Tatum VS Luka

[Patsfan1081]

Luka is playing with a thigh bruise he suffered in Game 1 against the Suns. His leg was clearly dead tonight in the third quarter, including on offense. Here's Luka yesterday at practice:

Read on Twitter

He's toast. Mavs are toast. That's likely not healing in a week. Guy can't even walk right.

Series is over. Suns should attack him every time down the court. He's gimpy.

More info on the thigh bruise injury:
https://clutchpoints.com/mavs-news-luka-doncic-sparks-injury-concern-with-thigh-wrap-jason-kidd-reacts/

he cant play defense not bc he sucks like lebron but hes forced to spend energy on offense.
his ppg is historic goat level and add his playmaking he destroys what michael jordan did. not until a euro superteam is formed, he should conserve energy for offense.

This is a legendary post….

[Pelly24]

Luka pretty easily. We've yet to see Luka play in his ideal situation. If he were on the Celtics, they would easily win the championship with no series going past 6 games. Give him a 20-25 ppg scorer and a good defense and a tertiary playmaker, he wins the chip every year. Tatum is great and he's a top 10 player, but Luka has the potential to be a top 10-20 player ever.

[Primedeion]

Luka is so overrated. He's Rockets Harden with much worse efficiency and his defense is awful.

[MrGoat]

Luka is so overrated. He's Rockets Harden with much worse efficiency and his defense is awful.

Hi ballboy, whose alt is this?

[Ito]

Traeway

[GSP]

Luka is so overrated. He's Rockets Harden with much worse efficiency and his defense is awful.

If you say Rockets Harden then his defense is already awful so you dont need to add that extra

[Wagonband]

Luka is so overrated. He's Rockets Harden with much worse efficiency and his defense is awful.

If you say Rockets Harden then his defense is already awful so you dont need to add that extra

I mean that's a bad comparison. Rockets Harden was a top 2 MVP candidate for years. Tatum has yet to reach that level. So i really don't get the comparison.

Simple truth is that defence simply isn't as important as offence. Especially with guards. That's why guys like GP2 have a hard time to stay in the league despite being elite defenders before their offensive games evolve. Look at other defensive studs. Thybulle, MKG. Those guys were elite defenders but are barely in the league.

Elite offensive players are rarer and as such their skills are worth more. No matter how bad Harden or Luka's defense is, their offence will make them supermax players, while GP2, Thybulle and MKG are journeymen.

So just saying that Tatum is a better player than Luka because he has better defence and their offence is close is a flawed argument.

[User_friendly]

Luka is so overrated. He's Rockets Harden with much worse efficiency and his defense is awful.

If you say Rockets Harden then his defense is already awful so you dont need to add that extra

I mean that's a bad comparison. Rockets Harden was a top 2 MVP candidate for years. Tatum has yet to reach that level. So i really don't get the comparison.

Simple truth is that defence simply isn't as important as offence. Especially with guards. That's why guys like GP2 have a hard time to stay in the league despite being elite defenders before their offensive games evolve. Look at other defensive studs. Thybulle, MKG. Those guys were elite defenders but are barely in the league.

Elite offensive players are rarer and as such their skills are worth more. No matter how bad Harden or Luka's defense is, their offence will make them supermax players, while GP2, Thybulle and MKG are journeymen.

So just saying that Tatum is a better player than Luka because he has better defence and their offence is close is a flawed argument.

[Luke Skyowner]

Luka is so overrated. He's Rockets Harden with much worse efficiency and his defense is awful.

If you say Rockets Harden then his defense is already awful so you dont need to add that extra

I mean that's a bad comparison. Rockets Harden was a top 2 MVP candidate for years. Tatum has yet to reach that level. So i really don't get the comparison.

Simple truth is that defence simply isn't as important as offence. Especially with guards. That's why guys like GP2 have a hard time to stay in the league despite being elite defenders before their offensive games evolve. Look at other defensive studs. Thybulle, MKG. Those guys were elite defenders but are barely in the league.

