How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[hardenASG13]

Because I'm not a mind reader and we saw back to back playoff runs in 2021 and especially 2022 where Jokic was punished on the defensive side of the ball to a meme like degree while Giannis was still in a DPOY tier. Even casuals were talking about how Jokic was being hunted in 2022. I actually think Murray and MPJ not being there is making people overlook just how much the Warriors strategy seemed to be put Jokic into actions every play.


It looks like I just put way more weight on the defensive side of the ball than you so I legit don't see how anyone could rank Jokic over Giannis in those year. Like the chasm that exists between the two especially as bigs isn't being respected at all.

It's certainly weird. Giannis won the title in 2021. He was coming off back to back MVPs but didn't win MVP that year due to games played and voter fatigue, as he underwhelmed the previous 2 playoffs when he won MVP (he loses everytime he plays good teams in the playoffs, just like Jokic. Wouldve lost to Brooklyn in 21 too had Irving stayed healthy).

Yet Jokic fans here say Jokic was the best player definitively in 2021, because he won MVP! He goes on to win MVP the following year too, as a 6 seed. It's was a very similar situation in 2022 as Westbrooks MVP (6 seed, no help, loses first round). But westbrooks MVP gets slammed, while Jokics is celebrated as the best player in the league that year.His teams lost badly in the second and first rounds respectively both those MVP years. Embiid wins MVP in 23, averaging 8 more points, 1 less rebound and 5 less assists (because of Denvers commitment of running everything through Jokic, which fails anytime they play a good team in the playoffs)while playing much better defense than Jokic....but Jokic wins the title. Therefore, he was the best player and should've won MVP, according to Jokic fans (no, he and Denver caught amazing breaks and didn't play anyone, but whatever). But to Jokic fans, he won the title so should've won MVP that year, too. But.....it's the same scenario as 21 Giannis, yet Jokic fans say Jokic was the best player in 2021 because of MVP (But Giannis won the title! it's just like 23). And that Jokic was the best player in 23 (but Embiid won the MVP) because he won the title. There's a double standard.

So by that logic, Jokic wasn't the best player in 2021. Or if he was, he wasn't the best player in 23, because he didn't win MVP. He also wasn't the best player last year, that was SGA (scoring title, 68 wins, champion, MVP, finals MVP). I don't see how people definitively say he was the best player each of the last 5 years. There's alot of mental gymnastics and reading too much into advanced stats to get there.

I'll definitely say I've never in my life seen a dude win back to back MVPs, one of those MVPs he won DPOY in the same season, and then the next season in 2021 he wins the FMVP averaging 35/13/5 66 TS% while retaining dominance on the defensive side of the ball.

Yet we're crowning the dude that went 25/13/6 53 TS% and was swept by the same team while he got barbecued on the defensive side of the ball. This is crazy to me. There's zero argument for Jokic over Giannis in 2021 imo. I don't see it at all.

Right? Giannis beat those mighty Suns, who swept MVP Jokic that same year. I know Murray was out, but swept?! Giannis was coming off a pretty scary injury, too

[dhsilv2]

Because I'm not a mind reader and we saw back to back playoff runs in 2021 and especially 2022 where Jokic was punished on the defensive side of the ball to a meme like degree while Giannis was still in a DPOY tier. Even casuals were talking about how Jokic was being hunted in 2022. I actually think Murray and MPJ not being there is making people overlook just how much the Warriors strategy seemed to be put Jokic into actions every play.


It looks like I just put way more weight on the defensive side of the ball than you so I legit don't see how anyone could rank Jokic over Giannis in those year. Like the chasm that exists between the two especially as bigs isn't being respected at all.

I don't see offense and defense as two different thing. Case and point turnovers on offense, result in bad defensive results. Missed shots create better offense for the other team. They aren't things you can actually separate.

With that said, I would argue I value defense more than nearly anyone. The problem here is you're seeing gap that I don't see. Jokic is a perfectly playable defensive player and while Giannis is a great defender, I don't consider him DPOY level either.

What was missing in Giannis's game in 21 and 22 on the defensive side of the ball that wasn't there in 20? Or did you not think Giannis was at that tier when he won DPOY?


Why do you believe he was not on that tier if that is the case?

