RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Iwasawitness]

I have never doubted that LeBron can guard centers better than Jordan or is a better playmaker than Jordan, but how did this benefit his teams ?. Jordan did more than enough for his teams to be successful, so why did he need to do anything else ?.

Well for one thing, it allowed LeBron to do more defensively. Being able to play a defensive floater time did wonders for his teams, especially in the first stint Cavaliers days. That’s always going to have more of an impact than what Jordan did. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Jordan is the best two way player ever, but he could never truly impact that end of the floor the way LeBron did. It isn’t just that he couldn’t guard centers… he could guard almost anyone in his prime. You couldn’t say the same about Jordan.

Better playmaker thing is self explanatory.

Jordan did do more than enough for his teams to win, but let me put it to you this way… LeBron won a championship on three different systems. I don’t think Jordan ever wins one outside of the one he was accustomed to. Jordan’s play style did have its faults. Sure, so did LeBron’s, but then again, those weaknesses were evened out by what Pippen, Grant/Rodman and the triangle brought to the table (whether people want to admit it or not).

Again, all you have is hypotheticals.

Only one thing that I said is a hypothetical, and it’s still based on what’s ultimately a true statement.

[michaelm]

No **** they weren't as good as 2017 when the got Durant. They literally added an MVP to the 73-9 team. No team in NBA history stands a chance against the KD Warriors. That type of team could take down the dream team. The 73-9 team was still one of the greatest teams in NBA history, as evident by their regular season record. The team was absurd and is probably the best (healthy) team to ever lose in the finals. Only dummies consider it a knock on LeBron's legacy for losing to any of those warriors teams in the finals.

I know it fashionable to downplay the 73-9 warriors if you hate LeBron, but let's be honest about it. That was an all time upset - especially considering Kevin Love was either out or completely worthless due to his concussion. That series for LeBron is the greatest performance in finals history when you consider the circumstances.

I could say the opposite, as you and I do about most things, that Lebron partisans exaggerate the quality of the 2016 GSW team to promote Lebron. I of course agree the 2017 GSW team indeed rates with a few other teams including the 72 win Bulls who importantly also won the title as among the greatest teams ever. They don't have the regular season record however, in fact won fewer than 70 games, but are historically the best play-offs team ever, not losing a game before they faced the Cavs, the 2016 team lost 4 or 5 play-off games prior to the finals, and only a miraculous late game flurry from game 6 Klay when all appeared lost stopped them losing in 6 against OKC. They were also far from healthy by the end of the finals that year after running the gauntlet that was the Western Conference play-offs, not the Cavs’ problem of course.

There isn’t any rule against beating a LeBron team with a better team btw.

I think, if anything, people in general tend to underrate that 2016 Warriors team.

While it is true that Curry was hurt in that series and they had other injuries, people tend to use these points to outright ignore that…

1: Cleveland were without Kevin Love for a good amount of this series due to a concussion.

2. Golden State still had significant matchup advantages as well as greater depth and overall better chemistry. They were still well above Cleveland as a team and there’s a reason they had a 3-1 series lead in the first place, with all three of those wins being in double figures. Hell, Cleveland’s one win just so happened to be in a game where they couldn’t miss against a team that just couldn’t hit anything. LeBron taking his game to another level and Irving dominating in game 5 are the main reasons the series turned around.

People tend to forget this, but that 2016 Cavaliers team had a lot of issues. They were inconsistent defensively, didn’t have good chemistry, were terrible whenever LeBron wasn’t playing, they lacked a consistent playmaker outside of him, they had almost no interior defense… and of course, there is the nonstop drama that plagued them throughout the season.

It’s inaccurate to say that they beat a 73 win team. People are right to say that the warriors were only a 73 win team on paper at that point. But they were still a much better team. And LeBron having a historically dominant finals series to propel his team to victory is always going to get a large amount of well deserved praise.

