Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[CodeBreaker]

Jordan never had a choke job worse than 2011 LeBron

He got beat 3x in the first round of the playoffs. That alone is worse than losing in the finals.

Lol not even close. LeBron was expected to win. MJ during those first round exits was even performing better than that horrific LeChoke in 2011 in his prime.

[timO]

what lebron did last night in 4Q shows why he is not the goat, and will never be, even if he threepeats in LA

He is scaried in clutch, even Caruso has to shot because of how scaried is lebron, in 2016 was kyrie who seal it.

[mixerball]

ironic title considering how reasonable original post is. LOL

[The4thHorseman]

6 out of 6 finals mvp.

Which required a 20+ month rest after the 3rd FMVP due to mental and physical exhaustion.

[shi-woo]

Reading through the last couple of pages in this thread, I find it kind of funny that people are holding MJ going to college against him, or if it detracts against him in any way.

He won a title in college too. He hit the game winning shot in a title game against Ewings Georgetown Hoyas.

Jordan's college years just add to his resume, and are one of the bright spots because it shows how clutch he was even as a college recruit, and that he won at all level.

Michael's college resume and stats are very impressive for 3 years, and one of the reason why his basketball career looks so nice on paper.

[The4thHorseman]

Watch on YouTube

That took all of 30 seconds to find.

Pippen, Horace Grant, and Toni Kukoc were all rookies with Jordan and they all turned out to be damn good players. Lebron would have demanded they get traded for his buddies.

Any other questions?

Oh, so 1 example of the so called physicality from a guy who was 1 inch taller and 30 pounds lighter that LeBron?? That's what he wouldn't be able to over come??

Grant made 1 All-star team (in 94 w/o MJ) and 4 All-defensive teams with 1993 being the only one with MJ. Kukoc was already an established professional playing FIBA ball overseas since he was 17yrs old. His rookie year (1994) he was already 25yrs old and MJ had quit the game. So how did MJ happen to make this 25yr old rookie so great withoutt even being on the team fulltime until 2yrs later??

You asked for examples and I gave you video proof of the type of fouls that happened in the 90's NBA. If you want more examples, look up the Jordan Rules. The only other player to have to put up with that type of strategy is Shack.

PIppen and Grant were rookies together and developed into pretty damn good players.

As a rookie, Pippen wasn’t good. In fact, he barely displayed rebounding skills and an ability to steal the ball. Pippen became part of Chicago's young forward tandem with Horace Grant, although both came off the bench to back up Brad Sellers and Charles Oakley, respectively, during their rookie seasons. With fellow Bull Michael Jordan as a motivational and instructional mentor, Pippen refined his skills and slowly developed many new ones over the course of his career.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/824188-michael-jordans-genius-method-of-creating-pippen-in-his-own-image

Kukoc was a far from a finished product when he came to the NBA. Playing Europe in the 90's is nowhere near as impressive as it is nowadays. Until Kukoc there were only a few Europeans that even played in the NBA. Remember what the Dream Team did to European teams.
From Kukoc:

"He was no different to me and he treated us all the same. He simply pushes you to the extremes. There was a good reason for that because our team had the highest expectations. It wasn’t easy and sure not everyone could handle it all. There was a hierarchy and everyone knew their place in the team and that was always the case."

I've made my point that Jordan pushed his teammates to improve and helped build the best team ever. Lebron chose a different route to winning. He used his leverage as the biggest star in the NBA to build stacked teams with other stars and veterans on cheap contracts. I personally have more respect for the guy who played with the team he was drafted by and went through the grind. Not the one that has repeatedly shopped his talents around to the easiest situation.

Pippen did become a great player, but you made it sound as if Scottie would have been just an avg. player w/o MJ making him into what he became. We have no idea what kind of player he could have become if he stayed with Seattle. People like to say MJ made Pippen when they have no idea what would have happened if he played elsewhere. Safe to say he became a better player with MJ around, but he also had a lot of talent even before the 2 stepped on a court together. He was the best all around 2nd option player of the 90's. Every Finals the Bulls played, Pippen outscored and outplayed the other teams 2nd option.