A lot of it was just effort. Giannis wasn't putting in the same effort after 2020. I generally didn't think Giannis was the DPOY when he won it but I don't really mind it either. I think a big part of the Buck's defense was Lopez who often gets overlooked.

I would also note while defense is extremely important. In today's game the absolute elite of the elite offensive players can have about 50% more impact offensively than the absolute best defenders. This only really matters for the top 5 or so offensive guys mind you. If you compared the 20th best offensive guy to 20th best defender their value on each side might be pretty equal. And we have reasonably good stats on this from RAPM. You can always disagree with some aspects of RAPM and as I already covered, offense and defense aren't truly separate things. Great offense makes defense easier to play. Just like great defense will create turnovers and fast break opportunities. And there's no way any stat can really get that all correct. It's one reason I think Jokic is overrated by RAPM defensively, but I'd conversely say it underrates his offense.

Now if we went back to 2003 with Duncan...whole other story. Back then the top defenders really did have equal impact. But this is just the elite offensive guys.

[TK Smart]

It's certainly weird. Giannis won the title in 2021. He was coming off back to back MVPs but didn't win MVP that year due to games played and voter fatigue, as he underwhelmed the previous 2 playoffs when he won MVP (he loses everytime he plays good teams in the playoffs, just like Jokic. Wouldve lost to Brooklyn in 21 too had Irving stayed healthy).

Yet Jokic fans here say Jokic was the best player definitively in 2021, because he won MVP! He goes on to win MVP the following year too, as a 6 seed. It's was a very similar situation in 2022 as Westbrooks MVP (6 seed, no help, loses first round). But westbrooks MVP gets slammed, while Jokics is celebrated as the best player in the league that year.His teams lost badly in the second and first rounds respectively both those MVP years. Embiid wins MVP in 23, averaging 8 more points, 1 less rebound and 5 less assists (because of Denvers commitment of running everything through Jokic, which fails anytime they play a good team in the playoffs)while playing much better defense than Jokic....but Jokic wins the title. Therefore, he was the best player and should've won MVP, according to Jokic fans (no, he and Denver caught amazing breaks and didn't play anyone, but whatever). But to Jokic fans, he won the title so should've won MVP that year, too. But.....it's the same scenario as 21 Giannis, yet Jokic fans say Jokic was the best player in 2021 because of MVP (But Giannis won the title! it's just like 23). And that Jokic was the best player in 23 (but Embiid won the MVP) because he won the title. There's a double standard.

So by that logic, Jokic wasn't the best player in 2021. Or if he was, he wasn't the best player in 23, because he didn't win MVP. He also wasn't the best player last year, that was SGA (scoring title, 68 wins, champion, MVP, finals MVP). I don't see how people definitively say he was the best player each of the last 5 years. There's alot of mental gymnastics and reading too much into advanced stats to get there.

I'll definitely say I've never in my life seen a dude win back to back MVPs, one of those MVPs he won DPOY in the same season, and then the next season in 2021 he wins the FMVP averaging 35/13/5 66 TS% while retaining dominance on the defensive side of the ball.

Yet we're crowning the dude that went 25/13/6 53 TS% and was swept by the same team while he got barbecued on the defensive side of the ball. This is crazy to me. There's zero argument for Jokic over Giannis in 2021 imo. I don't see it at all.

Right? Giannis beat those mighty Suns, who swept MVP Jokic that same year. I know Murray was out, but swept?! Giannis was coming off a pretty scary injury, too

Giannis had 50/14 5 blocks 64% TS in the close out game 6 of an NBA finals game against the team that swept Jokic. I don't know what these dudes are talking about with this Jokic > Giannis in 2021 foolishness. No other time in NBA history is that not a stamp that this was my season. These dudes going full contrarian with that take.

[Infinite Llamas]

I'll definitely say I've never in my life seen a dude win back to back MVPs, one of those MVPs he won DPOY in the same season, and then the next season in 2021 he wins the FMVP averaging 35/13/5 66 TS% while retaining dominance on the defensive side of the ball.

Yet we're crowning the dude that went 25/13/6 53 TS% and was swept by the same team while he got barbecued on the defensive side of the ball. This is crazy to me. There's zero argument for Jokic over Giannis in 2021 imo. I don't see it at all.