I have a different view, injuries are part of basketball and no excuse for losing, particularly if you construct a roster with injury prone players, such as Love and Kyrie or Bogut and Curry for that matter. The Cavs having beaten everyone who turned up to play them deserve the assumption they would have won regardless of circumstances, as the 2015 GSW team did although few LeBron/Cavs partisans did so while simultaneously calling the GSW team in the 2016 finals fully healthy and assessing them on the basis of their regular season record when they actually were fully healthy. They were reduced to playing Anderson Varejao the Cavs discarded 15th man in live minutes in the last games of the 2016 finals. Their problem, not that of the Cavs, but LeBron/Cavs fans can’t have it both ways, only imo of course, and I personally saw some sowing and reaping in them having to face the KD GSW team for the next 2 seasons.

[Iwasawitness]

I could say the opposite, as you and I do about most things, that Lebron partisans exaggerate the quality of the 2016 GSW team to promote Lebron. I of course agree the 2017 GSW team indeed rates with a few other teams including the 72 win Bulls who importantly also won the title as among the greatest teams ever. They don't have the regular season record however, in fact won fewer than 70 games, but are historically the best play-offs team ever, not losing a game before they faced the Cavs, the 2016 team lost 4 or 5 play-off games prior to the finals, and only a miraculous late game flurry from game 6 Klay when all appeared lost stopped them losing in 6 against OKC. They were also far from healthy by the end of the finals that year after running the gauntlet that was the Western Conference play-offs, not the Cavs’ problem of course.

There isn’t any rule against beating a LeBron team with a better team btw.

I think, if anything, people in general tend to underrate that 2016 Warriors team.

While it is true that Curry was hurt in that series and they had other injuries, people tend to use these points to outright ignore that…

1: Cleveland were without Kevin Love for a good amount of this series due to a concussion.

2. Golden State still had significant matchup advantages as well as greater depth and overall better chemistry. They were still well above Cleveland as a team and there’s a reason they had a 3-1 series lead in the first place, with all three of those wins being in double figures. Hell, Cleveland’s one win just so happened to be in a game where they couldn’t miss against a team that just couldn’t hit anything. LeBron taking his game to another level and Irving dominating in game 5 are the main reasons the series turned around.

People tend to forget this, but that 2016 Cavaliers team had a lot of issues. They were inconsistent defensively, didn’t have good chemistry, were terrible whenever LeBron wasn’t playing, they lacked a consistent playmaker outside of him, they had almost no interior defense… and of course, there is the nonstop drama that plagued them throughout the season.

It’s inaccurate to say that they beat a 73 win team. People are right to say that the warriors were only a 73 win team on paper at that point. But they were still a much better team. And LeBron having a historically dominant finals series to propel his team to victory is always going to get a large amount of well deserved praise.

I have a different view, injuries are part of basketball and no excuse for losing, particularly if you construct a roster with injury prone players, such as Love and Kyrie or Bogut and Curry for that matter. The Cavs having beaten everyone who turned up to play them deserve the assumption they would have won regardless of circumstances, as the 2015 GSW team did although few LeBron/Cavs partisans did so while simultaneously calling the GSW team in the 2016 finals fully healthy and assessing them on the basis of their regular season record when they actually were fully healthy. They were reduced to playing Anderson Varejao the Cavs discarded 15th man in live minutes in the last games of the 2016 finals. Their problem, not that of the Cavs, but LeBron/Cavs fans can’t have it both ways, only imo of course, and I personally saw some sowing and reaping in them having to face the KD GSW team for the next 2 seasons.

If any Cavs fan out there still thinks that 2016 Warriors team was fully healthy, they don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

[ScrantonBulls]

I think, if anything, people in general tend to underrate that 2016 Warriors team.

While it is true that Curry was hurt in that series and they had other injuries, people tend to use these points to outright ignore that…

1: Cleveland were without Kevin Love for a good amount of this series due to a concussion.

2. Golden State still had significant matchup advantages as well as greater depth and overall better chemistry. They were still well above Cleveland as a team and there’s a reason they had a 3-1 series lead in the first place, with all three of those wins being in double figures. Hell, Cleveland’s one win just so happened to be in a game where they couldn’t miss against a team that just couldn’t hit anything. LeBron taking his game to another level and Irving dominating in game 5 are the main reasons the series turned around.

