2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[ThePersianFreak]

Curry keeps playing like he has the last 3 games and they win 70 games him or Durant have a chance.

no, they will never win an mvp if they are in the same team.

Nonsense, they said the same thing about Lebron, and he won two MVP's after joining the Heat. They are probably not winning this year, but the voters will give them a chance next year.

Even this year if Durant or Curry miss a lot of games because of injury, the other one has a chance to be the MVP. On those Heat teams D-Wade started declining badly after 2010-2011 and regularly missed games due to injuries while LeBron carried them the whole season. Plus LeBron had the whole "Best Player on The Planet" thing going on and in 2012-2013 he had one of the best RSs of all time, so they kinda had to give it to the guy.

But if KD and Curry stay healthy and have similar stats, no way either of them are gonna win it (Specially this year), So it really depends on the situation.

[Gibson22]

Anthony Davis has no case over Blake Griffin as a PF this year individually or in the MVP race. Blake's metrics are better, defense has been much better and he himself is putting up 23/11/4.5/1.5 spg PER 36 offensively. Combine that with the best record in the league and Davis' team being 0-9 or whatever and yea, no case.

People still think blake griffin is a name to be brought in any conversation

It doesn't matter what people "think". The data combined with team record place him above Davis this year and he's having a better year as a PF. Although if you're concerned with what official rankings are in media...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.cgi

Blake 6th in MVP odds/rank, Davis not top 10.

http://www.nba.com/article/2016/11/11/mvp-ladder-week-1-2016-17-russell-westbrook-leads-way-begin

Blake 4th, Davis not top 10.


CBS also has Blake way ahead of Davis.

I'm sorry man, I've watched and informed myself too little about the clippers, didn't notice how good blake is playing, and I even was a bit disrespectful, I was wrong


Anyway, do you guys think that really, as the bbref mvp award tracker says,lebron james is 3rd right now? I don't think that, if the nba ended today, the league would give the second (or first) place at harden with his team record. I think it would be first cp3 or lebron, third harden. But obviously they are just getting started

[Triples333]

People still think blake griffin is a name to be brought in any conversation

It doesn't matter what people "think". The data combined with team record place him above Davis this year and he's having a better year as a PF. Although if you're concerned with what official rankings are in media...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.cgi

Blake 6th in MVP odds/rank, Davis not top 10.

http://www.nba.com/article/2016/11/11/mvp-ladder-week-1-2016-17-russell-westbrook-leads-way-begin

Blake 4th, Davis not top 10.


CBS also has Blake way ahead of Davis.

I'm sorry man, I've watched and informed myself too little about the clippers, didn't notice how good blake is playing, and I even was a bit disrespectful, I was wrong


Anyway, do you guys think that really, as the bbref mvp award tracker says,lebron james is 3rd right now? I don't think that, if the nba ended today, the league would give the second (or first) place at harden with his team record. I think it would be first cp3 or lebron, third harden. But obviously they are just getting started

Why Lebron? There are no shortage of players putting up better production than him. Simply best player on a top team motto?

[OkcSinceSGA]

People still think blake griffin is a name to be brought in any conversation

It doesn't matter what people "think". The data combined with team record place him above Davis this year and he's having a better year as a PF. Although if you're concerned with what official rankings are in media...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.cgi

Blake 6th in MVP odds/rank, Davis not top 10.

http://www.nba.com/article/2016/11/11/mvp-ladder-week-1-2016-17-russell-westbrook-leads-way-begin

Blake 4th, Davis not top 10.


CBS also has Blake way ahead of Davis.

I'm sorry man, I've watched and informed myself too little about the clippers, didn't notice how good blake is playing, and I even was a bit disrespectful, I was wrong


Anyway, do you guys think that really, as the bbref mvp award tracker says,lebron james is 3rd right now? I don't think that, if the nba ended today, the league would give the second (or first) place at harden with his team record. I think it would be first cp3 or lebron, third harden. But obviously they are just getting started

All good man, we are all guilty of that sometimes. What's amazing in regards to this comparison is defense. The average fan would consider Davis the far superior defender despite him actually being a net negative defender over the years, and would consider Blake a terrible defender when in actuality he's having an elite defensive year. According to the limited defensive metrics we have Blake is actually a top 10 DPOY worthy player so far this year. He's been incredibly good on defense and yet PER 36 still puts up 22.5, 11, 4, 1.5 steals.