Right? Giannis beat those mighty Suns, who swept MVP Jokic that same year. I know Murray was out, but swept?! Giannis was coming off a pretty scary injury, too

Giannis had 50/14 5 blocks 64% TS in the close out game 6 of an NBA finals game against the team that swept Jokic. I don't know what these dudes are talking about with this Jokic > Giannis in 2021 foolishness. No other time in NBA history is that not a stamp that this was my season. These dudes going full contrarian with that take.

Rivers/BartonMonte Morris/Gordon

How many games is Giannis winning with that roster because Jokic took them to the playoffs.

You really think Joker gets swept if he has Middleton/Jrue/Lopez and Portis playing alongside him??

[TK Smart]

Right? Giannis beat those mighty Suns, who swept MVP Jokic that same year. I know Murray was out, but swept?! Giannis was coming off a pretty scary injury, too

Giannis had 50/14 5 blocks 64% TS in the close out game 6 of an NBA finals game against the team that swept Jokic. I don't know what these dudes are talking about with this Jokic > Giannis in 2021 foolishness. No other time in NBA history is that not a stamp that this was my season. These dudes going full contrarian with that take.

Rivers/BartonMonte Morris/Gordon

How many games is Giannis winning with that roster because Jokic took them to the playoffs.

You really think Joker gets swept if he has Middleton/Jrue/Lopez and Portis playing alongside him??

If Giannis is still playing at the 35/13/5 66 TS% while retaining dominance on the defensive side of the ball level that he was playing at as opposed to the 25/13/6 53 TS% defensive sieve level Jokic was playing at he's definitely pushing it to 6. If he's coming out and having a 50/14/5 64 TS% game they're winning that game. Zero doubt in my mind whatsoever that team is getting into a defensive rock fight and winning one or two with Giannis just putting his shoulder down and handling these guys.

[hardenASG13]

Giannis had 50/14 5 blocks 64% TS in the close out game 6 of an NBA finals game against the team that swept Jokic. I don't know what these dudes are talking about with this Jokic > Giannis in 2021 foolishness. No other time in NBA history is that not a stamp that this was my season. These dudes going full contrarian with that take.

Rivers/BartonMonte Morris/Gordon

How many games is Giannis winning with that roster because Jokic took them to the playoffs.

You really think Joker gets swept if he has Middleton/Jrue/Lopez and Portis playing alongside him??

If Giannis is still playing at the 35/13/5 66 TS% while retaining dominance on the defensive side of the ball level that he was playing at as opposed to the 25/13/6 53 TS% level Jokic was playing at he's definitely pushing it to 6. If he's coming out and having a 50/14/5 64 TS% game they're winning that game. Zero doubt in my mind whatsoever that team is getting into a defensive rock fight and winning one or two with Giannis just putting his shoulder down and handling these guys.

They also had Michael Porter that year. Morris and Barton had good games in game 3 and 4 vs Phoenix, too. It didn't matter, they couldn't stop phoenix. And of course Jokic got ejected in game 4 out of frustration, because when he's frustrated and knows his team is going to lose, he gets dirty and gives up. The game before, at home in game 3, he had teammates score 21, 15 and 14 points. That's not enough help and similar to what Giannis had that year or ever?

[Expoking]

I'll definitely say I've never in my life seen a dude win back to back MVPs, one of those MVPs he won DPOY in the same season, and then the next season in 2021 he wins the FMVP averaging 35/13/5 66 TS% while retaining dominance on the defensive side of the ball.

Yet we're crowning the dude that went 25/13/6 53 TS% and was swept by the same team while he got barbecued on the defensive side of the ball. This is crazy to me. There's zero argument for Jokic over Giannis in 2021 imo. I don't see it at all.

Right? Giannis beat those mighty Suns, who swept MVP Jokic that same year. I know Murray was out, but swept?! Giannis was coming off a pretty scary injury, too

Giannis had 50/14 5 blocks 64% TS in the close out game 6 of an NBA finals game against the team that swept Jokic. I don't know what these dudes are talking about with this Jokic > Giannis in 2021 foolishness. No other time in NBA history is that not a stamp that this was my season. These dudes going full contrarian with that take.