Elite offensive players are rarer and as such their skills are worth more. No matter how bad Harden or Luka's defense is, their offence will make them supermax players, while GP2, Thybulle and MKG are journeymen.

So just saying that Tatum is a better player than Luka because he has better defence and their offence is close is a flawed argument.

this is ruthless man why do ballboy like that. He was so young and still searching his way in this life. Another one bites the dust. rip kid

[whatever_]

I don't understand this thread.

Anyone with 2 eyes would inmediately realize that Doncic belongs to a different dimension as a player.

[Dundalis]

Do people get that Luka is surrounded by a bunch of players who would not even start on a lot of NBA teams? Almost everyone he starts with have spent the majority of their NBA career as bench players. The sum of his supporting cast isn't much different from early first stint Lebron Cavs. Take Luka off the Mavs and the best player off every other playoff team remaining, and compare their rosters. The Mavs look more like a team that should be competing in the lottery for the number 1 pick. If he had a semblance of the supporting talent Tatum has, or even Harden had during his prime with the Rockets, it would be a completely different story.

He's always going to be an average defender (all the metrics say that's what he is), but if your supporting cast is so bad you have to have his usage rate be through the roof, his defense is gonna suffer. But he's an offensive hub of Lebron proportions. You can't watch him literally target amazing defenders like Kawhi, George, and now Mikal Bridges and dominate them like they're nobodies and be like that's normal.

[Sweet Meat Lew]

I think it's a case of flash vs substance. Tatum wins by default. I'm not convinced that Luka can be the best player on a contender. He lacks the ability and even the want to affect the game on the defensive end. His production comes at the expense of his teammates. Too many times he will take the ball up court and dribble his way into a shot while his teammates watch and the defense isn't forced to work. He passes only after he has exhausted every option to score the ball leaving his teammates in poor position to get a bucket. And then you gotta take his body into consideration...to show up out of shape at his age is inexcusable. He hasn't been blessed with the most athleticism in the world...gotta wonder how long his peak will last...or how many games will injuries keep him out of moving forward. The whole picture makes you question if he's more Harden/Westbrook and less Lebron/MJ tier of superstar.

[Joshyjess]

It's funny how Luka fans are the ones saying that defense doesn't matter, but rather it's only the offensive side of the ball that really determines who the better player is. To me the better player is the player who contributes the most on BOTH sides of the court. If a player only helps on offense, but gives up almost as many points on defense, it kind of negates his overall value (AKA - Trae Young). A player who gives you both (elite offense and elite defense) is obviously the better player. Now which of these two guys does that???

[Dundalis]

I think it's a case of flash vs substance. Tatum wins by default. I'm not convinced that Luka can be the best player on a contender. He lacks the ability and even the want to affect the game on the defensive end. His production comes at the expense of his teammates. Too many times he will take the ball up court and dribble his way into a shot while his teammates watch and the defense isn't forced to work. He passes only after he has exhausted every option to score the ball leaving his teammates in poor position to get a bucket. And then you gotta take his body into consideration...to show up out of shape at his age is inexcusable. He hasn't been blessed with the most athleticism in the world...gotta wonder how long his peak will last...or how many games will injuries keep him out of moving forward. The whole picture makes you question if he's more Harden/Westbrook and less Lebron/MJ tier of superstar.

You can't know anything about basketball, and look at the Mavs actual roster and think that a 4th seed in the west is anything other rather a ridiculous overachievement. Tatum's supporting cast pure talent wise is light years ahead of what Luka has. Which is a whole bunch of players who have spent the majority of their careers as bench players, either with the Mavs or other teams. There's probably not a true NBA starter on his whole team other than Brunson and Dinwiddie. Without Luka this team is much closer to fighting for a high lottery pick. Plus the Mavs have guys who came from other teams (the ones that actually had some talent). Most of them came to the Mavs as underperformers and their performance increased significantly. Dinwiddie is obviously one, but THJ was another. Despite the fact KP didn't fit, for the most part his underlying numbers actually improved. Not sure what his production is at the expense of, but there is much more evidence that it boosts his teammates performance than reduces.