I know Kukoc wasn't a finished product, but he was a 25yr old rookie who played pro ball since he was 17 and was probably the best international perimeter shooter (with size) in the NBA at the time. If he was 17yr old rookie, then that would be a different story.

MJ signed a 8yr 25mil contract in the summer of 88 which was huge money at the time. That was the first year of free agency and MJ didn't have enough years in to qualify for free agency. So he couldn't have left if he wanted to. He took the big bucks and hoped he would get over the hump.

Funny you say James built stacked teams yet he never had a teammate make All-NBA on both sides of the court like Pippen did from 1992-1998. Rodman led the league in rebounding all 3 seasons he was there. MJ and his teammates got to use the shortened 3pt line which was the same distance that the WNBA uses now. Steve Kerr one of the best 3pt shooters during that time and was a 50-40-90 guy a season with MJ. So you can say LeBron stacked teams, but the Bulls were just as stacked in an era where the fans were craving for offense, instead of the usual 77-73 Final type scores. Plus James didn't have to take practically a 2yr layoff so he could rest up and recover from his mental and physical exhaustion (as MJ put it in the last dance). That no doubt played a huge factor into his success from 96-98.

[Huffman]

Spoiler:

Oh, so 1 example of the so called physicality from a guy who was 1 inch taller and 30 pounds lighter that LeBron?? That's what he wouldn't be able to over come??

Grant made 1 All-star team (in 94 w/o MJ) and 4 All-defensive teams with 1993 being the only one with MJ. Kukoc was already an established professional playing FIBA ball overseas since he was 17yrs old. His rookie year (1994) he was already 25yrs old and MJ had quit the game. So how did MJ happen to make this 25yr old rookie so great withoutt even being on the team fulltime until 2yrs later??

You asked for examples and I gave you video proof of the type of fouls that happened in the 90's NBA. If you want more examples, look up the Jordan Rules. The only other player to have to put up with that type of strategy is Shack.

PIppen and Grant were rookies together and developed into pretty damn good players.

As a rookie, Pippen wasn’t good. In fact, he barely displayed rebounding skills and an ability to steal the ball. Pippen became part of Chicago's young forward tandem with Horace Grant, although both came off the bench to back up Brad Sellers and Charles Oakley, respectively, during their rookie seasons. With fellow Bull Michael Jordan as a motivational and instructional mentor, Pippen refined his skills and slowly developed many new ones over the course of his career.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/824188-michael-jordans-genius-method-of-creating-pippen-in-his-own-image

Kukoc was a far from a finished product when he came to the NBA. Playing Europe in the 90's is nowhere near as impressive as it is nowadays. Until Kukoc there were only a few Europeans that even played in the NBA. Remember what the Dream Team did to European teams.
From Kukoc:

"He was no different to me and he treated us all the same. He simply pushes you to the extremes. There was a good reason for that because our team had the highest expectations. It wasn’t easy and sure not everyone could handle it all. There was a hierarchy and everyone knew their place in the team and that was always the case."

I've made my point that Jordan pushed his teammates to improve and helped build the best team ever. Lebron chose a different route to winning. He used his leverage as the biggest star in the NBA to build stacked teams with other stars and veterans on cheap contracts. I personally have more respect for the guy who played with the team he was drafted by and went through the grind. Not the one that has repeatedly shopped his talents around to the easiest situation.

Pippen did become a great player, but you made it sound as if Scottie would have been just an avg. player w/o MJ making him into what he became. We have no idea what kind of player he could have become if he stayed with Seattle. People like to say MJ made Pippen when they have no idea what would have happened if he played elsewhere. Safe to say he became a better player with MJ around, but he also had a lot of talent even before the 2 stepped on a court together. He was the best all around 2nd option player of the 90's. Every Finals the Bulls played, Pippen outscored and outplayed the other teams 2nd option.

I know Kukoc wasn't a finished product, but he was a 25yr old rookie who played pro ball since he was 17 and was probably the best international perimeter shooter (with size) in the NBA at the time. If he was 17yr old rookie, then that would be a different story.