The 2021 playoffs was ridiculous for injuries. People say the bubble playoffs were asterisked but the real 'fake' playoffs were the 2021 season. Kyrie, Harden, LeBron, Embiid, Giannis, AD, Kawhi, CP3, Jaylen Brown, Murray, Trae, D Mitch all got injured before or during the playoffs (mainly during). The insanely short 72 day off season no doubt played a big part in this, each of the 4 teams that progressed the furthest in the 2020 playoffs didn't make it past the second round; Miami, LA, Boston all got eliminated in the first round.
It's truly unfortunate that either Giannis or his key teammates have had injuries in almost every post season since then. Can't really blame him for asking out at this point looking at how Milwaukee are setup for the future.

That being said Jokic has been equal to or better than Giannis since the 2020 Playoffs. He was clearly better than Giannis in both the 2020 Playoffs and the 2021 regular season, the 2021 playoffs are the only exception to this, since then Jokic has probably been better in every regular season and playoffs.

[TK Smart]

Rivers/BartonMonte Morris/Gordon

How many games is Giannis winning with that roster because Jokic took them to the playoffs.

You really think Joker gets swept if he has Middleton/Jrue/Lopez and Portis playing alongside him??

If Giannis is still playing at the 35/13/5 66 TS% while retaining dominance on the defensive side of the ball level that he was playing at as opposed to the 25/13/6 53 TS% level Jokic was playing at he's definitely pushing it to 6. If he's coming out and having a 50/14/5 64 TS% game they're winning that game. Zero doubt in my mind whatsoever that team is getting into a defensive rock fight and winning one or two with Giannis just putting his shoulder down and handling these guys.

They also had Michael Porter that year. Morris and Barton had good games in game 3 and 4 vs Phoenix, too. It didn't matter, they couldn't stop phoenix. And of course Jokic got ejected in game 4 out of frustration, because when he's frustrated and knows his team is going to lose, he gets dirty and gives up.

Yep. You do not have the dimension of just turning a game into a rock fight where I'm bigger and stronger than you I win takes place when you have a person that is supposed to be occupying the role of a rim protector that people can just pull out, get into an action and get around whenever they want.


That snake move for Chris Paul that entire series was always on the table because he knows I can pick on Jokic in space whenever I want. There is no wins against a team like that if you have someone they can pick on, are offensively underpowered and the dude you're picking on but rely on to deliver elite offense to make up for this is scoring with subpar by any standard efficiency. How is that team gonna get any consecutive stops or build any momentum when I have Chris Paul on the other side smelling blood knowing he has money in the bank any time his team needs something?

[TK Smart]

Right? Giannis beat those mighty Suns, who swept MVP Jokic that same year. I know Murray was out, but swept?! Giannis was coming off a pretty scary injury, too

Giannis had 50/14 5 blocks 64% TS in the close out game 6 of an NBA finals game against the team that swept Jokic. I don't know what these dudes are talking about with this Jokic > Giannis in 2021 foolishness. No other time in NBA history is that not a stamp that this was my season. These dudes going full contrarian with that take.

The 2021 playoffs was ridiculous for injuries. People say the bubble playoffs were asterisked but the real 'fake' playoffs were the 2021 season. Kyrie, Harden, LeBron, Embiid, Giannis, AD, Kawhi, CP3, Jaylen Brown, Murray, Trae, D Mitch all got injured before or during the playoffs (mainly during). The insanely short 72 day off season no doubt played a big part in this, each of the 4 teams that progressed the furthest in the 2020 playoffs didn't make it past the second round; Miami, LA, Boston all got eliminated in the first round.
It's truly unfortunate that either Giannis or his key teammates have had injuries in almost every post season since then. Can't really blame him for asking out at this point looking at how Milwaukee are setup for the future.

That being said Jokic has been equal to or better than Giannis since the 2020 Playoffs. He was clearly better than Giannis in both the 2020 Playoffs and the 2021 regular season, the 2021 playoffs are the only exception to this, since then Jokic has probably been better in every regular season and playoffs.

Do you not remember the 2022 playoffs? The Warriors took the exact playbook that the Suns used and again, spammed actions with Jokic in it and lit up the scoreboards. I get that Jokic didn't have Murray or MPJ in the roster so I'm understanding out producing the Warriors offensive production was not on the table. But y'all want to use the fact that Jokic didn't have Murray or MPJ to completely absolve the fact that he was being hunted and it produced insane efficiency numbers for the Warriors team. And don't forget, Steph was hurt and coming off the bench. The games were that sweet for the Warriors. They treated the Nuggets like target practice/warmups because of who they had in the middle.

