FIBA World Cup 2023 (FIRST thread)

[ShootersShoot]

That is most likely true, but we have no way of knowing for sure. HB played 31 minutes in the loss against France and only scored 5 points with the worst +/- on the team. I'm pretty sure team usa would have loved to have tatum available. It very well could have changed the complexion of the game. Or it could not.

If greece places same with or without giannis, you still want to have the option of playing him. I'm just saying if its one of your best guys, you want the option, not that having them would necessarily drastically change the outcome for sure.

The problem is, Greece has gotten significantly worse since Giannis joined their team. He's certainly not the only reason, the federation's incompetence, and some bad coaches were also part of the problem. But, for example, when Giannis didn't play at the 2017 EuroBasket, Greece looked like a team and performed better than they did with Giannis. Then Giannis comes back, and again, they perform badly as a team.

So Greece changed things with a new well respected coach (one of the best in Europe), and he made the entire team revolve solely around Giannis and making sure he gets the ball over and over in optimum situations, and making the whole team operate just to set him up for good looks..........Giannis finally had a good tournament indivudually, and Greece didn;t get past the quarterfinals. Because the other players just didn't get involved. Everything else was guys being iso'd out, or Sloukas fighting with Giannis for the ball.

The example of Giannis is going on for years and years now. He started repping Greece in 2013, and played in 7 tournaments. They never once could simply put him on the floor and benefit from it. Hasn't happened yet. Again, it's FIBA, not the NBA. Just look at the EuroBasket 2022, Luka, Giannis, Markannen, Jokic, Sabonis - not a single one of them got even a bronze medal. Individual players can't dominate FIBA, even though NBA fans will never accept that reality.

Okay so I guess leave them off the national teams then?

Yea so unless the guy is playing well 2 games into the tournament, we should kick him off the team. Got it.
Greece should never let giannis and Slovenia should never let Luka play ever again. Got it.

Even if they are not playing well, their presence is good for the world stage as a whole. I never said nba stars should always dominate or win gold medals in fiba. Obviously thats not how basketball works.

"Let's leave off the nba star from the team because they arent going to medal anyway and he might not even play well" is probably the most illogical line of thinking I can think of in regards to building a team and here you are suggesting it.

Also tatum was second on the team in scoring in 2020 olympics and averaged over 63% TS. So yea i'd say his game translates and most likely he is on the next olympic team as well.

[Pachinko_]

I reckon both Giannis and the Greece were really good in the EuroBasket last summer.
Giannis averaged 29/9/5 on 57% shooting, these are ridiculous numbers for a player averaging 28 minutes. In my mind he was the best player of the tournament if you count in his defense.

Greece went 6-1. Of course 1 loss in FIBA is enough to call the whole campaign a failure, but 6-1 is still 6-1. The team was good.
They lost to a Germany that had Theis, Schroder and Wagner shooting 55% from three. If that was a series it's highly unlikely they would shoot 55% again. But there's no series in FIBA, it is what it is.

[Mirotic12]

I reckon both Giannis and the Greece were really good in the EuroBasket last summer.
Giannis averaged 29/9/5 on 57% shooting, these are ridiculous numbers for a player averaging 28 minutes. In my mind he was the best player of the tournament if you count in his defense.

Greece went 6-1. Of course 1 loss in FIBA is enough to call the whole campaign a failure, but 6-1 is still 6-1. The team was good.
They lost to a Germany that had Theis, Schroder and Wagner shooting 55% from three. If that was a series it's highly unlikely they would shoot 55% again. But there's no series in FIBA, it is what it is.

When you have Giannis, and several of Europe's best players, plus you have an elite EuroLeague coach. It's really a huge failure to not make it past the quarterfinals. The simple fact is that Greece has been noticeably worse as a national team with Giannis. There is no point arguing it. I'm not even criticizing Giannis. I said he had a good tournament. I'm just stating facts and shouldn't even have to argue it.

