Are people lower on Cooper Flagg?

[CIN-C-STAR]

Don’t know if it was Kidd or Flagg, but there was a legit change in style of play last night.

From the get go, it was ball in Flagg’s hand and run everything through him. It was just downhill from the get go.

My guess last night was his highest time with the ball in his hands. This should be how Dallas plays for the rest of the year. Flagg needs to be #1 or #2 when it comes to time per possession and 18+ FGAs.

Ya his jumper is still off. But you can see his adjustments when it comes to attacking the rim. Using his left a lot more, hitting that 12-15ft pull up. When it comes to driving, everything is getting easier for him.

I thought that what most people were complaining about. Saying the playmaking should be in someone else's hands while Flagg picks his spots.

For me, it's less having him bring the ball up the court and "be a pg", but more making a point of running secondary and delay actions that he is a central part of.
He can't just be standing in the corner not touching the ball for long stretches, which was happening when I watched them recently.
So some kind of happy medium, and not only so he can get the reps and develop, but because he's also really good in those actions since he's a 3-tool player.
So I'm glad the Mavs organization seems to have figured it out. Maybe I'll consider watching them again lol. It was not pleasant when I watched them against Miami a week or so ago.

[Duke4life831]

Don’t know if it was Kidd or Flagg, but there was a legit change in style of play last night.

From the get go, it was ball in Flagg’s hand and run everything through him. It was just downhill from the get go.

My guess last night was his highest time with the ball in his hands. This should be how Dallas plays for the rest of the year. Flagg needs to be #1 or #2 when it comes to time per possession and 18+ FGAs.

Ya his jumper is still off. But you can see his adjustments when it comes to attacking the rim. Using his left a lot more, hitting that 12-15ft pull up. When it comes to driving, everything is getting easier for him.

I thought that what most people were complaining about. Saying the playmaking should be in someone else's hands while Flagg picks his spots.

For me, it's less having him bring the ball up the court and "be a pg", but more making a point of running secondary and delay actions that he is a central part of.
He can't just be standing in the corner not touching the ball for long stretches, which was happening when I watched them recently.
So some kind of happy medium, and not only so he can get the reps and develop, but because he's also really good in those actions since he's a 3-tool player.
So I'm glad the Mavs organization seems to have figured it out. Maybe I'll consider watching them again lol. It was not pleasant when I watched them against Miami a week or so ago.

100% this. He doesnt need to be the guy that brings up the ball every possession, but he should be getting plenty of touches and involved even when he's not dribbling the ball.

Ill use Austin Reaves as an example (just saw part of that game so first name I thought of). He's not a PG, and even with LeBron back you rarely have a stretch when you say "Oh ya I forgot Reaves has been on the court for the last 5 minutes". Doesnt lead his team in Time per possession or touches, but still gets to stay involved when he's off ball and still has plenty of time on ball as well.

Now yes Reaves is the better shooter so he's kept involved in different ways than you would Flagg off the ball. But point still stands haha

[bonita_the_frog]

I like Coop bring the ball upcourt so he can run downhill and play fast whenever he wants, seems ideal considering how fast he moves for someone that size!
Plus he can make sure nobody stops him from attempting shots and that will be especially important when Kyrie returns...

[MrGoat]

The switch to Ryan Nembhard as the starting point guard recently has helped a lot. He's the only player who looks to feed Flagg, some of the others even look like they're icing him out, and that alone may get him promoted from two way guy to a full contract. Dallas is very low on young talent to surround Flagg with now so showing chemistry with Flagg is a great way to stick around and get minutes. D Lo has been coach's decision DNP the last two games and Brandon Williams is back to the bench. Nembhard is tiny so the defense collapses when he's in but if it's better for Flagg that may be the way to go for now

[FrodoBaggins]

One player Cooper was compared to was Jimmy Butler. You can see the similarities with how they use bully-ball physicality on drives, and play off two feet. Also, both are high-IQ players who can pass, move off-ball for cuts, screens, deep seals/post mismatches, & offensive rebounds. And move well off-ball on defense, getting steals and deflections in the passing lanes.