[Infinite Llamas]

Rivers/BartonMonte Morris/Gordon

How many games is Giannis winning with that roster because Jokic took them to the playoffs.

You really think Joker gets swept if he has Middleton/Jrue/Lopez and Portis playing alongside him??

If Giannis is still playing at the 35/13/5 66 TS% while retaining dominance on the defensive side of the ball level that he was playing at as opposed to the 25/13/6 53 TS% level Jokic was playing at he's definitely pushing it to 6. If he's coming out and having a 50/14/5 64 TS% game they're winning that game. Zero doubt in my mind whatsoever that team is getting into a defensive rock fight and winning one or two with Giannis just putting his shoulder down and handling these guys.

They also had Michael Porter that year. Morris and Barton had good games in game 3 and 4 vs Phoenix, too. It didn't matter, they couldn't stop phoenix. And of course Jokic got ejected in game 4 out of frustration, because when he's frustrated and knows his team is going to lose, he gets dirty and gives up. The game before, at home in game 3, he had teammates score 21, 15 and 14 points. That's not enough help and similar to what Giannis had that year or ever?

Jokic won a playoff series with Campazzo and Rivers as his starting backcourt. Even if they have a random good game, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s still freakin’ Campazzo and freakin’ Rivers. There is a gulf between that backcourt and Jrue/Middleton. Those two single-handedly won the Hawks series in the last two games when Giannis was out.

[hardenASG13]

If Giannis is still playing at the 35/13/5 66 TS% while retaining dominance on the defensive side of the ball level that he was playing at as opposed to the 25/13/6 53 TS% level Jokic was playing at he's definitely pushing it to 6. If he's coming out and having a 50/14/5 64 TS% game they're winning that game. Zero doubt in my mind whatsoever that team is getting into a defensive rock fight and winning one or two with Giannis just putting his shoulder down and handling these guys.

They also had Michael Porter that year. Morris and Barton had good games in game 3 and 4 vs Phoenix, too. It didn't matter, they couldn't stop phoenix. And of course Jokic got ejected in game 4 out of frustration, because when he's frustrated and knows his team is going to lose, he gets dirty and gives up. The game before, at home in game 3, he had teammates score 21, 15 and 14 points. That's not enough help and similar to what Giannis had that year or ever?

Jokic won a playoff series with Campazzo and Rivers as his starting backcourt. Even if they have a random good game, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s still freakin’ Campazzo and freakin’ Rivers. There is a gulf between that backcourt and Jrue/Middleton. Those two single-handedly won the Hawks series in the last two games when Giannis was out.

Wow, a whole playoff series that in the Frontcount is was Jokic/Gordon/Porter vs Nurkic/Roco/Powell. Morris was a very solid guard for the nuggets that series, too. Denver was then swept by Phoenix. It's shows that Blazers team they beat wasn't very good, just like every iteration of the Dame/CJ blazers. It's not some incredible accomplishment to have beaten Portland with a significant front court advantage, and the best player off the bench in the series in Morris.

[Expoking]

They also had Michael Porter that year. Morris and Barton had good games in game 3 and 4 vs Phoenix, too. It didn't matter, they couldn't stop phoenix. And of course Jokic got ejected in game 4 out of frustration, because when he's frustrated and knows his team is going to lose, he gets dirty and gives up. The game before, at home in game 3, he had teammates score 21, 15 and 14 points. That's not enough help and similar to what Giannis had that year or ever?

Jokic won a playoff series with Campazzo and Rivers as his starting backcourt. Even if they have a random good game, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s still freakin’ Campazzo and freakin’ Rivers. There is a gulf between that backcourt and Jrue/Middleton. Those two single-handedly won the Hawks series in the last two games when Giannis was out.

Wow, a whole playoff series that in the Frontcount is was Jokic/Gordon/Porter vs Nurkic/Roco/Powell. Morris was a very solid guard for the nuggets that series, too. Denver was then swept by Phoenix. It's shows that Blazers team they beat wasn't very good, just like every iteration of the Dame/CJ blazers. It's not some incredible accomplishment to have beaten Portland with a significant front court advantage, and the best player off the bench in the series in Morris.

Right Jokic hasn't achieved anything in his career, the ring was Mickey mouse and every playoffs series win and MVP can be explained away.