People tend to forget this, but that 2016 Cavaliers team had a lot of issues. They were inconsistent defensively, didn’t have good chemistry, were terrible whenever LeBron wasn’t playing, they lacked a consistent playmaker outside of him, they had almost no interior defense… and of course, there is the nonstop drama that plagued them throughout the season.

It’s inaccurate to say that they beat a 73 win team. People are right to say that the warriors were only a 73 win team on paper at that point. But they were still a much better team. And LeBron having a historically dominant finals series to propel his team to victory is always going to get a large amount of well deserved praise.

I have a different view, injuries are part of basketball and no excuse for losing, particularly if you construct a roster with injury prone players, such as Love and Kyrie or Bogut and Curry for that matter. The Cavs having beaten everyone who turned up to play them deserve the assumption they would have won regardless of circumstances, as the 2015 GSW team did although few LeBron/Cavs partisans did so while simultaneously calling the GSW team in the 2016 finals fully healthy and assessing them on the basis of their regular season record when they actually were fully healthy. They were reduced to playing Anderson Varejao the Cavs discarded 15th man in live minutes in the last games of the 2016 finals. Their problem, not that of the Cavs, but LeBron/Cavs fans can’t have it both ways, only imo of course, and I personally saw some sowing and reaping in them having to face the KD GSW team for the next 2 seasons.

If any Cavs fan out there still thinks that 2016 Warriors team was fully healthy, they don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

Yes, but neither team was. Kevin Love was either out or completely ineffective due to his concussion. I'd go as far as saying he was a negative due to his concussion. I don't think either team had a significant advantage due to injuries.

[michaelm]

Double.

[michaelm]

Well for one thing, it allowed LeBron to do more defensively. Being able to play a defensive floater time did wonders for his teams, especially in the first stint Cavaliers days. That’s always going to have more of an impact than what Jordan did. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Jordan is the best two way player ever, but he could never truly impact that end of the floor the way LeBron did. It isn’t just that he couldn’t guard centers… he could guard almost anyone in his prime. You couldn’t say the same about Jordan.

Better playmaker thing is self explanatory.

Jordan did do more than enough for his teams to win, but let me put it to you this way… LeBron won a championship on three different systems. I don’t think Jordan ever wins one outside of the one he was accustomed to. Jordan’s play style did have its faults. Sure, so did LeBron’s, but then again, those weaknesses were evened out by what Pippen, Grant/Rodman and the triangle brought to the table (whether people want to admit it or not).

Again, all you have is hypotheticals.

Only one thing that I said is a hypothetical, and it’s still based on what’s ultimately a true statement.

You have absolutely no way of knowing whether LeBron would have accepted coaching even from Phil Jackson, would have agreed to play in the triangle himself, or that he would have been complemented by Grant and Rodman as well as Jordan was, among other things. On the other hand we know Jordan could because he did.

[michaelm]

I think, if anything, people in general tend to underrate that 2016 Warriors team.

While it is true that Curry was hurt in that series and they had other injuries, people tend to use these points to outright ignore that…

1: Cleveland were without Kevin Love for a good amount of this series due to a concussion.

2. Golden State still had significant matchup advantages as well as greater depth and overall better chemistry. They were still well above Cleveland as a team and there’s a reason they had a 3-1 series lead in the first place, with all three of those wins being in double figures. Hell, Cleveland’s one win just so happened to be in a game where they couldn’t miss against a team that just couldn’t hit anything. LeBron taking his game to another level and Irving dominating in game 5 are the main reasons the series turned around.

People tend to forget this, but that 2016 Cavaliers team had a lot of issues. They were inconsistent defensively, didn’t have good chemistry, were terrible whenever LeBron wasn’t playing, they lacked a consistent playmaker outside of him, they had almost no interior defense… and of course, there is the nonstop drama that plagued them throughout the season.

It’s inaccurate to say that they beat a 73 win team. People are right to say that the warriors were only a 73 win team on paper at that point. But they were still a much better team. And LeBron having a historically dominant finals series to propel his team to victory is always going to get a large amount of well deserved praise.