The results of Giannis, plus 4-5 of the best players in Europe, plus every other player on the team has played in NBA or EuroLeague, plus an elite EuroLeague coach = bounced at the quarterfinals is a colossal failure. It just is what it is. It's not even about Giannis. The point is, the idea that Tatum alone would take 2019 Team USA to the gold, just by his presence just does not hold up to scrutiny. It just doesn't.

Jokic couldn't even get a bronze medal at EuroBasket and he has good coaching, good systems, good teammates, etc. Couldn't even manage a bronze. So no, Tatum being added to a fairly average USA team was not bringing them the gold medal.

These players like Tatum, Giannis, Jokic can't have the same impact in FIBA that they do in the NBA, because of the rules. It's just that simple, and we really shouldn't even need to explain this or debate it in a basketball forum. The NBA has every single rule and reffing criteria designed to emphasize scoring and individual stars. FIBA has none of that in its rules or ref criteria. It's not to say they can't win gold medals or whatever, but even if they do, they will never have the same impact as they do in the NBA. It's not possible to have the same impact as in a league that is 100% geared to scoring and individual stars.

So yeah, if you take away or add Tatum to the Celtics in the NBA playoffs, that's a huge deal. But with Team USA, in the World Cup, it's actually not that big of a deal at all.

[ShootersShoot]

I reckon both Giannis and the Greece were really good in the EuroBasket last summer.
Giannis averaged 29/9/5 on 57% shooting, these are ridiculous numbers for a player averaging 28 minutes. In my mind he was the best player of the tournament if you count in his defense.

Greece went 6-1. Of course 1 loss in FIBA is enough to call the whole campaign a failure, but 6-1 is still 6-1. The team was good.
They lost to a Germany that had Theis, Schroder and Wagner shooting 55% from three. If that was a series it's highly unlikely they would shoot 55% again. But there's no series in FIBA, it is what it is.

Yes it is. When you have Giannis, and several of Europe's best players, plus you have an elite EuroLeague coach. It's really a huge failure to not make it past the quarterfinals. And you should know by comparison, when Greece lost one game in 2015, to Spain, by 2 points with Zisis, Spanoulis, Bourousis, etc., the media and social media public were calling for their heads and wanting to basically crucify them. Giannis was on the same team, and took virtually zero criticism of any kind.

Giannis has been treated with super soft baby gloves by comparison to most other Greek players. Other big Greek stars, like Giannakis, Galis, Papaloukas, Spanoulis would all have taken colossal criticism for that loss to Germany. Diamantidis was the only other Greek star that I can remember that the media went easy on, but nothing like they do with Giannis.

Previous stars were meant with public and media demands that they quit the team, after such similar results. I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm just stating facts. The simple fact is that Greece has been noticeably worse as a national team with Giannis. There is no point arguing it. I'm not even criticizing Giannis. I said he had a good tournament. I'm just stating facts and shouldn't even have to argue it.

The results of Giannis, plus 4-5 of the best players in Europe, plus every other player on the team has played in NBA or EuroLeague, plus an elite EuroLeague coach = bounced at the quarterfinals is a colossal failure. It just is what it is. It's not even about Giannis. The point is, the idea that Tatum alone would take a mediocre by FIBA standards team, like 2019 Team USA, to the gold, just by his presence just does not hold up to scrutiny. It just doesn't.

Freaking Jokic couldn't even get a bronze medal at EuroBasket and he has good coaching, good systems, good teammates, etc. Couldn't even manage a bronze. So no, Tatum being added to a fairly average USA team was not bringing them the gold medal.

These players like Tatum, Giannis, Jokic can't have the same impact in FIBA that they do in the NBA, because of the rules. It's just that simple, and we really shouldn't even need to explain this or debate it in a basketball forum. The NBA has every single rule and reffing criteria designed to emphasize scoring and individual stars. FIBA has none of that in its rules or ref criteria. It's not to say they can't win gold medals or whatever, but even if they do, they will never have the same impact as they do in the NBA. Never. It's not possible, to do have the same impact as a league that is 100% geared to scoring and individual stars.

So yeah, if you take away or add Tatum to the Celtics in the NBA playoffs, that's a huge deal. But with Team USA, in the World Cup, it's actually not that big of a deal at all.