Almost every great player can scrutinised and torn down like this if one was so inclined. Your arguments are disingenuous and irrational.

[CodeBreaker]

5 straight MVPs... Jokic is top 5

[hardenASG13]

Jokic won a playoff series with Campazzo and Rivers as his starting backcourt. Even if they have a random good game, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s still freakin’ Campazzo and freakin’ Rivers. There is a gulf between that backcourt and Jrue/Middleton. Those two single-handedly won the Hawks series in the last two games when Giannis was out.

Wow, a whole playoff series that in the Frontcount is was Jokic/Gordon/Porter vs Nurkic/Roco/Powell. Morris was a very solid guard for the nuggets that series, too. Denver was then swept by Phoenix. It's shows that Blazers team they beat wasn't very good, just like every iteration of the Dame/CJ blazers. It's not some incredible accomplishment to have beaten Portland with a significant front court advantage, and the best player off the bench in the series in Morris.

Right Jokic hasn't achieved anything in his career, the ring was Mickey mouse and every playoffs series win and MVP can be explained away.

Almost every great player can scrutinised and torn down like this if one was so inclined. Your arguments are disingenuous and irrational.

Make a counter argument then. What part of what you quoted (an actual counter to the famous campazzo/rivers line) isn't true? They had a massive frontcourt advantage and the best bench player in that series. Jokic was the best player in that first round series. Does that make you happy?

The whole point is that Giannis went on to beat the same Suns team that swept Jokic and Denver. Jokic had 1 good game in the series, and it was a great game in game 3 with 32/20/10. No other games scoring more than 24 (the team needed more with those guards). No other games with more than 6 assists (6, 4, and 3)He got ejected in game 4 out of frustration. He wasnt special. Giannis vs that same team, coming back from a hyperextended knee, had games of 42 (g2), 41 (g3), 32 (g5) and 50 points (g6 clincher). He was quite special. There's a very good argument Giannis was still better than Jokic in 2021, with Jokic winning MVP due to voter fatigue (Giannis had won previous 2 MVPs and lost earlier than expected in the playoffs) and games played that year. I'm no Giannis guy, either. He loses everytime he plays good teams in the playoffs just like Jokic. I'm on record saying the top players of the last 5 years are nothing special. In the 90s there was Jordan and Shaq plus Duncan/Robinson. The 2000s had Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Curry, KD at various times through 2020. 2021-2025 has been a weak lull in top end talent. Wemby, and maybe SGA and Luka, will bring us out of that.

[Infinite Llamas]

Wow, a whole playoff series that in the Frontcount is was Jokic/Gordon/Porter vs Nurkic/Roco/Powell. Morris was a very solid guard for the nuggets that series, too. Denver was then swept by Phoenix. It's shows that Blazers team they beat wasn't very good, just like every iteration of the Dame/CJ blazers. It's not some incredible accomplishment to have beaten Portland with a significant front court advantage, and the best player off the bench in the series in Morris.

Right Jokic hasn't achieved anything in his career, the ring was Mickey mouse and every playoffs series win and MVP can be explained away.

Almost every great player can scrutinised and torn down like this if one was so inclined. Your arguments are disingenuous and irrational.

Make a counter argument then. What part of what you quoted (an actual counter to the famous campazzo/rivers line) isn't true? They had a massive frontcourt advantage and the best bench player in that series. Jokic was the best player in that first round series. Does that make you happy?

The whole point is that Giannis went on to beat the same Suns team that swept Jokic and Denver. Jokic had 1 good game in the series, and it was a great game in game 3 with 32/20/10. No other games scoring more than 24 (the team needed more with those guards). No other games with more than 6 assists (6, 4, and 3)He got ejected in game 4 out of frustration. He wasnt special. Giannis vs that same team, coming back from a hyperextended knee, had games of 42 (g2), 41 (g3), 32 (g5) and 50 points (g6 clincher). He was quite special. There's a very good argument Giannis was still better than Jokic in 2021, with Jokic winning MVP due to voter fatigue (Giannis had won previous 2 MVPs and lost earlier than expected in the playoffs) and games played that year. I'm no Giannis guy, either. He loses everytime he plays good teams in the playoffs just like Jokic. I'm on record saying the top players of the last 5 years are nothing special. In the 90s there was Jordan and Shaq plus Duncan/Robinson. The 2000s had Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Curry, KD at various times through 2020. 2021-2025 has been a weak lull in top end talent. Wemby, and maybe SGA and Luka, will bring us out of that.