I have a different view, injuries are part of basketball and no excuse for losing, particularly if you construct a roster with injury prone players, such as Love and Kyrie or Bogut and Curry for that matter. The Cavs having beaten everyone who turned up to play them deserve the assumption they would have won regardless of circumstances, as the 2015 GSW team did although few LeBron/Cavs partisans did so while simultaneously calling the GSW team in the 2016 finals fully healthy and assessing them on the basis of their regular season record when they actually were fully healthy. They were reduced to playing Anderson Varejao the Cavs discarded 15th man in live minutes in the last games of the 2016 finals. Their problem, not that of the Cavs, but LeBron/Cavs fans can’t have it both ways, only imo of course, and I personally saw some sowing and reaping in them having to face the KD GSW team for the next 2 seasons.

If any Cavs fan out there still thinks that 2016 Warriors team was fully healthy, they don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

Your comrade in arms Scranton Bulls just classified them as being so on this very thread.

My points were in any case that they weren’t the 73 win regular season team by the time they got to the finals, although still a good team over which the Cavs were worthy winners, and that the much better 2017 team won 67 rather than 73 regular season games having gotten their priorities right.

[ScrantonBulls]

Again, all you have is hypotheticals.

Only one thing that I said is a hypothetical, and it’s still based on what’s ultimately a true statement.

You have absolutely no way of knowing whether LeBron would have accepted coaching even from Phil Jackson, would have agreed to play in the triangle himself, or that he would have been complemented by Grant and Rodman as well as Jordan was, among other things. On the other hand we know Jordan could because he did.

You know, you kind of have to use hypotheticals sometimes, especially when comparing players in different situations (different teams, different competition, different era) which is basically every player comparison. It's very helpful. Or we can ditch any hypotheticals and context and just crown Russell as the GOAT because of his ring count.

[michaelm]

Empty blanket statements and player opinions are what you call stats and evidence?

While unproven and unprovable individual statistics devised to supposedly measure a player’s contribution to winning apparently mean more than actually winning.

And again if titles are unimportant what was the aim of everything LeBron has done for the last 15 years ?.

Who said titles are unimportant?

An entire recent thread on which you were quite active, often supporting the OP, while calling out others for having agendas.

[michaelm]

Only one thing that I said is a hypothetical, and it’s still based on what’s ultimately a true statement.

You have absolutely no way of knowing whether LeBron would have accepted coaching even from Phil Jackson, would have agreed to play in the triangle himself, or that he would have been complemented by Grant and Rodman as well as Jordan was, among other things. On the other hand we know Jordan could because he did.

QED
You know, you kind of have to use hypotheticals sometimes, especially when comparing players in different situations (different teams, different competition, different era) which is basically every player comparison. It's very helpful. Or we can ditch any hypotheticals and context and just crown Russell as the GOAT because of his ring count.

QED in regard to hypotheticals.

There is imo no accurate way of assessing Russell at this remove in time, although I tried to do so as much as I could. I personally don’t rate him with Jordan and LeBron, but do ask the question as to what more people think he could have or should have done in the career he actually had ?.

[SlimShady83]

Wonder what Iverson would average today?

Watch on YouTube

[Homer38]

Wonder what Iverson would average today?

Watch on YouTube

He would need like 37-38 FGA per game to have 43.....

[MavsDirk41]

My case for LeBron has always been the following: I truly believe that at the peak of his career, he was a better basketball player than Jordan. I believe he was a better all around player. I always felt LeBron did more with less. And on top of it, I’m far more impressed with him beating legitimately better teams, in some cases doing so in outright carryjobs, compared to Jordan who rarely had that issue to begin with.

I rarely ever involve longevity in it. In most cases, I acknowledge that LeBron has been padding his stats for at least three years now. If there’s one thing I can say I value the longevity aspect for, it’s that if I’m starting a franchise and I have to pick between two players who are very close in talent, I’m picking the one that is elite for longer. To me, LeBron’s longevity accomplishments are more so a cherry on top kind of thing for me, something to add icing to the cake. Sure, longevity does matter, but I tend not to dwell on it.