A bigger (+1.75" height, +5.5" wingspan, +5" standing reach), better shooting Jimmy Butler was one of my favorite comparisons.

Anyway, I thought it prudent to share this highlight of Butler's most recent game to show the types of plays Cooper should be getting, but isn't.

0:10 - Jimmy screens, rolls, receives a lob pass at the rim, tips it in.
1:00 - Jimmy soft screens/slips, receives a roll pass, gets to the rim, passes to a cutting teammate who scores.
1:08 - Jimmy secures the defensive rebound, throws the hit-ahead pass, fills/runs the lane in semi-transition/early offense, receives entry pass uncontested in the paint, scores.
1:18 - Jimmy backdoor cuts from the corner, receives an entry pass right under the rim, scores.
1:48 - Jimmy backdoor cuts from the corner, receives a lob pass at the rim, scores.
2:37 - Jimmy fills/runs the lane in transition, receives at the wing, drives to the rim, collapses the defense, and passes to a cutting teammate who scores.

Watch on YouTube

6 assisted off-ball plays, 4 he scored on, and 2 he drew the defense and made the correct pass to the open man who scored.

Like Butler, Flagg excels in secondary/delay actions. So far, Cooper has rarely been used as a screener, and his off-ball movement has been used sparingly. The obvious lack of quality playmaking, terrible spacing, and bloated/overcrowded frontcourt are to blame. Coaching, too, I guess.

I think this is important to acknowledge. Most people evaluate performance based on the box score, without bothering to even contextualize the numbers. Cooper has been assisted on only 31.8% of his made 2PT FGs. For comparison, Butler is at 47.5% right now, with a 44.1% career average.

NBA.com's expected 2PT% lets us contextualize shooting percentages by accounting for shot quality:

Butler: 58.9% expected 2PT%; 54.6% actual 2PT% (-4.3%)
Flagg: 52.9% expected 2PT%; 53.9% actual 2PT% (+1.0%)

Although this doesn't account for points from free throws via foul drawing (FTr), which is a huge source of Jimmy's scoring efficiency. TS% or points per possession would capture this value. However, the salient point is the higher 2PT shot quality (+6%) Butler has over Flagg. I hope to see Cooper used as the screener, DHO guy, and off-ball 2PT threat more in the future. The delay, secondary action, and off-ball activity were a huge part of his game at Duke.

[bonita_the_frog]

I agree with the Jimmy Butler comparison, and also Grant Hill with the forceful handles and precise footwork.
I've seen more Grant Hill videos than any other player this year, so Flaggpole is really giving me everything i want!

[Ice Man]

So, here's the story -

When Kidd said that Flagg was the team's point guard early in the season, he didn't play Flagg at point guard. Instead, he had Flagg standing in the weak-side corner, waiting for a bailout pass. But now that Cooper is not the team's official point guard, Flagg is actually playing point guard. (Well, at least for the past 2 games, once Nembhard was inserted into the starting lineup.)

Which has people who haven't watched the team, meaning it seems every NBA announcer, explain that Flagg's first few games were bad because he was playing out of position at point guard. No, those games were bad because 1) they were his first games in the league and he was tentative, and 2) he was playing out of position by not being at point guard. However, Cooper is now getting the ball on the perimeter in the middle of the court, and is then making plays. As point guards do.

Quite ironic.

[Ice Man]

One player Cooper was compared to was Jimmy Butler.

That was, has been, and always will be my point of comparison. Including the part that Cooper is a natural #3, although like Jimmy he can play the #4 in a small lineup.

[Duke4life831]

So, here's the story -

When Kidd said that Flagg was the team's point guard early in the season, he didn't play Flagg at point guard. Instead, he had Flagg standing in the weak-side corner, waiting for a bailout pass. But now that Cooper is not the team's official point guard, Flagg is actually playing point guard. (Well, at least for the past 2 games, once Nembhard was inserted into the starting lineup.)

