76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[DroseReturnChi]

Simmons has gone real low to be faking mental health issues.

Indeed. You don't go from the baby Ben into mental heath issues in couple of days after team starts fining you before start of the regular season. It is really low and media needs to call him out continuously and honestly at some point league as well since it is not okay.

if nbpa says its mental it is mental. sixers team doctor are the most fraudulent ones you cant trust them with fultz.

[JN61]

Simmons has gone real low to be faking mental health issues.

Indeed. You don't go from the baby Ben into mental heath issues in couple of days after team starts fining you before start of the regular season. It is really low and media needs to call him out continuously and honestly at some point league as well since it is not okay.

if nbpa says its mental it is mental. sixers team doctor are the most fraudulent ones you cant trust them with fultz.

Since when players association are qualified to make decision if its mental health or not? Baby Ben just gets a paper from some sleezy bag ''expert'' and uses that as a proof with few thousand bellow the table and players' association complies. It's clear none of this mental health thing was an issue before he started to lose money. Stop defending person who exploits loopholes of the system for his personal gain in as serious as mental health.

[Ugly0598]

Just trade him for Irving already.

[kio80]

Simmons has gone real low to be faking mental health issues.

Indeed. You don't go from the baby Ben into mental heath issues in couple of days after team starts fining you before start of the regular season. It is really low and media needs to call him out continuously and honestly at some point league as well since it is not okay.

What makes you an expert on mental health issues?
Maybe Ben was having mental issues but he doesn’t want it to go public until Morey pushed him into a corner.
He has been an introvert which doesn’t surprise me if that’s his mentality at all.


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[JN61]

Simmons has gone real low to be faking mental health issues.

Indeed. You don't go from the baby Ben into mental heath issues in couple of days after team starts fining you before start of the regular season. It is really low and media needs to call him out continuously and honestly at some point league as well since it is not okay.

What makes you an expert on mental health issues?
Maybe Ben was having mental issues but he doesn’t want it to go public until Morey pushed him into a corner.
He has been an introvert which doesn’t surprise me if that’s his mentality at all.


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Evidence and the team report?

[Nuntius]

Exactly why I think, like you, that this is BS and totally a game by Simmons/Paul. They can literally claim ANY intervention or oversight of Ben's therapy is detrimental to his mental health and there's **** all the team or NBA can do about it.

I got slammed in the previous thread for suggesting the team has every right to make sure he's actually going to a legit therapist for the mental issues he's claiming and not some therapist who's just there to collect and easy paycheck while the two sit in a room for an hour on their phones or something like that.

If he's claiming mental health problems and he's actively working on that with a professional who's also trying to improve said mental health issue, then the team has every right to have some level of confirmation that what is claimed to be happening is actually taking place if the player wants to continue to collect his paycheck while undergoing treatment.

Otherwise it's not better than someone defrauding an employer with fake / overly-extended workmans comp. Employers regularly hire PI's to investigate employees when recovery from injury is taking an excessive amount of time. The Sixers deserve some level of confirmation that Ben is actively trying to improve his mental health.

Sixers ABSOLUTELY have the right to be kept up to date with how things are progressing. ZERO argument there. Although its funny that if its a psychiatrist of Ben's choosing, there's apparently a significant risk of the psychiatrist "just being there for the pay cheque", but we should have ZERO doubts about the Philly staff's motives, right?

He should be free to choose who he wants, but the team should be able to vet his choice and make sure he’s actually going to try and make progress in a good faith way. It’s their money on the line… they shouldn’t have to pay someone when they aren’t working for them.

You said that you've had mental health issues in the past so I have to ask. When you were seeing a mental health professional for that, did your employer vet them? Was your employer reading that mental health professional's reports and getting constant updates on your progress?

If the answer to the questions above is yes, how did that make you feel? Didn't you feel that it was an intrusion of your privacy? Wouldn't you prefer it if your workplace had a strong union that prevented your employer from intruding on what is an extremely sensitive subject?

At the end of the day, this is a discussion about worker's rights for me. It is about the right of a worker/employee keeping sensitive information, like mental health, private. It is about the employer not having any kind of oversight and unfettered access over their employee's medical information.