MJ signed a 8yr 25mil contract in the summer of 88 which was huge money at the time. That was the first year of free agency and MJ didn't have enough years in to qualify for free agency. So he couldn't have left if he wanted to. He took the big bucks and hoped he would get over the hump.

Funny you say James built stacked teams yet he never had a teammate make All-NBA on both sides of the court like Pippen did from 1992-1998. Rodman led the league in rebounding all 3 seasons he was there. MJ and his teammates got to use the shortened 3pt line which was the same distance that the WNBA uses now. Steve Kerr one of the best 3pt shooters during that time and was a 50-40-90 guy a season with MJ. So you can say LeBron stacked teams, but the Bulls were just as stacked in an era where the fans were craving for offense, instead of the usual 77-73 Final type scores. Plus James didn't have to take practically a 2yr layoff so he could rest up and recover from his mental and physical exhaustion (as MJ put it in the last dance). That no doubt played a huge factor into his success from 96-98.

My whole point is that Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, and any other young player would have been traded for stars and/or veterans to appease Lebron. Being able to play for years with Jordan allowed them to develop as second or third options behind the greatest scoring threat ever.

Kerr was not a great or even good player. He was useless on defense and couldn't create his own shot on offense. His only job was to shoot open jumpers and hit technical free throws. He didn't even bring the ball up the court like a traditional point guard.

Rodman got traded to the Bulls for their backup center, Will Perdue. No other team was even willing to take on Rodman because he was uncontrollable. Jordan and Phil Jackson were able to keep Rodman in line (for the most part) for three championships. Jordan didn't demand the trade, nor did he help orchestrate Rodman's exit from San Antonio. The Bulls rolled the dice and it worked out.

[Arp590]

what lebron did last night in 4Q shows why he is not the goat, and will never be, even if he threepeats in LA

He is scaried in clutch, even Caruso has to shot because of how scaried is lebron, in 2016 was kyrie who seal it.

Caruso was completely wide open, Lebron made the right pass.
A low IQ move would be to force a shot when you have players wide open.

[reflex35]

Is there a reason to even compare the best player in nba history to LeQueen?

There probably is only is alternative universe... were peak MJ meets peak Queen and literally makes him cry by dunking on his big head a few times during the game...

[michaelm]

Oh, so 1 example of the so called physicality from a guy who was 1 inch taller and 30 pounds lighter that LeBron?? That's what he wouldn't be able to over come??

Grant made 1 All-star team (in 94 w/o MJ) and 4 All-defensive teams with 1993 being the only one with MJ. Kukoc was already an established professional playing FIBA ball overseas since he was 17yrs old. His rookie year (1994) he was already 25yrs old and MJ had quit the game. So how did MJ happen to make this 25yr old rookie so great withoutt even being on the team fulltime until 2yrs later??

You asked for examples and I gave you video proof of the type of fouls that happened in the 90's NBA. If you want more examples, look up the Jordan Rules. The only other player to have to put up with that type of strategy is Shack.

PIppen and Grant were rookies together and developed into pretty damn good players.

As a rookie, Pippen wasn’t good. In fact, he barely displayed rebounding skills and an ability to steal the ball. Pippen became part of Chicago's young forward tandem with Horace Grant, although both came off the bench to back up Brad Sellers and Charles Oakley, respectively, during their rookie seasons. With fellow Bull Michael Jordan as a motivational and instructional mentor, Pippen refined his skills and slowly developed many new ones over the course of his career.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/824188-michael-jordans-genius-method-of-creating-pippen-in-his-own-image

Kukoc was a far from a finished product when he came to the NBA. Playing Europe in the 90's is nowhere near as impressive as it is nowadays. Until Kukoc there were only a few Europeans that even played in the NBA. Remember what the Dream Team did to European teams.
From Kukoc:

"He was no different to me and he treated us all the same. He simply pushes you to the extremes. There was a good reason for that because our team had the highest expectations. It wasn’t easy and sure not everyone could handle it all. There was a hierarchy and everyone knew their place in the team and that was always the case."

I've made my point that Jordan pushed his teammates to improve and helped build the best team ever. Lebron chose a different route to winning. He used his leverage as the biggest star in the NBA to build stacked teams with other stars and veterans on cheap contracts. I personally have more respect for the guy who played with the team he was drafted by and went through the grind. Not the one that has repeatedly shopped his talents around to the easiest situation.