As for Lebron vs say Harden.. it's really tough. Harden individually is doing better but team success HAS to be a factor IMO. Also I don't think by season end individual play between them will be as wide of a gap (Lebron has started off slow, Harden red hot) and if there is say a 10-15 win gap between the teams, Lebron will get the edge.

[ItsThatEasy]

LeBron and Blake are getting disrespected like no other in this thread.

LeBron is averaging a triple double for a #1 conference team and is still being left out of peoples top 3 somehow.

Blake is playing amazing team basketball on both ends of the floor and building his teams leads so high so early he doesn't need to play too many 2nd half minutes.

Raw numbers are cool and I love Harden but at some point actual winning basketball has to matter.

[Triples333]

LeBron and Blake are getting disrespected like no other in this thread.

LeBron is averaging a triple double for a #1 conference team and is still being left out of peoples top 3 somehow.

Blake is playing amazing team basketball on both ends of the floor and building his teams leads so high so early he doesn't need to play too many 2nd half minutes.

Raw numbers are cool and I love Harden but at some point actual winning basketball has to matter.

A) Lebron is not averaging a triple-double.

B) Overall it's the 2nd worst regular season production of his career to only his rookie year. Lowest PPG, lowest PER (not remotely close to the top 10 in the NBA here), mediocre TS%, etc.

C) CP3 has been setting a (admittedly unsustainable) career pace and has clearly been the best player on his team. Why would Blake be top-3?

D) You say "raw numbers are cool but winning actually has to matter" concerning Harden. But his team does in fact still have a winning record and his advanced metrics are through the roof (currently shattering the all time Assist% mark, legendarily high PER/WS/OBPM/RPM, etc). Seems to me the raw numbers are the sole reason why you're salivating over Bron's performance (other than his teams success... which we all expected and he has plenty of help with).

[OkcSinceSGA]

LeBron and Blake are getting disrespected like no other in this thread.

LeBron is averaging a triple double for a #1 conference team and is still being left out of peoples top 3 somehow.

Blake is playing amazing team basketball on both ends of the floor and building his teams leads so high so early he doesn't need to play too many 2nd half minutes.

Raw numbers are cool and I love Harden but at some point actual winning basketball has to matter.

A) Lebron is not averaging a triple-double.

B) Overall it's the 2nd worst regular season production of his career to only his rookie year. Lowest PPG, lowest PER (not remotely close to the top 10 in the NBA here), mediocre TS%, etc.

C) CP3 has been setting a (admittedly unsustainable) career pace and has clearly been the best player on his team. Why would Blake be top-3?

D) You say "raw numbers are cool but winning actually has to matter" concerning Harden. But his team does in fact still have a winning record and his advanced metrics are through the roof (currently shattering the all time Assist% mark, legendarily high PER/WS/OBPM/RPM, etc). Seems to me the raw numbers are the sole reason why you're salivating over Bron's performance (other than his teams success... which we all expected and he has plenty of help with).

CP3 has been better than Blake but that doesn't mean Blake doesn't have his own case. As I mentioned earlier Blake PER 36 is 22.5 ppg, 11 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 spg with outstanding defense. Those are MVP worthy numbers. He's not ahead of Harden, James, CP3 etc most likely but he's in top 5 discussion and surely ahead of Anthony Davis.

[Triples333]

LeBron and Blake are getting disrespected like no other in this thread.

LeBron is averaging a triple double for a #1 conference team and is still being left out of peoples top 3 somehow.

Blake is playing amazing team basketball on both ends of the floor and building his teams leads so high so early he doesn't need to play too many 2nd half minutes.

Raw numbers are cool and I love Harden but at some point actual winning basketball has to matter.

A) Lebron is not averaging a triple-double.

B) Overall it's the 2nd worst regular season production of his career to only his rookie year. Lowest PPG, lowest PER (not remotely close to the top 10 in the NBA here), mediocre TS%, etc.

C) CP3 has been setting a (admittedly unsustainable) career pace and has clearly been the best player on his team. Why would Blake be top-3?

D) You say "raw numbers are cool but winning actually has to matter" concerning Harden. But his team does in fact still have a winning record and his advanced metrics are through the roof (currently shattering the all time Assist% mark, legendarily high PER/WS/OBPM/RPM, etc). Seems to me the raw numbers are the sole reason why you're salivating over Bron's performance (other than his teams success... which we all expected and he has plenty of help with).