Agree about the coming into the season out of shape part, that isn't really acceptable, but he doesn't and will never have the body shape of a basketball player, just like Jokic. That part is genetics. He needs to start looking after his body better, but his body is actually probably more likely to be able withstand trauma over time than your typical skinny ectomorph body type. And the simple fact is, unlike most players in the NBA, he will never have to rely on athleticism to be a great player.

[Dundalis]

It's funny how Luka fans are the ones saying that defense doesn't matter, but rather it's only the offensive side of the ball that really determines who the better player is. To me the better player is the player who contributes the most on BOTH sides of the court. If a player only helps on offense, but gives up almost as many points on defense, it kind of negates his overall value (AKA - Trae Young). A player who gives you both (elite offense and elite defense) is obviously the better player. Now which of these two guys does that???

This is a stupid argument. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird (I know Bird made all defensive teams, but no one actually thinks he was ever a great defender, he was a good team defender that was able to hide pretty well on great defensive teams), are considered top 5-10 players of all time. Plenty of players ranked below them had elite offense and elite defense which they absolutely lacked. No one that isn't a homer disputes their place on Mount Rushmore due to that however. Meaning no one actually thinks the player who is elite on both sides of the ball is automatically better than players who aren't.

The offense isn't in the same ball park. If Tatum had to carry a team as the primary ball handler against elite defenses, it's not gonna work. Doesn't mean he isn't an elite offensive player. It means his type of offense is straight up less valuable. Same as Magic, who if you look at statistically, wasn't putting up numbers like some others who were clearly inferior players. Being an offensive hub in every single situation for your team is easily the most valuable skillset there is in the game. I don't necessarily think the gap is humongous, but Luka isn't considered a fairly consensus top 10, and even top 5 in the game by many because people love white Euro's or the Dallas Mavericks. Even someone like Jokic was constantly hated on, and just recently started getting begrudging respect.

Unlike Trae Young, Luka is a player who you could hide, like Bird or Magic, if he played on a team that had high level defenders, but also high level offensive players that could actually take an offensive load off his shoulders. Hasn't had that at any point in his career.

[Joshyjess]

It's funny how Luka fans are the ones saying that defense doesn't matter, but rather it's only the offensive side of the ball that really determines who the better player is. To me the better player is the player who contributes the most on BOTH sides of the court. If a player only helps on offense, but gives up almost as many points on defense, it kind of negates his overall value (AKA - Trae Young). A player who gives you both (elite offense and elite defense) is obviously the better player. Now which of these two guys does that???

This is a stupid argument. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird (I know Bird made all defensive teams, but no one actually thinks he was ever a great defender, he was a good team defender that was able to hide pretty well on great defensive teams), are considered top 5-10 players of all time. Plenty of players ranked below them had elite offense and elite defense which they absolutely lacked. No one that isn't a homer disputes their place on Mount Rushmore due to that however. Meaning no one actually thinks the player who is elite on both sides of the ball is automatically better than players who aren't.

The offense isn't in the same ball park. If Tatum had to carry a team as the primary ball handler against elite defenses, it's not gonna work. Doesn't mean he isn't an elite offensive player. It means his type of offense is straight up less valuable. Same as Magic, who if you look at statistically, wasn't putting up numbers like some others who were clearly inferior players. Being an offensive hub in every single situation for your team is easily the most valuable skillset there is in the game. I don't necessarily think the gap is humongous, but Luka isn't considered a fairly consensus top 10, and even top 5 in the game by many because people love white Euro's or the Dallas Mavericks. Even someone like Jokic was constantly hated on, and just recently started getting begrudging respect.