Pippen did become a great player, but you made it sound as if Scottie would have been just an avg. player w/o MJ making him into what he became. We have no idea what kind of player he could have become if he stayed with Seattle. People like to say MJ made Pippen when they have no idea what would have happened if he played elsewhere. Safe to say he became a better player with MJ around, but he also had a lot of talent even before the 2 stepped on a court together. He was the best all around 2nd option player of the 90's. Every Finals the Bulls played, Pippen outscored and outplayed the other teams 2nd option.

I know Kukoc wasn't a finished product, but he was a 25yr old rookie who played pro ball since he was 17 and was probably the best international perimeter shooter (with size) in the NBA at the time. If he was 17yr old rookie, then that would be a different story.

MJ signed a 8yr 25mil contract in the summer of 88 which was huge money at the time. That was the first year of free agency and MJ didn't have enough years in to qualify for free agency. So he couldn't have left if he wanted to. He took the big bucks and hoped he would get over the hump.

Funny you say James built stacked teams yet he never had a teammate make All-NBA on both sides of the court like Pippen did from 1992-1998. Rodman led the league in rebounding all 3 seasons he was there. MJ and his teammates got to use the shortened 3pt line which was the same distance that the WNBA uses now. Steve Kerr one of the best 3pt shooters during that time and was a 50-40-90 guy a season with MJ. So you can say LeBron stacked teams, but the Bulls were just as stacked in an era where the fans were craving for offense, instead of the usual 77-73 Final type scores. Plus James didn't have to take practically a 2yr layoff so he could rest up and recover from his mental and physical exhaustion (as MJ put it in the last dance). That no doubt played a huge factor into his success from 96-98.

Yes Lebron is more robust than pretty much any player in NBA history including MJ.

Otherwise the whole point of having a great player on your team is to build a great team around him, and it is hard to think of a word to apply to arguments that in a comparison with LeBron having a better team built around him is somehow a negative for MJ other than nonsensical. The Bulls are no traditional powerhouse everyone wants to play for, and won precisely zero titles before his tenure and have won none since.

[GSWFan1994]

Very interesting thread to re-read, mainly the pages 2-5 part.

2 thumbs up, would recommend.

[Rust_Cohle]

Put Mj on 2011 Miami and they crush Dallas. Lebron went up against ZERO all NBA players in the eastern conference, in a bad conference compared to the west during his finals streak.

Jordan’s resume even without the championships is more impressive than lebron. He’s done it all DPOY and everything

[Rust_Cohle]

Oh, so 1 example of the so called physicality from a guy who was 1 inch taller and 30 pounds lighter that LeBron?? That's what he wouldn't be able to over come??

Grant made 1 All-star team (in 94 w/o MJ) and 4 All-defensive teams with 1993 being the only one with MJ. Kukoc was already an established professional playing FIBA ball overseas since he was 17yrs old. His rookie year (1994) he was already 25yrs old and MJ had quit the game. So how did MJ happen to make this 25yr old rookie so great withoutt even being on the team fulltime until 2yrs later??

You asked for examples and I gave you video proof of the type of fouls that happened in the 90's NBA. If you want more examples, look up the Jordan Rules. The only other player to have to put up with that type of strategy is Shack.

PIppen and Grant were rookies together and developed into pretty damn good players.

As a rookie, Pippen wasn’t good. In fact, he barely displayed rebounding skills and an ability to steal the ball. Pippen became part of Chicago's young forward tandem with Horace Grant, although both came off the bench to back up Brad Sellers and Charles Oakley, respectively, during their rookie seasons. With fellow Bull Michael Jordan as a motivational and instructional mentor, Pippen refined his skills and slowly developed many new ones over the course of his career.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/824188-michael-jordans-genius-method-of-creating-pippen-in-his-own-image

Kukoc was a far from a finished product when he came to the NBA. Playing Europe in the 90's is nowhere near as impressive as it is nowadays. Until Kukoc there were only a few Europeans that even played in the NBA. Remember what the Dream Team did to European teams.
From Kukoc:

"He was no different to me and he treated us all the same. He simply pushes you to the extremes. There was a good reason for that because our team had the highest expectations. It wasn’t easy and sure not everyone could handle it all. There was a hierarchy and everyone knew their place in the team and that was always the case."