CP3 has been better than Blake but that doesn't mean Blake doesn't have his own case. As I mentioned earlier Blake PER 36 is 22.5 ppg, 11 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 spg with outstanding defense. Those are MVP worthy numbers. He's not ahead of Harden, James, CP3 etc most likely but he's in top 5 discussion and surely ahead of Anthony Davis.

CP3/Kawhi/Durant/Curry/Harden/Westbrook have all been clearly better than Blake this season (he's having a good year, but nothing out of the ordinary other than some more improvement defensively). He's more in line with Derozan and Lillard's tier so far than those guys (and both of them have been better than Blake in the early going).

[OkcSinceSGA]

A) Lebron is not averaging a triple-double.

B) Overall it's the 2nd worst regular season production of his career to only his rookie year. Lowest PPG, lowest PER (not remotely close to the top 10 in the NBA here), mediocre TS%, etc.

C) CP3 has been setting a (admittedly unsustainable) career pace and has clearly been the best player on his team. Why would Blake be top-3?

D) You say "raw numbers are cool but winning actually has to matter" concerning Harden. But his team does in fact still have a winning record and his advanced metrics are through the roof (currently shattering the all time Assist% mark, legendarily high PER/WS/OBPM/RPM, etc). Seems to me the raw numbers are the sole reason why you're salivating over Bron's performance (other than his teams success... which we all expected and he has plenty of help with).

CP3 has been better than Blake but that doesn't mean Blake doesn't have his own case. As I mentioned earlier Blake PER 36 is 22.5 ppg, 11 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 spg with outstanding defense. Those are MVP worthy numbers. He's not ahead of Harden, James, CP3 etc most likely but he's in top 5 discussion and surely ahead of Anthony Davis.

CP3/Kawhi/Durant/Curry/Harden/Westbrook have all been clearly better than Blake this season (he's having a good year, but nothing out of the ordinary other than some more improvement defensively). He's more in line with Derozan and Lillard's tier so far than those guys (and both of them have been better than Blake in the early going).

I didn't say otherwise. He can be discussed within the top 5 depending on criteria. Anywhere in 5-10 in general as in most years. Although I don't agree with your negligence of the defensive end and the strides he's made there. The MAIN reason he has an MVP case over the likes of Lillard, Derozan in some discussions would be that Blake is playing at a level defensively that's top 10 DPOY worthy to this point. Now whether or not he maintains this or not is another story, but at this very second Blake is a top 5-6 player arguably and DEFINITELY top 10 (which BTW many said otherwise before the season started). Blake will be in the MVP discussion and multiple formula's have concluded as much to this point including BR's MVP odds tracker.

The first mistake is the suggestion that the gap is huge between the first 6 guys you listed. Any given night, series or stretch Blake can outplay anybody in the league nearly (has done so on multiple occasions). He was arguably the best player of the 2015 playoffs with 26/12/6 averages in 14 games vs super tough competition. He also finished 3rd in the MVP race in 2013 when Paul went down and Blake averaged 28/10/6 without him for 19 games. The idea that Blake is locked into a lesser tier is ignorant.

[Triples333]

CP3 has been better than Blake but that doesn't mean Blake doesn't have his own case. As I mentioned earlier Blake PER 36 is 22.5 ppg, 11 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 spg with outstanding defense. Those are MVP worthy numbers. He's not ahead of Harden, James, CP3 etc most likely but he's in top 5 discussion and surely ahead of Anthony Davis.

CP3/Kawhi/Durant/Curry/Harden/Westbrook have all been clearly better than Blake this season (he's having a good year, but nothing out of the ordinary other than some more improvement defensively). He's more in line with Derozan and Lillard's tier so far than those guys (and both of them have been better than Blake in the early going).

I didn't say otherwise. He can be discussed within the top 5 depending on criteria. Anywhere in 5-10 in general as in most years. Although I don't agree with your negligence of the defensive end and the strides he's made there. The MAIN reason he has an MVP case over the likes of Lillard, Derozan in some discussions would be that Blake is playing at a level defensively that's top 10 DPOY worthy to this point. Now whether or not he maintains this or not is another story, but at this very second Blake is a top 5-6 player arguably and DEFINITELY top 10 (which BTW many said otherwise before the season started). Blake will be in the MVP discussion and multiple formula's have concluded as much to this point including BR's MVP odds tracker.

