingram were in the lineup together the Lakers record was 15-8.

[canada_dry]

97-98 he played good in the all-star game and definitely had the talent, but it's questionable that he should have made it. He was a popular player playing for the Lakers so he was voted in. His numbers leading up to it were not special but he helped keep the Lakers afloat while Shaq was out so yeah, I can see why he made it.

I see you didn't discuss the other years I mentioned? I guess they are not defensible at all

As for defensive. Kobe could lock you up one on one when he was committed but with his offensive load being so large, he couldn't give his all on defensive which is understandable. He got some of his last all-defensive teams by reputation.

As for Duncan, here are his teams records for the years you brought up. 61-21, 58-24, 55-27. He also played in a minimum of 69 games for those years.

Kobe's team records were for his final 3 seasons were 27-55, 21-61, 17-65. This is while his play was awful when he actually suited up (missed a ton of time).

He was NOT an all-star by any stretch of the imagination

Duncan never played with rookies and second year players late in his career like Kobe did. Highlighting team record is kinda irrelevant. Also you say it as if Kobe didn’t have a lot of injuries by that point, you are trying to just make it seem like he fell off from one year to the next. Lebron didn’t make the playoffs with Lonzo and Ingram and they were definitely better than what Kobe was working with.

My whole point is Kobe was not an all-star those years. Any way you try and look at it, his play didn't warrant it. You can at least make an argument for Duncan cause he was still contributing to winning and was an all-defense team player those years. Kobe was a big negative on the other hand.

As for you dragging Lebron into this, injuries clearly ruined that team.

When all 3 of Lebron, Ball, and Ingram were in the lineup together the Lakers record was 15-8.

Theres no argument that needs to be made for duncan those years...

Not only was duncan clearly deserving of his spots, he was making all nba selections those years up until 2015 which was his second last year. Thats a level above all star. Completely disproves anything he has to say about duncans all stat selections and being consistent.

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[One_and_Done]

I’m not being argumentative but your commentary is sarcastic and inconsistent

I'm being perfectly consistent

Kobe not making the playoffs and losing in the first round is a plus on his resume, LeBron making the Finals and losing is a negative. If Kobe had made the Finals in 2005 with that squad and lost, he would have gotten legacy points deducted just like LeBron making the Finals in 2007 and losing was disastrous for his legacy

It's pretty simple, the worst thing you can do is lose in the Finals, anything other than that is good

Like I said, we're in agreement, I dunno what your problem is.

Plus don't forget the style points Kobe gets for having had a fro. Did Lebron have a fro? I don't think so.

[Mirotic12]

He definitely seems to be on these forums.