Do not for a second think that what happens in the NBA cannot happen elsewhere. If NBA organizations get to play fast and loose with worker's rights like that then what is stopping others from doing so? If the Sixers can freely violate Ben Simmons' medical privacy because we don't like Ben then what is stopping your boss from doing so? They can easily say that since NBA teams, huge organizations worth billions of dollars, can do it then he should also be allowed to do it. And in the workplaces that this stuff already happens, it only helps to legitimize their practices. It sets a horrible precedent that can harm people. Why allow it? Just because we believe that Ben is entitled?

Situations like this one affect a lot more than just the NBA. We should be cognizant of that fact.

Issues like this one do not only affect the NBA.

[hauntedcomputer]

Eh, how many dumb GMs actually think they are the only geniuses who can unlock the sexy secret of Ben Simmons' complete game?

I'd wager at least half of them. They'll trade. And lose.

And then lose their jobs when the bet flops. But they'll gain at least two-three extra years of employment off of "hope and potential."

heck, maybe they're not so dumb after all.

[kio80]

Indeed. You don't go from the baby Ben into mental heath issues in couple of days after team starts fining you before start of the regular season. It is really low and media needs to call him out continuously and honestly at some point league as well since it is not okay.

What makes you an expert on mental health issues?
Maybe Ben was having mental issues but he doesn’t want it to go public until Morey pushed him into a corner.
He has been an introvert which doesn’t surprise me if that’s his mentality at all.


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Evidence and the team report?

What evidence? What team report that had gone into explaining his mental health? Or are you simply just making things up?
Honestly I would rather trust a couple of “sleezy bag” experts than a random on a basketball forum who has absolutely nothing to back himself up


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[Buckets22]

The team owners should gather around a table in a dark, smoke filled room and make a pact to put these spoiled brats in their place.
Make an example of on Ben Simmons, fine his ass so much that he will be bankrupt. Send a message ffs

[jpengland]

Are these legit mental health issues? I don't know. But yes been signed off medically and the NBPA are supporting him.

What I do know? The Venn diagram of those that called him mentally weak, a 'mental midget' etc etc and those now claiming his mental health issues are fake is a perfect circle.

[hauntedcomputer]

The team owners should gather around a table in a dark, smoke filled room and make a pact to put these spoiled brats in their place.

1850 is calling and wants to make America great again.

Bunch of old (mostly) white sociopathic property owners cracking the whip on labor.

[Tripod]

Just a reminder that Ben DID say this after the Atl loss.

"The first thing I'm going to do is clear my mind and get my mental right," Simmons said in ESPN's report. "You got to be mentally tough. You can't take games for granted. Especially in the playoffs. Every game matters. Every possession matters"

When we see tennis champions or Olympic champions unable to compete due to mental health, it was accepted. But Ben is not given the same treatment. Maybe because he is a guy.

[Phreak50]

When we see tennis champions or Olympic champions unable to compete due to mental health, it was accepted. But Ben is not given the same treatment. Maybe because he is a guy.

No.

It's because he threw a childish tantrum, thinking it would be an easy out.

His employer called his bluff so he made it all up.

At this stage I doubt he'll play another game in this league ever again.

[SpreeChokeJob]

Just a reminder that Ben DID say this after the Atl loss.

"The first thing I'm going to do is clear my mind and get my mental right," Simmons said in ESPN's report. "You got to be mentally tough. You can't take games for granted. Especially in the playoffs. Every game matters. Every possession matters"

When we see tennis champions or Olympic champions unable to compete due to mental health, it was accepted. But Ben is not given the same treatment. Maybe because he is a guy.

This isn’t just one series. It’s been a pattern of behavior since he joined the league till this one point.

He has shown that he doesn’t want to take steps to improve his shooting at least on the team’s terms but on his own. What he has been shown has been consistent with his character, not his mental health.

[VDT]

Sixers ABSOLUTELY have the right to be kept up to date with how things are progressing. ZERO argument there. Although its funny that if its a psychiatrist of Ben's choosing, there's apparently a significant risk of the psychiatrist "just being there for the pay cheque", but we should have ZERO doubts about the Philly staff's motives, right?