I have never doubted that LeBron can guard centers better than Jordan or is a better playmaker than Jordan, but how did this benefit his teams ?. Jordan did more than enough for his teams to be successful, so why did he need to do anything else ?.

Well for one thing, it allowed LeBron to do more defensively. Being able to play a defensive floater time did wonders for his teams, especially in the first stint Cavaliers days. That’s always going to have more of an impact than what Jordan did. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Jordan is the best two way player ever, but he could never truly impact that end of the floor the way LeBron did. It isn’t just that he couldn’t guard centers… he could guard almost anyone in his prime. You couldn’t say the same about Jordan.

Better playmaker thing is self explanatory.

Jordan did do more than enough for his teams to win, but let me put it to you this way… LeBron won a championship on three different systems. I don’t think Jordan ever wins one outside of the one he was accustomed to. Jordan’s play style did have its faults. Sure, so did LeBron’s, but then again, those weaknesses were evened out by what Pippen, Grant/Rodman and the triangle brought to the table (whether people want to admit it or not).

James won in 3 different systems but he also has played with more individual talent and had more of a say in who he played with. He teamed up with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis. Those players were already established all star talent. Pippen and Grant developed playing with Jordan. So did Kukoc. Rodman was 34 and nobody wanted him. Jordan was also still playing defense at 40 unlike James. Jordan also built a dynasty in Chicago. What dynasty has James ever been a part of?

[MavsDirk41]

Wonder what Iverson would average today?

Watch on YouTube

He would need like 37-38 FGA per game to have 43.....

He would have an easier time scoring in todays nba for sure.

[ScrantonBulls]

I have never doubted that LeBron can guard centers better than Jordan or is a better playmaker than Jordan, but how did this benefit his teams ?. Jordan did more than enough for his teams to be successful, so why did he need to do anything else ?.

Well for one thing, it allowed LeBron to do more defensively. Being able to play a defensive floater time did wonders for his teams, especially in the first stint Cavaliers days. That’s always going to have more of an impact than what Jordan did. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Jordan is the best two way player ever, but he could never truly impact that end of the floor the way LeBron did. It isn’t just that he couldn’t guard centers… he could guard almost anyone in his prime. You couldn’t say the same about Jordan.

Better playmaker thing is self explanatory.

Jordan did do more than enough for his teams to win, but let me put it to you this way… LeBron won a championship on three different systems. I don’t think Jordan ever wins one outside of the one he was accustomed to. Jordan’s play style did have its faults. Sure, so did LeBron’s, but then again, those weaknesses were evened out by what Pippen, Grant/Rodman and the triangle brought to the table (whether people want to admit it or not).

James won in 3 different systems but he also has played with more individual talent and had more of a say in who he played with. He teamed up with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis. Those players were already established all star talent. Pippen and Grant developed playing with Jordan. So did Kukoc. Rodman was 34 and nobody wanted him. Jordan was also still playing defense at 40 unlike James. Jordan also built a dynasty in Chicago. What dynasty has James ever been a part of?

"Jordan built a dynasty". Now we're giving Jordan credit for the front office making great moves and putting some of the greatest supporting casts in history around him. Jordan mythologists are absolutely hilarious. Is there anything they won't give Jordan credit for? I'm waiting for him to get credit for the 93-94 team going 55-27 without him.

Don't let anybody ever tell you that the Air Jordan marketing campaign wasn't one of the greatest marketing campaigns ever. This is why it's difficult to debate with hardcore Jordan fans. You're dealing with a cult.

[MavsDirk41]

Well for one thing, it allowed LeBron to do more defensively. Being able to play a defensive floater time did wonders for his teams, especially in the first stint Cavaliers days. That’s always going to have more of an impact than what Jordan did. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Jordan is the best two way player ever, but he could never truly impact that end of the floor the way LeBron did. It isn’t just that he couldn’t guard centers… he could guard almost anyone in his prime. You couldn’t say the same about Jordan.

Better playmaker thing is self explanatory.