Tatum was second on the 2020 olympic team in scoring while averaging over 63% TS and he is most likely going to be on the next olympic team as well. His skillset clearly translates in international play. Using a two game sample size to write him off on a team that clearly needed him is ridiculous.

They do not need a guy who is expected to be top 5 in minutes played for the team, and who is clearly a top 5 player on the team? Its simply illogical.

[Mirotic12]

Tatum was second on the 2020 olympic team in scoring while averaging over 63% TS and he is most likely going to be on the next olympic team as well. His skillset clearly translates in international play. Using a two game sample size to write him off on a team that clearly needed him is ridiculous.

He didn't play well at all in the Olympics either. If he was an international player, based on how he played at the Olympics, American NBA fans would say he could never play in the NBA.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Glad to see Walker Kessler is on the team, we'd be impossibly small without him

[ShootersShoot]

Yes it is. When you have Giannis, and several of Europe's best players, plus you have an elite EuroLeague coach. It's really a huge failure to not make it past the quarterfinals. And you should know by comparison, when Greece lost one game in 2015, to Spain, by 2 points with Zisis, Spanoulis, Bourousis, etc., the media and social media public were calling for their heads and wanting to basically crucify them. Giannis was on the same team, and took virtually zero criticism of any kind.

Giannis has been treated with super soft baby gloves by comparison to most other Greek players. Other big Greek stars, like Giannakis, Galis, Papaloukas, Spanoulis would all have taken colossal criticism for that loss to Germany. Diamantidis was the only other Greek star that I can remember that the media went easy on, but nothing like they do with Giannis.

Previous stars were meant with public and media demands that they quit the team, after such similar results. I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm just stating facts. The simple fact is that Greece has been noticeably worse as a national team with Giannis. There is no point arguing it. I'm not even criticizing Giannis. I said he had a good tournament. I'm just stating facts and shouldn't even have to argue it.

The results of Giannis, plus 4-5 of the best players in Europe, plus every other player on the team has played in NBA or EuroLeague, plus an elite EuroLeague coach = bounced at the quarterfinals is a colossal failure. It just is what it is. It's not even about Giannis. The point is, the idea that Tatum alone would take a mediocre by FIBA standards team, like 2019 Team USA, to the gold, just by his presence just does not hold up to scrutiny. It just doesn't.

Freaking Jokic couldn't even get a bronze medal at EuroBasket and he has good coaching, good systems, good teammates, etc. Couldn't even manage a bronze. So no, Tatum being added to a fairly average USA team was not bringing them the gold medal.

These players like Tatum, Giannis, Jokic can't have the same impact in FIBA that they do in the NBA, because of the rules. It's just that simple, and we really shouldn't even need to explain this or debate it in a basketball forum. The NBA has every single rule and reffing criteria designed to emphasize scoring and individual stars. FIBA has none of that in its rules or ref criteria. It's not to say they can't win gold medals or whatever, but even if they do, they will never have the same impact as they do in the NBA. Never. It's not possible, to do have the same impact as a league that is 100% geared to scoring and individual stars.

So yeah, if you take away or add Tatum to the Celtics in the NBA playoffs, that's a huge deal. But with Team USA, in the World Cup, it's actually not that big of a deal at all.

Tatum was second on the 2020 olympic team in scoring while averaging over 63% TS and he is most likely going to be on the next olympic team as well. His skillset clearly translates in international play. Using a two game sample size to write him off on a team that clearly needed him is ridiculous.

He didn't play well at all in the Olympics either. If he was an international player, based on how he played at the Olympics, American NBA fans would say he could never play in the NBA.

Second on the team in scoring, 63% TS, 44.7% from 3pt is playing poorly? Dude you are just talking out of your behind and getting outclassed logically here.

[Mirotic12]

Second on the team in scoring, 63% TS, 44.7% from 3pt is playing poorly? Dude you are just talking out of your behind and getting outclassed logically here.

I watched every USA game at the Olympics. Tatum was an average player most of the time. Sometimes he was good, and sometimes he was bad. If he was playing on another team, NBA fans would say he had zero ability to make an NBA team. If you really think Tatum played well at the Olympics, you couldn't have possibly watched that tournament.