Which has people who haven't watched the team, meaning it seems every NBA announcer, explain that Flagg's first few games were bad because he was playing out of position at point guard. No, those games were bad because 1) they were his first games in the league and he was tentative, and 2) he was playing out of position by not being at point guard. However, Cooper is now getting the ball on the perimeter in the middle of the court, and is then making plays. As point guards do.

Quite ironic.

Ya just to add onto this. Those first 5 games where he was called the PG. He had a Time Per Possession of just 3.3 and averaged only 24 front court touches per game. Just to put that into context, you basically have to go outside the top 100 players in front court touches to get to guys that only get 24 front court touches per game.

You then look at the last week or so (not including the last game since it hasnt been updated for it yet), those numbers are now 31 front court touches per game and a Time Per Possession of 3.8. During that stretch he is roughly around 50th in the league in front court touches.

So still not like super high, but definitely a big bump from his "Flagg is the PG" days to start the year.

[tsherkin]

One player Cooper was compared to was Jimmy Butler.

That was, has been, and always will be my point of comparison. Including the part that Cooper is a natural #3, although like Jimmy he can play the #4 in a small lineup.

It makes good sense.


Watching him now, his confidence looks strong, and he looks pretty nasty going in either direction, attacking from the middle or the wing. He has a nice pull-up, a quality turnaround, good quickness, a confident handle... Dude looks like he's feeling it at the moment. He's got work to do, obviously, but that's true of anyone (especially that early in a career). But he looks pretty awesome right now. We are often prisoners of the moment, so the stretch against Miami, Memphis and the Lakers wasn't the greatest for him (12.3 ppg, 35.3% FG), but he's book-ended it with some brilliant performances, with two of his three performances of 26+ points.

Definitely a guy to watch.

[bonita_the_frog]

And even when Coop has a bad game its 12 points, 7 rebounds and not many shot attempts, so he doesn't hurt his team.
His IQ is high, so he's never going to shoot 8-27 in an NBA Finals Game 7 etc. and he doesn't turn the ball over so he'll never have 8 turnovers in a Game 6.

[FrodoBaggins]

A huge win against a top (yet injured) team and a strong performance from Flagg. Another higher-usage game (19 FGs + 4 FTs) despite Davis' return. This is what we should continue to see. The great thing about a precocious young talent is that they get exponentially better month-to-month, if not every game.

- 33 minutes played
- 24 point (10-19 FG, 1-3 3PT, 3-4 FT), 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 2 turnovers
- +13

[FrodoBaggins]

Last 11 games:

- 35.2 mpg
- 19.9 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.6 bpg, 2.0 topg
- 60.2% 2PT (11.6 2pa/g), 24.4% 3PT (3.7 3pa/g), 71.4% FT (4.5 fta/g), 57.5% TS

If he shot his expected 3PT% (36.6) average and his 80% FT average, his PPG and TS% would rise to 21.7 and 62.3. This is meaningful because I think his 60.2% 2PT on 11.6 2pa/g is replicable, not just a hot streak. That's the scoring ceiling he could have right now with an improved three-point shot. He's a better outside shooter than what he's shown, and you'd hope he can show that over the rest of the season.

[scrabbarista]

I agree with the Jimmy Butler comparison, and also Grant Hill with the forceful handles and precise footwork.
I've seen more Grant Hill videos than any other player this year, so Flaggpole is really giving me everything i want!

Yeah, agree. The rare Grant Hill comparison with some actual juice to it.

[Pelly24]

One player Cooper was compared to was Jimmy Butler. You can see the similarities with how they use bully-ball physicality on drives, and play off two feet. Also, both are high-IQ players who can pass, move off-ball for cuts, screens, deep seals/post mismatches, & offensive rebounds. And move well off-ball on defense, getting steals and deflections in the passing lanes.

A bigger (+1.75" height, +5.5" wingspan, +5" standing reach), better shooting Jimmy Butler was one of my favorite comparisons.

Anyway, I thought it prudent to share this highlight of Butler's most recent game to show the types of plays Cooper should be getting, but isn't.