Lambasting Jokic’s playoff record and simultaneously using David Robinson, a legendary playoff choker, as some sort of counterpoint is priceless. Congrats.

[Expoking]

Wow, a whole playoff series that in the Frontcount is was Jokic/Gordon/Porter vs Nurkic/Roco/Powell. Morris was a very solid guard for the nuggets that series, too. Denver was then swept by Phoenix. It's shows that Blazers team they beat wasn't very good, just like every iteration of the Dame/CJ blazers. It's not some incredible accomplishment to have beaten Portland with a significant front court advantage, and the best player off the bench in the series in Morris.

Right Jokic hasn't achieved anything in his career, the ring was Mickey mouse and every playoffs series win and MVP can be explained away.

Almost every great player can scrutinised and torn down like this if one was so inclined. Your arguments are disingenuous and irrational.

Make a counter argument then. What part of what you quoted (an actual counter to the famous campazzo/rivers line) isn't true? They had a massive frontcourt advantage and the best bench player in that series. Jokic was the best player in that first round series. Does that make you happy?

The whole point is that Giannis went on to beat the same Suns team that swept Jokic and Denver. Jokic had 1 good game in the series, and it was a great game in game 3 with 32/20/10. No other games scoring more than 24 (the team needed more with those guards). No other games with more than 6 assists (6, 4, and 3)He got ejected in game 4 out of frustration. He wasnt special. Giannis vs that same team, coming back from a hyperextended knee, had games of 42 (g2), 41 (g3), 32 (g5) and 50 points (g6 clincher). He was quite special. There's a very good argument Giannis was still better than Jokic in 2021, with Jokic winning MVP due to voter fatigue (Giannis had won previous 2 MVPs and lost earlier than expected in the playoffs) and games played that year. I'm no Giannis guy, either. He loses everytime he plays good teams in the playoffs just like Jokic. I'm on record saying the top players of the last 5 years are nothing special. In the 90s there was Jordan and Shaq plus Duncan/Robinson. The 2000s had Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Curry, KD at various times through 2020. 2021-2025 has been a weak lull in top end talent. Wemby, and maybe SGA and Luka, will bring us out of that.

The Nuggets were simply not built to have a post season run in 2021. They didn't pickup any decent POA defenders which when paired with Jokic's defensive shortcomings against a team like the Suns, was always going to end badly.

To compare Jokic and Giannis in the 2021 playoffs would be like comparing those 2 players this season. The Bucks have no chance of doing anything this season, they suck. The Nuggets will have the best roster they’ve had during the Jokic era, it’s not fair and stupid to compare them when their teams are that drastically different.

Giannis was not close to winning MVP in 2021, he came 4th. His regular season was a substantial drop off from his previous 2 MVP campaigns.

I know that you try to display objectivity by claiming you have nothing against any of the current players by repeating that line about ‘there being a lull in top end talent’, but that goes out of the window when you say maybe SGA or Luka can bring us out of that when neither of those 2 players have been close to Jokic in the past 5 years. Also you may have forgotten but I haven’t; you were probably the biggest Embiid fanboy during the MVP races between him and Jokic. There was no such comments you made during that era. Perhaps there is a lull in top end talent in the NBA today (I don’t really think this rings true), but that has nothing to do with Jokic, he’s a bona fide all time great in the middle of his prime. Even if we do acknowledge the lack of top end talent, you need to acknowledge the fact that this is most talented the NBA has ever been in terms of depth of talent and the highest level of parity we’ve seen.

[hardenASG13]

Right Jokic hasn't achieved anything in his career, the ring was Mickey mouse and every playoffs series win and MVP can be explained away.

Almost every great player can scrutinised and torn down like this if one was so inclined. Your arguments are disingenuous and irrational.

Make a counter argument then. What part of what you quoted (an actual counter to the famous campazzo/rivers line) isn't true? They had a massive frontcourt advantage and the best bench player in that series. Jokic was the best player in that first round series. Does that make you happy?