He should be free to choose who he wants, but the team should be able to vet his choice and make sure he’s actually going to try and make progress in a good faith way. It’s their money on the line… they shouldn’t have to pay someone when they aren’t working for them.

You said that you've had mental health issues in the past so I have to ask. When you were seeing a mental health professional for that, did your employer vet them? Was your employer reading that mental health professional's reports and getting constant updates on your progress?

If the answer to the questions above is yes, how did that make you feel? Didn't you feel that it was an intrusion of your privacy? Wouldn't you prefer it if your workplace had a strong union that prevented your employer from intruding on what is an extremely sensitive subject?

At the end of the day, this is a discussion about worker's rights for me. It is about the right of a worker/employee keeping sensitive information, like mental health, private. It is about the employer not having any kind of oversight and unfettered access over their employee's medical information.

Do not for a second think that what happens in the NBA cannot happen elsewhere. If NBA organizations get to play fast and loose with worker's rights like that then what is stopping others from doing so? If the Sixers can freely violate Ben Simmons' medical privacy because we don't like Ben then what is stopping your boss from doing so? They can easily say that since NBA teams, huge organizations worth billions of dollars, can do it then he should also be allowed to do it. And in the workplaces that this stuff already happens, it only helps to legitimize their practices. It sets a horrible precedent that can harm people. Why allow it? Just because we believe that Ben is entitled?

Situations like this one affect a lot more than just the NBA. We should be cognizant of that fact.

Issues like this one do not only affect the NBA.

An employee can see any medical expert he wants to see and the employer has no right to know anything about. However, when the employee cannot fulfill his part of the contract for medical reasons, naturally, the employer needs to have some proof of it. I am pretty sure everyone understands that. In particular in the NBA, based on the CBA excerpt that has been quoted before, the team needs to be provided any required information about the treatmnt that the players receives and the timeline of his recovery. It's something that the players have agreed to and its not unreasonable imo.

Also, trying to compare NBA players with regular employees is quite disenginuous. They are getting all these money (unreasonably imo), doing something not essential for the society, not only because they are good at their jobs but because the league t=can monetize the entetainment that they provide. Trying to extrapolate the NBA player rights (and their ridiculous salaries) to normal workers doesnt make much sense. They are a modern day gladiators in the colloseum and they are paid handsomely to do their part. If they prefer a 9-5 job they are of course free to elect that, but i suspect none will.

[LAL1947]

The team owners should gather around a table in a dark, smoke filled room and make a pact to put these spoiled brats in their place.

1850 is calling and wants to make America great again.

Bunch of old (mostly) white sociopathic property owners cracking the whip on labor.

So cliche. The 1800s-1990s called, they want their definition of "elites" back. Once upon a time, for about 200 years in the entire history of the universe, the "elites" used to mainly be old white men... but that is no longer the case. The elites are now "global" as you should expect with "globalization", no? They belong to every race/religion, and are found everywhere in the big tech, big banks, big pharma, mainstream media, metals, energy and construction/real estate spaces. If you want to make references to "cracking the whip on labor", I'd argue (quite strongly) that white folks treat labor the most humanely in today's world. Well, at least all the white folks whose business plans don't begin and end with, "we'll outsource production to China". Would you like me to provide concrete examples of inhumane labor conditions in Asia, Africa, S America, the Middle East, etc?

[sikma42]

Eh, how many dumb GMs actually think they are the only geniuses who can unlock the sexy secret of Ben Simmons' complete game?

I'd wager at least half of them. They'll trade. And lose.

And then lose their jobs when the bet flops. But they'll gain at least two-three extra years of employment off of "hope and potential."

heck, maybe they're not so dumb after all.

Ben Simmons is an all star and top tier defensive player. Just getting the regular Ben Simmons is a great deal.


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[Texas Chuck]

What I do know? The Venn diagram of those that called him mentally weak, a 'mental midget' etc etc and those now claiming his mental health issues are fake is a perfect circle.

[Nuntius]

An employee can see any medical expert he wants to see and the employer has no right to know anything about.

