Nikola Jokić and best Bigmen passers of all time

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Cousins is better. The eye tells us so. The long term numbers tell us so. Are you seriously arguing that a flabby Euro in his 4th season is better than a guy that has often been considered the best big man in the game for nearly a decade and was only pulled back by a very sorry Kings supporting cast?

What is this, trolling? You can make a case on Cousins, if you wish, I'm sure many respectable people think the same.
But this is rubbish.

[Riko]

"Cousins is better" lol
Realgm at its best.

[Sgt Major]

a flabby Euro in his 4th season

such argument much wow

[Primetime23]

When did Cousins led his team to the regular season record that Denver is having right now ??? Cousins is good at putting monster numbers but he can't lead the team by himself to any kind of success. Since Denver acquired Jokic , that team kept improving season after season without having any stars on its roster. Jokic makes his teammates better players.

Jokics effect on winning is definitely bigger than Boogie's effect on winning, to argue otherwise is silly IMO.

Silly??? Jokic is 2.5 assists shy of averaging triple double for the season. He could easily average 25 or more points per game if he wasn't unselfish player , right now its required for him to do that due to many injuries Denver have, in January he's averaging 25,12,8 . There were many webistes like ringer or bleacher report who were compering numbers when Jokic and Cousins were the same age, and they were taking Jokic over him. Winning is important and you can't have any success with Cousins as your best player, it was proven season after season, even the last season when he went down, team played better without him, his stats are empty.

LOL re-read what I said, i completely agree with you.

[UcanUwill]

You need medical check up if your eyes tells you Cousins is better than Jokic.

[John Murdoch]

What qualifies as bigmen? 7ft or what

[mcmurphy]

So you now conceding at least one center is better.

“Empty stats guy?” Lol how many times has Jokic lead his team to the playoffs?

dude,

2014-15 Nuggets record 30-52
2015-16 Nuggets record 33-49 (first Jokic season, 22mpg, PER= 21.5 -- players with most minutes, Harris/Barton/Mudiay)
2016-17 Nuggets record 40-42 (second Jokic season, 28mpg, PER= 26.3 -- players with most minutes, Chandler/Gallo/Nelson)
2017-18 Nuggets record 46-36 (third Jokic season, 32mpg, PER= 24.4) -- players with most minutes, Barton/Murray/Chandler)
2018-18 Nuggets record 56-26 (proj.) (fourth Jokic season, 31mpg, PER= 27.4 -- players with most minutes, Murray/Morris/Hernan)

Do we really want to compare Jokic with Cousins?

Cousins is better. The eye tells us so. The long term numbers tell us so. Are you seriously arguing that a flabby Euro in his 4th season is better than a guy that has often been considered the best big man in the game for nearly a decade and was only pulled back by a very sorry Kings supporting cast?

your eyes need a good ophthalmologist

2009-10 Kings record 25-57
2010-11 Kings record 24-58 (first DMC season, 28mpg, PER= 14.6 -- players with most minutes, Udrih/Evans all PER>14.4)
2011-12 Kings record 22-44 (second DMC season, 30mpg, PER= 21.7 -- T.Evans/Thorton/IT all PER>16.5)
2012-13 Kings record 28-54 (third DMC season, 30mpg, PER= 20.2) -- IT/T.Evans all PER> 17.5)
2013-14 Kings record 28-54 (fourth DMC season, 32mpg, PER= 26.1 -- IT/Gay all PER> 19.5)

edit:
Denver record (from 2nd to 4th Jokic season)
113-83 (with Jokic) ==> with Jokic Denver thorugh 3 seasons was a 47.2 win team
7-17 (without Jokic) ==> without Jokic Denver thorugh 3 seasons was a 23.9 win team

SAC record (from 2nd to 4th Cousins season)
74-136 (with DMC) ==> with DMC SAC thorugh 3 seasons was a 28.8 win team
4-20 (without DMC) ==> without DMC SAC thorugh 3 seasons was a 16.4 win team

It's true that SAC supporting cast was worse of Denver (but also Denver without Jokic would be a lottery team) but the impact of Jokic in terms of team wins has been immensely superior

[Sildegil]

Boris DIAW!

[Mickey8]

Watch on YouTube

Another insane pass from Jokic on 1:41, off the drive , not even looking for the open three, the best vision in the league by far.

[Mickey8]

dude,

2014-15 Nuggets record 30-52
2015-16 Nuggets record 33-49 (first Jokic season, 22mpg, PER= 21.5 -- players with most minutes, Harris/Barton/Mudiay)
2016-17 Nuggets record 40-42 (second Jokic season, 28mpg, PER= 26.3 -- players with most minutes, Chandler/Gallo/Nelson)
2017-18 Nuggets record 46-36 (third Jokic season, 32mpg, PER= 24.4) -- players with most minutes, Barton/Murray/Chandler)
2018-18 Nuggets record 56-26 (proj.) (fourth Jokic season, 31mpg, PER= 27.4 -- players with most minutes, Murray/Morris/Hernan)

Do we really want to compare Jokic with Cousins?