The whole point is that Giannis went on to beat the same Suns team that swept Jokic and Denver. Jokic had 1 good game in the series, and it was a great game in game 3 with 32/20/10. No other games scoring more than 24 (the team needed more with those guards). No other games with more than 6 assists (6, 4, and 3)He got ejected in game 4 out of frustration. He wasnt special. Giannis vs that same team, coming back from a hyperextended knee, had games of 42 (g2), 41 (g3), 32 (g5) and 50 points (g6 clincher). He was quite special. There's a very good argument Giannis was still better than Jokic in 2021, with Jokic winning MVP due to voter fatigue (Giannis had won previous 2 MVPs and lost earlier than expected in the playoffs) and games played that year. I'm no Giannis guy, either. He loses everytime he plays good teams in the playoffs just like Jokic. I'm on record saying the top players of the last 5 years are nothing special. In the 90s there was Jordan and Shaq plus Duncan/Robinson. The 2000s had Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Curry, KD at various times through 2020. 2021-2025 has been a weak lull in top end talent. Wemby, and maybe SGA and Luka, will bring us out of that.

The Nuggets were simply not built to have a post season run in 2021. They didn't pickup any decent POA defenders which when paired with Jokic's defensive shortcomings against a team like the Suns, was always going to end badly.

To compare Jokic and Giannis in the 2021 playoffs would be like comparing those 2 players this season. The Bucks have no chance of doing anything this season, they suck. The Nuggets will have the best roster they’ve had during the Jokic era, it’s not fair and stupid to compare them when their teams are that drastically different.

Giannis was not close to winning MVP in 2021, he came 4th. His regular season was a substantial drop off from his previous 2 MVP campaigns.

I know that you try to display objectivity by claiming you have nothing against any of the current players by repeating that line about ‘there being a lull in top end talent’, but that goes out of the window when you say maybe SGA or Luka can bring us out of that when neither of those 2 players have been close to Jokic in the past 5 years. Also you may have forgotten but I haven’t; you were probably the biggest Embiid fanboy during the MVP races between him and Jokic. There was no such comments you made during that era. Perhaps there is a lull in top end talent in the NBA today (I don’t really think this rings true), but that has nothing to do with Jokic, he’s a bona fide all time great in the middle of his prime. Even if we do acknowledge the lack of top end talent, you need to acknowledge the fact that this is most talented the NBA has ever been in terms of depth of talent and the highest level of parity we’ve seen.

I agree the Nuggets weren't built for playoff success in 2021. I'm commenting on the individual performances of the 2 against a common opponent. I don't see why Jokic was definitively the best player in 2021 just because he won MVP. It's the same as yall saying Embiid wasn't the best player in 2023, where he won MVP.

Giannis was 4th in MVP voting that year due to voter fatigue and games played. It's funny you bring up Embiid, because when he won in 23, it was the same exact scenario for Jokic (coming off 2 MVPs while underwhelming in the playoffs those years). Jokic won the title that year, too. But Jokic fans, such as yourself always claim Jokic should've won that one (despite averaging 8ppg less than Embiid and playing much worse defense as a center). But you heavily object that Jokic won his first MVP in 21 in almost identical circumstances. It's a double standard.

Yes I stood by Embiid over Jokic, mainly because of defense from 21-23. I certainly don't think there was a huge gap. Philly sucks without Embiid. Neither player has beaten good teams in the playoffs. I never said Embiid was some historical great. He wasnt/isn't. I was just shocked at how the Jokic club here thought there was a big gap in those years, and severely downplayed how good Embiid was. His playoff failures were mainly due to very clear injuries.

I say SGA because he just won a scoring title, MVP and FMVP while leading his team to 68 wins. They are very young and could win a bunch of titles with him as the superstar while winning at a high clip. That'd make him an all time great (and would be something Jokic and Giannis havent done). Luka is stretch, but I believe in the talent and he's only 26. Wemby is the best young player since Lebron, maybe ever.

I do agree this is the deepest overall talent the league has seen. Players evolve, and lower end to mid players have gotten bigger and better. I don't think the high end guys have been special though, no sustained playoff success, consistently losing vs good teams in the playoffs, glaring flaws (giannis can't shoot, Jokic doesn't defend well or take over vs good teams,Embiid had health issues and has questionable decision making vs double teams, Lukas conditioning hasnt been good enough).

The parity you describe exists because none of these top end guys from 21-25 have taken a stranglehold of the league, like all time greats before them. It's why I think this is a lull in top end talent.