0:10 - Jimmy screens, rolls, receives a lob pass at the rim, tips it in.
1:00 - Jimmy soft screens/slips, receives a roll pass, gets to the rim, passes to a cutting teammate who scores.
1:08 - Jimmy secures the defensive rebound, throws the hit-ahead pass, fills/runs the lane in semi-transition/early offense, receives entry pass uncontested in the paint, scores.
1:18 - Jimmy backdoor cuts from the corner, receives an entry pass right under the rim, scores.
1:48 - Jimmy backdoor cuts from the corner, receives a lob pass at the rim, scores.
2:37 - Jimmy fills/runs the lane in transition, receives at the wing, drives to the rim, collapses the defense, and passes to a cutting teammate who scores.

Watch on YouTube

6 assisted off-ball plays, 4 he scored on, and 2 he drew the defense and made the correct pass to the open man who scored.

Like Butler, Flagg excels in secondary/delay actions. So far, Cooper has rarely been used as a screener, and his off-ball movement has been used sparingly. The obvious lack of quality playmaking, terrible spacing, and bloated/overcrowded frontcourt are to blame. Coaching, too, I guess.

I think this is important to acknowledge. Most people evaluate performance based on the box score, without bothering to even contextualize the numbers. Cooper has been assisted on only 31.8% of his made 2PT FGs. For comparison, Butler is at 47.5% right now, with a 44.1% career average.

NBA.com's expected 2PT% lets us contextualize shooting percentages by accounting for shot quality:

Butler: 58.9% expected 2PT%; 54.6% actual 2PT% (-4.3%)
Flagg: 52.9% expected 2PT%; 53.9% actual 2PT% (+1.0%)

Although this doesn't account for points from free throws via foul drawing (FTr), which is a huge source of Jimmy's scoring efficiency. TS% or points per possession would capture this value. However, the salient point is the higher 2PT shot quality (+6%) Butler has over Flagg. I hope to see Cooper used as the screener, DHO guy, and off-ball 2PT threat more in the future. The delay, secondary action, and off-ball activity were a huge part of his game at Duke.

Great analysis. And I’m proud to say I’m likely the first person in the whole world to compare cooper to Butler. I saw him as an improved Jimmy because he can scale down and be everything from an impactful third or fourth option to a 1st option because he makes hustle plays, can defend really well, has a high IQ and can score from two or three levels and can cut and make clutch shots from midrange. But cooper has more inches in wingspan and standing reach. And he’ll only fill out and get stronger and more athletic for the next five or six years. Ju’s jumper will get more consistent, he’ll learn how to get to the line more. He’s great. Just needed some time and a better coach/decisions

[scrabbarista]

One player Cooper was compared to was Jimmy Butler. You can see the similarities with how they use bully-ball physicality on drives, and play off two feet. Also, both are high-IQ players who can pass, move off-ball for cuts, screens, deep seals/post mismatches, & offensive rebounds. And move well off-ball on defense, getting steals and deflections in the passing lanes.

A bigger (+1.75" height, +5.5" wingspan, +5" standing reach), better shooting Jimmy Butler was one of my favorite comparisons.

Anyway, I thought it prudent to share this highlight of Butler's most recent game to show the types of plays Cooper should be getting, but isn't.

0:10 - Jimmy screens, rolls, receives a lob pass at the rim, tips it in.
1:00 - Jimmy soft screens/slips, receives a roll pass, gets to the rim, passes to a cutting teammate who scores.
1:08 - Jimmy secures the defensive rebound, throws the hit-ahead pass, fills/runs the lane in semi-transition/early offense, receives entry pass uncontested in the paint, scores.
1:18 - Jimmy backdoor cuts from the corner, receives an entry pass right under the rim, scores.
1:48 - Jimmy backdoor cuts from the corner, receives a lob pass at the rim, scores.
2:37 - Jimmy fills/runs the lane in transition, receives at the wing, drives to the rim, collapses the defense, and passes to a cutting teammate who scores.

Watch on YouTube

6 assisted off-ball plays, 4 he scored on, and 2 he drew the defense and made the correct pass to the open man who scored.