The first mistake is the suggestion that the gap is huge between the first 6 guys you listed. Any given night, series or stretch Blake can outplay anybody in the league nearly (has done so on multiple occasions). He was arguably the best player of the 2015 playoffs with 26/12/6 averages in 14 games vs super tough competition. He also finished 3rd in the MVP race in 2013 when Paul went down and Blake averaged 28/10/6 without him for 19 games. The idea that Blake is locked into a lesser tier is ignorant.

Even if he's D is as good as you claim, it's received no national attention and he certainly isn't considered the best defensive player on his team. My point (to the other fella) was that him saying Blake is being "disrespected" by people not talking about him as MVP is sort of ridiculous. He isn't his teams MVP, and certainly isn't the NBA's MVP.

[OkcSinceSGA]

CP3/Kawhi/Durant/Curry/Harden/Westbrook have all been clearly better than Blake this season (he's having a good year, but nothing out of the ordinary other than some more improvement defensively). He's more in line with Derozan and Lillard's tier so far than those guys (and both of them have been better than Blake in the early going).

I didn't say otherwise. He can be discussed within the top 5 depending on criteria. Anywhere in 5-10 in general as in most years. Although I don't agree with your negligence of the defensive end and the strides he's made there. The MAIN reason he has an MVP case over the likes of Lillard, Derozan in some discussions would be that Blake is playing at a level defensively that's top 10 DPOY worthy to this point. Now whether or not he maintains this or not is another story, but at this very second Blake is a top 5-6 player arguably and DEFINITELY top 10 (which BTW many said otherwise before the season started). Blake will be in the MVP discussion and multiple formula's have concluded as much to this point including BR's MVP odds tracker.

The first mistake is the suggestion that the gap is huge between the first 6 guys you listed. Any given night, series or stretch Blake can outplay anybody in the league nearly (has done so on multiple occasions). He was arguably the best player of the 2015 playoffs with 26/12/6 averages in 14 games vs super tough competition. He also finished 3rd in the MVP race in 2013 when Paul went down and Blake averaged 28/10/6 without him for 19 games. The idea that Blake is locked into a lesser tier is ignorant.

Even if he's D is as good as you claim, it's received no national attention and he certainly isn't considered the best defensive player on his team. My point (to the other fella) was that him saying Blake is being "disrespected" by people not talking about him as MVP is sort of ridiculous. He isn't his teams MVP, and certainly isn't the NBA's MVP.

He is being disrespected though and your post proved it entirely. You basically said that Blake is definitively the 9th or worst best player in the league. As if it wasn't a discussion or debatable. You proved his point. Most people know CP3 is an MVP worthy player. Few acknowledge Blake as such. Also it's the sum of all parts. Blake doesn't need to be better than CP3 on offense or better than DJ to be in the discussion for MVP. It's the fact that he's arguably the most complete player on the team in terms of affecting both ends. CP3 is good defensively, but Blake's been more important than CP3 defensively this year by far.

[Triples333]

I didn't say otherwise. He can be discussed within the top 5 depending on criteria. Anywhere in 5-10 in general as in most years. Although I don't agree with your negligence of the defensive end and the strides he's made there. The MAIN reason he has an MVP case over the likes of Lillard, Derozan in some discussions would be that Blake is playing at a level defensively that's top 10 DPOY worthy to this point. Now whether or not he maintains this or not is another story, but at this very second Blake is a top 5-6 player arguably and DEFINITELY top 10 (which BTW many said otherwise before the season started). Blake will be in the MVP discussion and multiple formula's have concluded as much to this point including BR's MVP odds tracker.

The first mistake is the suggestion that the gap is huge between the first 6 guys you listed. Any given night, series or stretch Blake can outplay anybody in the league nearly (has done so on multiple occasions). He was arguably the best player of the 2015 playoffs with 26/12/6 averages in 14 games vs super tough competition. He also finished 3rd in the MVP race in 2013 when Paul went down and Blake averaged 28/10/6 without him for 19 games. The idea that Blake is locked into a lesser tier is ignorant.

Even if he's D is as good as you claim, it's received no national attention and he certainly isn't considered the best defensive player on his team. My point (to the other fella) was that him saying Blake is being "disrespected" by people not talking about him as MVP is sort of ridiculous. He isn't his teams MVP, and certainly isn't the NBA's MVP.