Unlike Trae Young, Luka is a player who you could hide, like Bird or Magic, if he played on a team that had high level defenders, but also high level offensive players that could actually take an offensive load off his shoulders. Hasn't had that at any point in his career.

So the better player needs to be "hid" OK. And please don't EVER try to compare Luka to Bird. Bird was a top defensive player quite a few teams. (three times named to the all nba defensive 2nd team). Luka is NO Bird. That argument alone would get you banned on many sites. This argument is about Tatum and Luka, and as such we need to look at their complete games, not just one side of the court. Luka is amazing on offense and trash on defense. Tatum is amazing on offense and amazing on defense. That is the main point here. One player is one-sided, the other is an all-around player. Just imagine if Tatum ignored the defensive side of the ball as well, and only focuse on his offensive game.

[Dundalis]

It's funny how Luka fans are the ones saying that defense doesn't matter, but rather it's only the offensive side of the ball that really determines who the better player is. To me the better player is the player who contributes the most on BOTH sides of the court. If a player only helps on offense, but gives up almost as many points on defense, it kind of negates his overall value (AKA - Trae Young). A player who gives you both (elite offense and elite defense) is obviously the better player. Now which of these two guys does that???

This is a stupid argument. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird (I know Bird made all defensive teams, but no one actually thinks he was ever a great defender, he was a good team defender that was able to hide pretty well on great defensive teams), are considered top 5-10 players of all time. Plenty of players ranked below them had elite offense and elite defense which they absolutely lacked. No one that isn't a homer disputes their place on Mount Rushmore due to that however. Meaning no one actually thinks the player who is elite on both sides of the ball is automatically better than players who aren't.

The offense isn't in the same ball park. If Tatum had to carry a team as the primary ball handler against elite defenses, it's not gonna work. Doesn't mean he isn't an elite offensive player. It means his type of offense is straight up less valuable. Same as Magic, who if you look at statistically, wasn't putting up numbers like some others who were clearly inferior players. Being an offensive hub in every single situation for your team is easily the most valuable skillset there is in the game. I don't necessarily think the gap is humongous, but Luka isn't considered a fairly consensus top 10, and even top 5 in the game by many because people love white Euro's or the Dallas Mavericks. Even someone like Jokic was constantly hated on, and just recently started getting begrudging respect.

Unlike Trae Young, Luka is a player who you could hide, like Bird or Magic, if he played on a team that had high level defenders, but also high level offensive players that could actually take an offensive load off his shoulders. Hasn't had that at any point in his career.

So the better player needs to be "hid" OK. And please don't EVER try to compare Luka to Bird. Bird was a top defensive player quite a few teams. (three times named to the all nba defensive 2nd team). Luka is NO Bird. That argument alone would get you banned on many sites. This argument is about Tatum and Luka, and as such we need to look at their complete games, not just one side of the court. Luka is amazing on offense and trash on defense. Tatum is amazing on offense and amazing on defense. That is the main point here. One player is one-sided, the other is an all-around player. Just imagine if Tatum ignored the defensive side of the ball as well, and only focuse on his offensive game.

I didn't compare Luka to Bird. I compared Bird being ranked a top 10 all timer vs plenty of players who were elite on both sides of the ball and ranked lower, to a statement made by someone that if you are elite on both sides of the ball, then you are simply better than someone who isn't.

There is literally no defensive metric you can point to, in order to prove Luka is trash on defense. By almost every metric he is average, or even slightly above this season. In game 3 against the Suns, he had the best defensive rating on the Mavs after a bad defensive performance carrying the team on offense. If your argument is Luka is in the Trae Young category as far as his defense is concerned, then you are the one who needs to take your argument elsewhere where reason isn't present. The concept is that individual defense is much less important than individual offense is a fact, and therefore is about how much more valuable Luka's offensive skillset is, vs Tatum's defensive prowess. Even if the gap between their defense is greater than the gap between their offense, offense being much more valuable makes the comparison not remotely as simplistic as that.