Cousins is better. The eye tells us so. The long term numbers tell us so. Are you seriously arguing that a flabby Euro in his 4th season is better than a guy that has often been considered the best big man in the game for nearly a decade and was only pulled back by a very sorry Kings supporting cast?

your eyes need a good ophthalmologist

2009-10 Kings record 25-57
2010-11 Kings record 24-58 (first DMC season, 28mpg, PER= 14.6 -- players with most minutes, Udrih/Evans all PER>14.4)
2011-12 Kings record 22-44 (second DMC season, 30mpg, PER= 21.7 -- T.Evans/Thorton/IT all PER>16.5)
2012-13 Kings record 28-54 (third DMC season, 30mpg, PER= 20.2) -- IT/T.Evans all PER> 17.5)
2013-14 Kings record 28-54 (fourth DMC season, 32mpg, PER= 26.1 -- IT/Gay all PER> 19.5)

edit:
Denver record (from 2nd to 4th Jokic season)
113-83 (with Jokic) ==> with Jokic Denver thorugh 3 seasons was a 47.2 win team
7-17 (without Jokic) ==> without Jokic Denver thorugh 3 seasons was a 23.9 win team

SAC record (from 2nd to 4th Cousins season)
74-136 (with DMC) ==> with DMC SAC thorugh 3 seasons was a 28.8 win team
4-20 (without DMC) ==> without DMC SAC thorugh 3 seasons was a 16.4 win team

It's true that SAC supporting cast was worse of Denver (but also Denver without Jokic would be a lottery team) but the impact of Jokic in terms of team wins has been immensely superior

I beg the differ, Denver's roster is nothing special . Cousins had Thomas,Collison,Evans etc, very good players. I would argue that he had some much better teamates.

[Pachinko_]

I don't think I've ever seen anybody, regardless of position, passing to places on the court that he never looked at throughout the possession. Not the typical no-look pass where you turn your head the other way in the last second, but totally blindly, just knowing that someone is there.

[SoCalNuggsFan]

I don't think I've ever seen anybody, regardless of position, passing to places on the court that he never looked at throughout the possession. Not the typical no-look pass where you turn your head the other way in the last second, but totally blindly, just knowing that someone is there.

This is the best part of the Jokic experience. Rewinding possessions trying to figure out when the hell jokic looked to see there was someone in the corner.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

This year Jokic is on a pace to become the all time leader at assists per minute at center.
Last year he had the fourth best season behind Sam Lacy, Boerwinkle and Divac.

[KrAzY3]

Jokic is easily the best passing big man of all time. I'm probably one of the few posters here that started watching the NBA in the late 70's. His passing ability is just that good. And yes, he should be an All Star this year.

So, Jokic is averaging the same 5.3APG as Horford this season, Horford has more total assists this season, and Horford is an all star but Jokic is not, but Jokic is not only the best passing big man this year, but of all time.

Horford aside, there's a habit of trying to make current generation players the best of all time. The goat is Lebron, Curry is the best shooter of all time (that may be true), and Jokic is the best bigman passer of all time.

It's real easy to say if you didn't really see much beyond those guys play basketball. More realistically though is to say Jokic is one of the best bigman passers, but that's never stopped anyone here before.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Are we talking just centers?

If we're talking "big men" I'd still regard Magic Johnson at 6'9 as a big man who was just able to play a guard position.

My interpretation is more positional than height. Magic was a tall guard, but not a ''bigman''

Honorable mention: Joakim Noah.

Yeah, after I created a poll I remembered him almost instantly. I also wanted to include Diaw, but I didnt wanted to be called out as Euro fanboy again, there were too many Euros in the poll already

Power forward was Bird's natural position. Bird defended power forwards and rebounded like a big man and was a genuine 6' 9" while Magic was just under 6' 8". Bird was more of a big man than Diaw. It is only because McHale was also a power forward that people think Bird was a small forward.

If we are counting power forwards then I vote for Bird.
If we count undersized poward forwards as big men then Draymond Green should be considered. Green isn't flashy but he is a very effective passer. But LeBron is bigger than Green.

[Sgt Major]

I don't think I've ever seen anybody, regardless of position, passing to places on the court that he never looked at throughout the possession. Not the typical no-look pass where you turn your head the other way in the last second, but totally blindly, just knowing that someone is there.

Yeah, here's the view from another angle:
https://www.facebook.com/451215734930056/videos/2314935172072781/

He didn't have a single look at Morris, yet he threw a perfect assist.

[Pachinko_]

He didn't have a single look at Morris, yet he threw a perfect assist.

He's a fkn gypsy magician this dude. Fortune teller. Rasputin

[mcmurphy]

A january month

25.1ppg /11.8reb/ 8.2ast/ ts% 0.602

probably it will not even be enough to win West Player of Month.

[UcanUwill]

Jokic is easily the best passing big man of all time. I'm probably one of the few posters here that started watching the NBA in the late 70's. His passing ability is just that good. And yes, he should be an All Star this year.

So, Jokic is averaging the same 5.3APG as Horford this season, Horford has more total assists this season, and Horford is an all star but Jokic is not, but Jokic is not only the best passing big man this year, but of all time.

Horford aside, there's a habit of trying to make current generation players the best of all time. The goat is Lebron, Curry is the best shooter of all time (that may be true), and Jokic is the best bigman passer of all time.

It's real easy to say if you didn't really see much beyond those guys play basketball. More realistically though is to say Jokic is one of the best bigman passers, but that's never stopped anyone here before.

The game and players evolving, so I think in Jokic and Curry case its fair to call them goats. Who could ever shoot like Curry in the past? Really no one. And I think unless shooting skills keeps evolving, I think Curry will be considered GOAT shooter long after he retires. Jokic as goat passer is far more debatable, but I myself cant remember of better center passer. He probably is best passer in the game right now.

Yes, recency bias is real, but past gets legendised too. If not for LeBron, a single freak player who was clearly head and shoulders above the rest superstars in talented generation, I think no one could have challenged Jordan in GOAT conversations and his legend keeps growing.

[_Joker]

He didn't have a single look at Morris, yet he threw a perfect assist.

He's a fkn gypsy magician this dude. Fortune teller. Rasputin

He had four defenders collapse on him too, as he was driving, when Morris was moving from the corner pocket to the flank.