Jordan did do more than enough for his teams to win, but let me put it to you this way… LeBron won a championship on three different systems. I don’t think Jordan ever wins one outside of the one he was accustomed to. Jordan’s play style did have its faults. Sure, so did LeBron’s, but then again, those weaknesses were evened out by what Pippen, Grant/Rodman and the triangle brought to the table (whether people want to admit it or not).

James won in 3 different systems but he also has played with more individual talent and had more of a say in who he played with. He teamed up with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis. Those players were already established all star talent. Pippen and Grant developed playing with Jordan. So did Kukoc. Rodman was 34 and nobody wanted him. Jordan was also still playing defense at 40 unlike James. Jordan also built a dynasty in Chicago. What dynasty has James ever been a part of?

"Jordan built a dynasty". Now we're giving Jordan credit for the front office making great moves and putting some of the greatest supporting casts in history around him. Jordan mythologists are absolutely hilarious. Is there anything they won't give Jordan credit for? I'm waiting for him to get credit for the 93-94 team going 55-27 without him.

Don't let anybody ever tell you that the Air Jordan marketing campaign wasn't one of the greatest marketing campaigns ever. This is why it's difficult to debate with hardcore Jordan fans. You're dealing with a cult.

Dont get butthurt cause the guy won 2 3 peats and did help create one of the nba’s greatest dynasties. And again, your hero has an agency who pays talking heads in the media to promote him 24/7 and colludes with players and organizations to get players traded to his teams. Do better Taj FTW.

[Homer38]

Wonder what Iverson would average today?

Watch on YouTube

He would need like 37-38 FGA per game to have 43.....

He would have an easier time scoring in todays nba for sure.

sure but not 43 points per game....

[MavsDirk41]

He would need like 37-38 FGA per game to have 43.....

He would have an easier time scoring in todays nba for sure.

sure but not 43 points per game....

No argument there

[ScrantonBulls]

James won in 3 different systems but he also has played with more individual talent and had more of a say in who he played with. He teamed up with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis. Those players were already established all star talent. Pippen and Grant developed playing with Jordan. So did Kukoc. Rodman was 34 and nobody wanted him. Jordan was also still playing defense at 40 unlike James. Jordan also built a dynasty in Chicago. What dynasty has James ever been a part of?

"Jordan built a dynasty". Now we're giving Jordan credit for the front office making great moves and putting some of the greatest supporting casts in history around him. Jordan mythologists are absolutely hilarious. Is there anything they won't give Jordan credit for? I'm waiting for him to get credit for the 93-94 team going 55-27 without him.

Don't let anybody ever tell you that the Air Jordan marketing campaign wasn't one of the greatest marketing campaigns ever. This is why it's difficult to debate with hardcore Jordan fans. You're dealing with a cult.

Dont get butthurt cause the guy won 2 3 peats and did help create one of the nba’s greatest dynasties. And again, your hero has an agency who pays talking heads in the media to promote him 24/7 and colludes with players and organizations to get players traded to his teams. Do better Taj FTW.

Come on son, can I hear how MJ helped the 93-94 team win 55 games without him? Surely you can reach into your MJ mythology bag and bring out some type of intangible or wisdom he bestowed upon that team.

[MavsDirk41]

"Jordan built a dynasty". Now we're giving Jordan credit for the front office making great moves and putting some of the greatest supporting casts in history around him. Jordan mythologists are absolutely hilarious. Is there anything they won't give Jordan credit for? I'm waiting for him to get credit for the 93-94 team going 55-27 without him.

Don't let anybody ever tell you that the Air Jordan marketing campaign wasn't one of the greatest marketing campaigns ever. This is why it's difficult to debate with hardcore Jordan fans. You're dealing with a cult.

Dont get butthurt cause the guy won 2 3 peats and did help create one of the nba’s greatest dynasties. And again, your hero has an agency who pays talking heads in the media to promote him 24/7 and colludes with players and organizations to get players traded to his teams. Do better Taj FTW.

Come on son, can I hear how MJ helped the 93-94 team win 55 games without him? Surely you can reach into your MJ mythology bag and bring out some type of intangible or wisdom he bestowed upon that team.

Your doing a great job Taj