Without Durant, they could only beat Iran and Czech Republic. Tatum was as average as could be for the most part.

And I like Tatum, he's one of the best NBA players. But he didn't do jack squat of anything for Team USA, in 2019, or in 2021.

[ShootersShoot]

Second on the team in scoring, 63% TS, 44.7% from 3pt is playing poorly? Dude you are just talking out of your behind and getting outclassed logically here.

I watched every USA game at the Olympics. Tatum was an average player most of the time. Sometimes he was good, and sometimes he was bad. If he was playing on another team, NBA fans would say he had zero ability to make an NBA team. If you really think Tatum played well at the Olympics, you couldn't have possibly watched that tournament.

Without Durant, they could only beat Iran and Czech Republic. Tatum was as average as could be for the most part.

And I like Tatum, he's one of the best NBA players. But he didn't do jack squat of anything for Team USA, in 2019, or in 2021.

Yea he didnt do jack squat in 2019 because he was injured...

He literally scored 19 points and 7 rebounds in the gold medal game against france playing like 21 minutes, in a freaking 5 point game. Cmon man...nba players are still very clearly helping their teams even if they arent medaling..Its such an asinine argument only rooted in your desire to be right to think otherwise.

When tatum got injured in 2019, the first thing I thought was that it would hurt the team. He would have helped them when they had a chance to medal.. bottom line.

2019 medalist Spain's two leading scorers were nba players..argentina's leading scorer was an nba player. Literally nba players making a huge impact. And you dont think removing a quality nba player from a roster makes a difference? Tatum could have caught fire like rubio or fournier did for their respective teams. He would have for sure gotten the minutes.

[Hellcrooner]

Sorry man, you didn't trigger me, I just thought conversation went this way? I just give you example of how USA isolates itself from learning and information for some reason, because progaganda told you everything foreign will forever be inferior? That stuff should have died with Berlin wall, its over.
Probably a bad example, but that is just something I really care, I just do not get how I am the person who cares that people and children gets killed everyday, and people still bend over folk who care for their toys over people lives. This is not political statement because this shouldn't be political at all.

Better example - in season tournament. It is funny how most countries have domestic sport in season tournaments in most sports, or if they don't have it, they still know how this works. But USA is so isolated from outside world, NBA introduced in season tournament and now everyone in US sports is SHOCKED and try to figure out what it is. Everyone is referring to Champions league. THis is not champions league, there are literally hundreds other cup tournaments you could compare this to, but guys over there have only heard of this Champions league thing, so they bring this up, it is rather sad.

I dont intend to *** on USA or Americans, I am just talking about this phenomena that I realized over the years. It is self isolation from outside world. This is why most flat earhers nowadays are from USA, because people have no clue there are like 88 major, and I mean super major space agencies, they only heard of NASA, so its easy to believe its a lie when you believe theres only one science source of it all.

I, for one, can appreciate the moral superiority of Europeans, who reside in such a place of enlightenment that black football players routinely have banana peels thrown at them to this day.

This isn't the place for your uneducated opinions on American politics, despite your insistence that your incoherent ramblings aren't political. Take it somewhere else.

i will stick to my moral superiority and feel baffled next time i watch some (Please Use More Appropriate Word) kill kindergarten children with his gun bought in a vending machine.

[Pachinko_]

When you have Giannis, and several of Europe's best players, plus you have an elite EuroLeague coach. It's really a huge failure to not make it past the quarterfinals.

Sure, but the team was still really good. If you could copy and paste the same team every year you would absolutely do that, and then eventually you would play against teams that dont shoot 55% from three, and then you'd win something.

[Mirotic12]

Sure, but the team was still really good. If you could copy and paste the same team every year you would absolutely do that, and then eventually you would play against teams that dont shoot 55% from three, and then you'd win something.

Not really. Greece chose not to play defense against Germany. They didn't just make a bunch of crazy threes or something. They were left wide open and unguarded on the vast majority of the shots. Itoudis seemed to make no adjustments. And Giannis was easily one of the worst offenders at the horrific defense.