I've made my point that Jordan pushed his teammates to improve and helped build the best team ever. Lebron chose a different route to winning. He used his leverage as the biggest star in the NBA to build stacked teams with other stars and veterans on cheap contracts. I personally have more respect for the guy who played with the team he was drafted by and went through the grind. Not the one that has repeatedly shopped his talents around to the easiest situation.

Pippen did become a great player, but you made it sound as if Scottie would have been just an avg. player w/o MJ making him into what he became. We have no idea what kind of player he could have become if he stayed with Seattle. People like to say MJ made Pippen when they have no idea what would have happened if he played elsewhere. Safe to say he became a better player with MJ around, but he also had a lot of talent even before the 2 stepped on a court together. He was the best all around 2nd option player of the 90's. Every Finals the Bulls played, Pippen outscored and outplayed the other teams 2nd option.

I know Kukoc wasn't a finished product, but he was a 25yr old rookie who played pro ball since he was 17 and was probably the best international perimeter shooter (with size) in the NBA at the time. If he was 17yr old rookie, then that would be a different story.

MJ signed a 8yr 25mil contract in the summer of 88 which was huge money at the time. That was the first year of free agency and MJ didn't have enough years in to qualify for free agency. So he couldn't have left if he wanted to. He took the big bucks and hoped he would get over the hump.

Funny you say James built stacked teams yet he never had a teammate make All-NBA on both sides of the court like Pippen did from 1992-1998. Rodman led the league in rebounding all 3 seasons he was there. MJ and his teammates got to use the shortened 3pt line which was the same distance that the WNBA uses now. Steve Kerr one of the best 3pt shooters during that time and was a 50-40-90 guy a season with MJ. So you can say LeBron stacked teams, but the Bulls were just as stacked in an era where the fans were craving for offense, instead of the usual 77-73 Final type scores. Plus James didn't have to take practically a 2yr layoff so he could rest up and recover from his mental and physical exhaustion (as MJ put it in the last dance). That no doubt played a huge factor into his success from 96-98.

The 2 year layoff is what is most impressive. To step away for that long and to come back and THREE peat is insane. Lebron never faced an all nba player on the way to all those finals when he was in the east which was a significantly worse conference than the west. Jordan never had a big man as good as AD either.

[bledredwine]

Yep, Jordan was a much better player and I genuinely don’t think believe it’s close. I’m terms of scoring and defense it certainly isn’t. The stats and achievements reflect that. If you’d like, I’ll be back later with a very in depth guide from multiple angles, including addressing the ridiculous Scottie arguments that lebron fans use to make excuses since there are little else to do in the discussion.

Jordan really left no wiggle room, apparently.

By the way, it’s fun to see Kyrie in the finals this year.

[Rust_Cohle]

Pippen was All-NBA on both sides of the ball for every title run except in 1991 when he was All-Defensive that year. In the 1991 Finals he outscored Magic even though Pip was second option on offense and played smothering defense.

Better question is, did MJ ever face an opposing 2nd option that was a better all around player than Pippen??

Him being All-NBA probably still had something to do with playing with MJ and winning. Just looking at stats shows how much better D was played at the time, because offensively he was nothing special during 93' when they beat my Suns. Just comparing him with someone like Oubre he was better at assists and nothing else though being 27 at the time while I'm comparing with a 24yo KO.

Uh, no it didn't. Pippen was a great player who finished 3rd in MVP voting in 1994, was 1 bad call away in game 7 of making the ECF and that was done WITHOUT MJ. That was done with him never being 1st option before, nor looked as a leader until then.

He was that good.

For 1 season. Bulls struggled badly the second year Jordan was gone. They were a horrible 34-31 when Jordan returned and then he got them to 47-35.

[Karate Diop]

MJ never willed a team to the finals on his own... Hell heb could never get out of the first round on his own.

