epfou1 wrote:cupcakesnake wrote:Sane wrote:
No one is writing steals off, in fact I 100% agree with your whole theory.
All I'm saying is: if we're going to say Daniels is the outlier and his steals are actually very efficient (high steals per attempted steal) ones leading to defensive and net impact, then we have to prove that. It's never been proven, if you're going to take away salary from other players who can make more money from DPOY, you have to prove that's happening.
I've been clear: we don't KNOW if that's happening. I'm not saying it's not happening. I'm not saying it can't happen or steals have zero value. I'm just saying - as has always been the case - if he's to be up for DPOY someone has to actually sit down and manually do the math of is he the most efficient stealer ever or is his team losing just as much on these gambles as it's gaining? Is the team defense gaining or losing on this bet?
I've also already stated he's an elite perimeter defender, no disagreement there. That's not sufficient to win a DPOY. To be DPOY you have to impact the whole team's defense. I want Dyson to be the guy who shattered the glass ceiling on this.
All the big man DPOY candidates are nailing the exact metrics that show impact on team's defense. They don't get the benefit of taking 3-4 supplementary stats (deflections, etc) and pasting them together and forming a guess about whether it impacts the whole team's defense directly. No, they actually do what a DPOY does, it's clear as day and they have to pass that test. I want a similar test for wings, but more suited to their skills.
I don't mind opening that up to wings and this is a perfect opportunity but people are taking it so personally instead of looking at it as (1) an unknown right now and (2) an opportunity to compile the actual data and forever wings will have an opportunity to be in the DPOY conversation.
Till then, you and me know for a fact that JJJ improves almost any team's defense. We do not actually know that about Daniels. That's not unfair to say.
Ok, I don't think we have much disagreement overall. I was reacting to the steals comments, but in the bigger picture we're pretty aligned.
I don't think a POA defender will ever be an anchor, for reasons I've stated, and is vulnerable to weak impact numbers on a bad defensive team, where the opponent can choose to simply avoid him to attack weaker points of the defense. Unlike a mobile long big, Dyson is guarding one spot on the floor rather than being seemingly everywhere.
POA defenders are more ceiling than floor raisers in that sense. Add a ballhawk to a solid backline, and you can boost defensive pressure and playmaking and put that defense over the top. Without the backline, and you end up this fairly random source of pressure, floating out there in the nothingness. It's trouble to be near Dyson with the ball in your hands, but they can't scheme to keep Dyson near the ball so his impact can't be consistent. He's disruptive off the ball, but he's not quite Alex Caruso with his help defense. Caruso might be the only guy like this we've seen anchor a defense.
I could see someone like Dyson making a strong DPOY bid if he was the feature defender on a defense that had a solid but unspectacular backline. Suggs is sort of in that situation. No one is giving Goga and WCJ DPOY votes, but they hold it down enough for Suggs's aggressiveness to not have consequences.
Sometimes when people push to give DPOY to a ballhawking guard, it feels like giving the NHL Vezina trophy (best goaltender) to a defensemen. It's really hard to equal the value of the guy who's main job is stopping layups and drives after breakdowns. Though we're in an era with some fantastic guard defenders bring serious help defense.
I feel like rim protectors gets way too much credit for being defensively good. It is an easier position to play. They are in the paint / under the ring 90% of the time, where the likes of Daniels picks up his opponent at half court. Has to fight through screens. Has constantly be on the move to the wing, follows his opponent that flashes to the basket and back to the top of the key. He is working harder than the big man rim protector, and still dominates the deflections and steals compared to the next player on the list.
I don't care if the Hawks aren't good defensively. Its an individual award and he should get recognize in the final voting for the all time season he is having.
If it's so easy, why doesn't Dyson go play that rim protector role and get all the easy credit?
Also, you're not watching if you think modern bigs hang out in the paint 90% of the time. Primary rim protector is an insanely hard position. The entire offense is trying to solve the puzzle that is you. You have to nail multiple pick & roll coverages while being responsible for correcting your teammates mistakes while elite athletes are trying to dunk on you. Whenever you mess up, the other teams scores.
No one is denying that ball pressure and screen navigation are tough jobs. We can debate what job is hardest, but that's not the point. The award isn't for hardest job, it's for best defender. The defender who has the biggest impact on winning basketball games.
Every position in modern defense has to rotate like crazy these days. No position is exempt. Teams try to keep their big in the paint but offenses are too good.
. Held Garland to 13 points in an OT game yesterday too. Garland pretty much gave the ball up every time he had Camara on him 
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