[Zespetjest]

It's funny how Luka fans are the ones saying that defense doesn't matter, but rather it's only the offensive side of the ball that really determines who the better player is. To me the better player is the player who contributes the most on BOTH sides of the court. If a player only helps on offense, but gives up almost as many points on defense, it kind of negates his overall value (AKA - Trae Young). A player who gives you both (elite offense and elite defense) is obviously the better player. Now which of these two guys does that???

This is a stupid argument. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird (I know Bird made all defensive teams, but no one actually thinks he was ever a great defender, he was a good team defender that was able to hide pretty well on great defensive teams), are considered top 5-10 players of all time. Plenty of players ranked below them had elite offense and elite defense which they absolutely lacked. No one that isn't a homer disputes their place on Mount Rushmore due to that however. Meaning no one actually thinks the player who is elite on both sides of the ball is automatically better than players who aren't.

The offense isn't in the same ball park. If Tatum had to carry a team as the primary ball handler against elite defenses, it's not gonna work. Doesn't mean he isn't an elite offensive player. It means his type of offense is straight up less valuable. Same as Magic, who if you look at statistically, wasn't putting up numbers like some others who were clearly inferior players. Being an offensive hub in every single situation for your team is easily the most valuable skillset there is in the game. I don't necessarily think the gap is humongous, but Luka isn't considered a fairly consensus top 10, and even top 5 in the game by many because people love white Euro's or the Dallas Mavericks. Even someone like Jokic was constantly hated on, and just recently started getting begrudging respect.

Unlike Trae Young, Luka is a player who you could hide, like Bird or Magic, if he played on a team that had high level defenders, but also high level offensive players that could actually take an offensive load off his shoulders. Hasn't had that at any point in his career.

So the better player needs to be "hid" OK. And please don't EVER try to compare Luka to Bird. Bird was a top defensive player quite a few teams. (three times named to the all nba defensive 2nd team). Luka is NO Bird. That argument alone would get you banned on many sites. This argument is about Tatum and Luka, and as such we need to look at their complete games, not just one side of the court. Luka is amazing on offense and trash on defense. Tatum is amazing on offense and amazing on defense. That is the main point here. One player is one-sided, the other is an all-around player. Just imagine if Tatum ignored the defensive side of the ball as well, and only focuse on his offensive game.

Lol, double or trap Tatum whole game and we’ll see how amazing offensive player he is.

[facothomas22]

Jayson Tatum. Sure Luka is a better passer and scores more points,but his defense is poor. He can also be inefficent at times as well. Jayson Tatum will give any team great scoring,but will also play good to very good defense as well. Not a great passer,but he's clear getting better in that area. In fact, in the playoffs so far,he's averaging around 7 assist per game. I see Jayson Tatum as a clear top 5 player in the NBA becasue he's great on offfense and defense.Luka is more debatable due to his poor defense.

[Bob8]

I think it's a case of flash vs substance. Tatum wins by default. I'm not convinced that Luka can be the best player on a contender. He lacks the ability and even the want to affect the game on the defensive end. His production comes at the expense of his teammates. Too many times he will take the ball up court and dribble his way into a shot while his teammates watch and the defense isn't forced to work. He passes only after he has exhausted every option to score the ball leaving his teammates in poor position to get a bucket. And then you gotta take his body into consideration...to show up out of shape at his age is inexcusable. He hasn't been blessed with the most athleticism in the world...gotta wonder how long his peak will last...or how many games will injuries keep him out of moving forward. The whole picture makes you question if he's more Harden/Westbrook and less Lebron/MJ tier of superstar.

The truth is very different and very scary for opponents. Fat Euro with bad conditioning is top5 Nba player already, being only 23 years old. When he decides to do just step Jokic did, nobody is stopping him. And because he needs very little athleticism for his slow game, he can play, like he's playing now, till his 50th birthday. There's no top Nba player with that much room for improvement like Luka.

I completely understand that is difficult to watch fat, white Euro, to dominate Nba from Pg position.