[Hair Jordan]

Is there a reason why this obvious troll thread wasn’t locked up months ago?

[web123888]

The most reasonable argument there is. Jordan is a much better basketball player than LeBron. Much much better scorer, way better mid range and post game, way more clutch, better defensive player. For his position a comparable rebounder. LeBron’s only edge is passing.

Jordan also is far superior to LeBron when it matters going a perfect 6-0 in the Finals and never choking once which LeBron has multiple times. He also required far less help than LeBron to win far more and in way less time.

Jordan’s peak is far superior to LeBron’s by the awards/accolades, stats and eye test.

When it comes to purely playing basketball im not even sold LeBron is a better basketball player than Larry Bird. Great player but highly overrated on here.

LeBron’s competition in the East was moribund his entire career. For all the talk about the supposedly difficult era he played in, he played in easily one of the worst conferences in recent memory in the 2010’s East. A free path to the Finals every year.

[JRoy]

6-0 in the finals and never part of the Superfriends.

[The4thHorseman]

You asked for examples and I gave you video proof of the type of fouls that happened in the 90's NBA. If you want more examples, look up the Jordan Rules. The only other player to have to put up with that type of strategy is Shack.

PIppen and Grant were rookies together and developed into pretty damn good players.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/824188-michael-jordans-genius-method-of-creating-pippen-in-his-own-image

Kukoc was a far from a finished product when he came to the NBA. Playing Europe in the 90's is nowhere near as impressive as it is nowadays. Until Kukoc there were only a few Europeans that even played in the NBA. Remember what the Dream Team did to European teams.
From Kukoc:


I've made my point that Jordan pushed his teammates to improve and helped build the best team ever. Lebron chose a different route to winning. He used his leverage as the biggest star in the NBA to build stacked teams with other stars and veterans on cheap contracts. I personally have more respect for the guy who played with the team he was drafted by and went through the grind. Not the one that has repeatedly shopped his talents around to the easiest situation.

Pippen did become a great player, but you made it sound as if Scottie would have been just an avg. player w/o MJ making him into what he became. We have no idea what kind of player he could have become if he stayed with Seattle. People like to say MJ made Pippen when they have no idea what would have happened if he played elsewhere. Safe to say he became a better player with MJ around, but he also had a lot of talent even before the 2 stepped on a court together. He was the best all around 2nd option player of the 90's. Every Finals the Bulls played, Pippen outscored and outplayed the other teams 2nd option.

I know Kukoc wasn't a finished product, but he was a 25yr old rookie who played pro ball since he was 17 and was probably the best international perimeter shooter (with size) in the NBA at the time. If he was 17yr old rookie, then that would be a different story.

MJ signed a 8yr 25mil contract in the summer of 88 which was huge money at the time. That was the first year of free agency and MJ didn't have enough years in to qualify for free agency. So he couldn't have left if he wanted to. He took the big bucks and hoped he would get over the hump.

Funny you say James built stacked teams yet he never had a teammate make All-NBA on both sides of the court like Pippen did from 1992-1998. Rodman led the league in rebounding all 3 seasons he was there. MJ and his teammates got to use the shortened 3pt line which was the same distance that the WNBA uses now. Steve Kerr one of the best 3pt shooters during that time and was a 50-40-90 guy a season with MJ. So you can say LeBron stacked teams, but the Bulls were just as stacked in an era where the fans were craving for offense, instead of the usual 77-73 Final type scores. Plus James didn't have to take practically a 2yr layoff so he could rest up and recover from his mental and physical exhaustion (as MJ put it in the last dance). That no doubt played a huge factor into his success from 96-98.

The 2 year layoff is what is most impressive. To step away for that long and to come back and THREE peat is insane. Lebron never faced an all nba player on the way to all those finals when he was in the east which was a significantly worse conference than the west. Jordan never had a big man as good as AD either.

Jordan didn't comeback and have a 3 peat. He comeback and the Bulls got bounced in the 2nd round. MJ thought by switching back to his #23 jersey mid-series he'd play better.

LeBron never had an All-NBA teammate on both sides of the court like MJ did in 5 out of the 6 titles Chicago won.