Like Butler, Flagg excels in secondary/delay actions. So far, Cooper has rarely been used as a screener, and his off-ball movement has been used sparingly. The obvious lack of quality playmaking, terrible spacing, and bloated/overcrowded frontcourt are to blame. Coaching, too, I guess.

I think this is important to acknowledge. Most people evaluate performance based on the box score, without bothering to even contextualize the numbers. Cooper has been assisted on only 31.8% of his made 2PT FGs. For comparison, Butler is at 47.5% right now, with a 44.1% career average.

NBA.com's expected 2PT% lets us contextualize shooting percentages by accounting for shot quality:

Butler: 58.9% expected 2PT%; 54.6% actual 2PT% (-4.3%)
Flagg: 52.9% expected 2PT%; 53.9% actual 2PT% (+1.0%)

Although this doesn't account for points from free throws via foul drawing (FTr), which is a huge source of Jimmy's scoring efficiency. TS% or points per possession would capture this value. However, the salient point is the higher 2PT shot quality (+6%) Butler has over Flagg. I hope to see Cooper used as the screener, DHO guy, and off-ball 2PT threat more in the future. The delay, secondary action, and off-ball activity were a huge part of his game at Duke.

Great video showing why Draymond Green is one of the greatest players of all time.

I joke, but only partly. Good luck finding another front court player who makes those passes with regularity.

Maybe Cooper could...

[Ice Man]

And I’m proud to say I’m likely the first person in the whole world to compare cooper to Butler.

Them's fighting words.

[Duke4life831]

Last 11 games:

- 35.2 mpg
- 19.9 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.6 bpg, 2.0 topg
- 60.2% 2PT (11.6 2pa/g), 24.4% 3PT (3.7 3pa/g), 71.4% FT (4.5 fta/g), 57.5% TS

If he shot his expected 3PT% (36.6) average and his 80% FT average, his PPG and TS% would rise to 21.7 and 62.3. This is meaningful because I think his 60.2% 2PT on 11.6 2pa/g is replicable, not just a hot streak. That's the scoring ceiling he could have right now with an improved three-point shot. He's a better outside shooter than what he's shown, and you'd hope he can show that over the rest of the season.

Ya the guy is already shooting 80% at the rim. If you told me Coop could have a 10 game stretch before Christmas where he's averaging 20ppg on solid efficiency (I believe just 1% shy of league average TS%) with his 3pt shot being just 24% and his FT% being low 70s.

Id say he is far beyond what his scoring expectations were prior to the season. He had that rough start last year in college with his jumper and FT as well, and his overall scoring was pretty inefficient because of it. The rest of his scoring game, really didnt click until his jumper started falling (once it started to fall he was lights out).

So the fact that he's already putting together 10 game stretches where he's averaging 20ppg and shooting 80% at the rim. What's he going to look like once the jumper starts to fall? Hell what is going to look like when he's 25 and bigger and stronger, to go with a consistent jumper?

[MrGoat]

It's ridiculous that people are already making proclamations on his ceiling before he's even turned 19. He is one of only 4 players all time to win the NCAA player of the year award as a freshman, the other three were Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, and Zion Williamson, and Cooper did it younger than any of them did. The runway for him to improve is very long

[Duke4life831]

It's ridiculous that people are already making proclamations on his ceiling before he's even turned 19. He is one of only 4 players all time to win the NCAA player of the year award as a freshman, the other three were Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, and Zion Williamson, and Cooper did it younger than any of them did. The runway for him to improve is very long

Yup and to add to this, Flagg's offensive progression over the last 3 years is pretty elite. He first made a name for himself at 15 in the U17 world cup, as just a freak defender. Then his first year at Montverde, mostly still just a defender with a little secondary playmaking. Then his last year he started to step up the scoring. At Duke the offensive progression continued.

And there are a few things that already stand out that he's progressed at since his time at Duke. He wasnt good in clutch situations, he just wasnt. I believe so far he is like #1 or at least top 5 in the league right now in clutch FG%. He was also a pretty good finisher at the rim, but I wouldnt call him elite at it last year. He's shooting 80% at the rim so far this year. He's already an elite finisher at the rim.