In theory yes but in practice? The Sixers outright discredited the third party medical professional that Markelle Fultz used. Similarly, people (not the Sixers themselves so far, at least) are discrediting the NBPA's medical professional. The Sixers keep insisting that Ben uses their own medical team (just like they did with Fultz) despite the fact that the Sixers' medical team has been proved to be untrustworthy in those matters. So, yeah, the practice is different from the theory and that's an issue.

However, when the employee cannot fulfill his part of the contract for medical reasons, naturally, the employer needs to have some proof of it. I am pretty sure everyone understands that. In particular in the NBA, based on the CBA excerpt that has been quoted before, the team needs to be provided any required information about the treatmnt that the players receives and the timeline of his recovery. It's something that the players have agreed to and its not unreasonable imo.

The CBA excerpt in question was very murky when it comes to mental health related services, though. It is not clear what kind of information Simmons would have to provide the team, if any. We'll see how it goes in the following days. This definitely isn't the last we hear about this topic.

Also, trying to compare NBA players with regular employees is quite disenginuous. They are getting all these money (unreasonably imo), doing something not essential for the society, not only because they are good at their jobs but because the league t=can monetize the entetainment that they provide. Trying to extrapolate the NBA player rights (and their ridiculous salaries) to normal workers doesnt make much sense. They are a modern day gladiators in the colloseum and they are paid handsomely to do their part. If they prefer a 9-5 job they are of course free to elect that, but i suspect none will.

Is it actually disingenuous, though, or is it something that you just personally disagree with? You can definitely say that athletes do not provide anything essential for society but the same goes for a ton of other jobs, some of which are paid even more than athletes. A prime examples? NBA team owners. They provide a lot less than the players and make almost 10 times more. These are the same people that a lot of posters in this thread have been defending, by the way. That's rather **** up, if you ask me.

[Pointgod]

Well again I think you are missing part of the section, just a different part, here it is again since it got cut off (I added the letters and bolded the part that applies):



Why would the rest of the sentence only apply to (B) but not (A)? What is the point of (A) being there if the rest of the sentence doesn't apply?

If he sees a psychiatrist he clearly has to provide them with that information, at least that's how I read it.

It seems pretty obvious to me that he's withholding the information because this is part of his "plan" to get traded (i.e., be difficult) rather than any distrust of the Sixers' doctors, since again he's had many interactions with them including major surgeries. Like when he got knee surgery after the 2020 season I know for a fact that it was with a doctor in the Philly area with connections with the team. Heck one of the few times he's talked to the team it was to get the trainers to look at this back.

You bring about a good point about disclosure as per the CBA but the question is what are the Sixers actually getting out of this information? It’s not like Simmons is going to some psychiatrist at the strip mall, it’s through the NBAPA so not sure why they can’t go through other channels to get that info.

From Simmons’ point of view I could see he’s reluctant to disclose too much, especially with the risk of leaks. Not that Morey would leak it, but you never know what could happen,with an organization as large as the Sixers. And from Morey’s perspective his interest is just getting Simmons back on the court, but not sure if he’s going to get the answer to that from therapist notes alone. And I still assume there are still HIPPA rights regarding what can be disclosed. The problem is that neither side trusts the other one so any type of mutual resolution seems far away.

They get proof that he has a legit reason under the CBA to get paid millions of dollars despite not performing services.

If he doesn't want to disclose anything that's fine but if he wants to get paid under his contract, he has to disclose certain things under it. I'm not going to explain HIPPA here but trust me it is not relevant (and google it if you don't want to take my word for it).

And the bold is exactly the problem with the approach the Sixers are taking. Like I said, there’s no trust from either party and in normal circumstances would any team go to these lengths to disprove mental health issues? This isn’t something at even a psychiatrist could make a definitive statement on. It really depends on if Simmons is in the mental state to play. Other than “Simmons is making progress” I don’t know exactly what they expect from the therapist. They’re not going to go into details and there’s a good reason that players wouldn’t want teams to know about the specifics of their mental health issues.

I’m not American so I don’t know exactly how HIPPA works in all situations but I’ll take your word that it doesn’t apply here.