He left Germany to bomb numerous wide open uncontested 3s from the man he was supposedly guarding. He got burned numerous times on defense, simply from a 100% total lack of any effort whatsoever, rather than from guys just torching him with crazy contested made 3s. You can get away with that zero defense play in the NBA, where everything is just 100% offense and scoring, but in FIBA, playing zero defense for an entire game will cause you to lose.

If you replay that game 100 times, Germany probably wins 80 of them, because Greece and Giannis chose not to even attempt to play any defense in the game. From what I remember, Larentzakis was the only Greek player that decided to even attempt to play defense. Considering how good some of Germany's shooters are, if you leave them wide open the whole game, then yeah, other than maybe 1 out of 5 games where they have a bad shooting night - Germany is winning those games.

You seem to be in some way implying it was a lucky shooting night that caused Germany to win the game, when the reality is that they won the game because Greece and Giannis played absolutely appalling, horrendous defense. And when the team's leader, Giannis, decides he's not going to even attempt to play defense for an entire game, yes, that does have a negative influence on team's the other players.

[Johnny Tomala]

Read on Twitter

Canada 18-man roster, still 6 people won't make it. No Wiggins, Sharpe, Mathurin, Nembhard.

[mediocrityrules]

The Australian squad won't have Ben Simmons who's already ruled himself out, but still has 11 NBA roster players in it.

Patty Mills, Matisse Thybulle, Joe Ingles, Jock Landale, Josh Green, Matthew Dellavedova, Dante Exum, Xavier Cooks, Jack White, Dyson Daniels and Josh Giddey

[Pachinko_]

Canada 15-man roster, still 3 people won't make it. No Wiggins, Sharpe, Mathurin, Nembhard.

Needs better bigs, but that's a good roster if they take the tournament seriously

[Johnny Tomala]

The Australian squad won't have Ben Simmons who's already ruled himself out, but still has 11 NBA roster players in it.

Patty Mills, Matisse Thybulle, Joe Ingles, Jock Landale, Josh Green, Matthew Dellavedova, Dante Exum, Xavier Cooks, Jack White, Dyson Daniels and Josh Giddey

Is he as good at basketball like Jack White on guitar?

[Pachinko_]

Greece chose not to play defense against Germany.

You say some strange things sometimes
I don't know what to answer to that

[Chuck Everett]

That Canada backcourt. Really having Jamal Murray out there is what gives me hope if I'm Canada.

[Mirotic12]

The Australian squad won't have Ben Simmons who's already ruled himself out, but still has 11 NBA roster players in it.

Patty Mills, Matisse Thybulle, Joe Ingles, Jock Landale, Josh Green, Matthew Dellavedova, Dante Exum, Xavier Cooks, Jack White, Dyson Daniels and Josh Giddey

It's pretty sad that Australia can't find a better guard than him. I mean really?

[Mirotic12]

You say some strange things sometimes I don't know what to answer to that

They either purposely chose not to play defense because they didn't want to put in the effort, or they are incapable of playing basic aceeptable high school level defense. Which sounds worse?

Greece clearly gave almost no defensive effort in that entire game. Larentzakis was trying, but the rest of the players were not. And Giannis was one of the worst in terms of effort. Just letting guys get whatever shot they wanted to almost every time he guarded them.

Maybe Itoudis bought into that just score more than them NBA mentality? Or maybe Greece's players, including Giannis, were just extremely tired and not nearly well conditioned enough?

Or maybe, just maybe, what is 99% the most likely explanation, they just didn't play any defense. Sometimes players and teams just fail to show up for games. Even for big games, and even for elimination games. That is why Greece lost that game. It wasn't because Germany went insane with making a bunch of crazy contested long range shots, that were lucky.

Those shots were mostly wide open shots, with good time and space to shoot. And for whatever reason, Greece, including Giannis, just kept letting Germany get good looks, even after it became obvious that they had shooters that are much too good to give those kinds of looks to, at least in a game where they are not having an off shooting night.