He is being disrespected though and your post proved it entirely. You basically said that Blake is definitively the 9th or worst best player in the league. As if it wasn't a discussion or debatable. You proved his point. Most people know CP3 is an MVP worthy player. Few acknowledge Blake as such.

Because this is a thread for discussing MVP candidates and he is not one at the present moment. It's not "disrespect", he just isn't man.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Even if he's D is as good as you claim, it's received no national attention and he certainly isn't considered the best defensive player on his team. My point (to the other fella) was that him saying Blake is being "disrespected" by people not talking about him as MVP is sort of ridiculous. He isn't his teams MVP, and certainly isn't the NBA's MVP.

He is being disrespected though and your post proved it entirely. You basically said that Blake is definitively the 9th or worst best player in the league. As if it wasn't a discussion or debatable. You proved his point. Most people know CP3 is an MVP worthy player. Few acknowledge Blake as such.

Because this is a thread for discussing MVP candidates and he is not one at the present moment. It's not "disrespect", he just isn't man.

Yes, he is. Multiple publications have him in the 4-6 range as I've already substantiated. Statistically on both ends he has a case for the bottom of the top 5. You continuously saying otherwise doesn't mean that it's going to be true.

[Triples333]

He is being disrespected though and your post proved it entirely. You basically said that Blake is definitively the 9th or worst best player in the league. As if it wasn't a discussion or debatable. You proved his point. Most people know CP3 is an MVP worthy player. Few acknowledge Blake as such.

Because this is a thread for discussing MVP candidates and he is not one at the present moment. It's not "disrespect", he just isn't man.

Yes, he is. Multiple publications have him in the 4-6 range as I've already substantiated. Statistically on both ends he has a case for the bottom of the top 5. You continuously saying otherwise doesn't mean that it's going to be true.

He has no case as a top 5 offensive player right now (CP3/Curry/KD/Westbrook/Kawhi/Lebron he has no case over. Likely not Derozan or Lillard or AD to name some others) , and good luck convincing people that he's a top 5 defensive player in the NBA (true or not). I've taken enough time out of the actual debate talking about Blake though. I'll let you have the final word.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Because this is a thread for discussing MVP candidates and he is not one at the present moment. It's not "disrespect", he just isn't man.

Yes, he is. Multiple publications have him in the 4-6 range as I've already substantiated. Statistically on both ends he has a case for the bottom of the top 5. You continuously saying otherwise doesn't mean that it's going to be true.

He has no case as a top 5 offensive player right now (CP3/Curry/KD/Westbrook/Kawhi/Lebron he has no case over. Likely not Derozan or Lillard or AD to name some others) , and good luck convincing people that he's a top 5 defensive player in the NBA (true or not). I've taken enough time out of the actual debate talking about Blake though. I'll let you have the final word.

You clearly didn't read my point. My point was it's the sum of all parts, not that he's top 5 on either end. When you're saying players like Lillard/Derozan etc are clearly better despite being far inferior on defense this year, that's what I'm contesting. I don't believe he's a top 4 or 5 player necessarily. But I think he's 5-10 ish and any given night/series can outplay anybody in the league (has done on many occasions).

[Triples333]

Yes, he is. Multiple publications have him in the 4-6 range as I've already substantiated. Statistically on both ends he has a case for the bottom of the top 5. You continuously saying otherwise doesn't mean that it's going to be true.

He has no case as a top 5 offensive player right now (CP3/Curry/KD/Westbrook/Kawhi/Lebron he has no case over. Likely not Derozan or Lillard or AD to name some others) , and good luck convincing people that he's a top 5 defensive player in the NBA (true or not). I've taken enough time out of the actual debate talking about Blake though. I'll let you have the final word.

You clearly didn't read my point. My point was it's the sum of all parts, not that he's top 5 on either end. When you're saying players like Lillard/Derozan etc are clearly better despite being far inferior on defense this year, that's what I'm contesting. I don't believe he's a top 4 or 5 player necessarily. But I think he's 5-10 ish and any given night/series can outplay anybody in the league (has done on many occasions).

OK gotchya. Based on your comment it sounds like you're saying he has a case for top 5 "on both ends". But you mean overall? Fair enough. Disagree but I suppose an argument can be had if he's as top-of-the-totem-pole defensively as you're suggesting.

[OkcSinceSGA]

He has no case as a top 5 offensive player right now (CP3/Curry/KD/Westbrook/Kawhi/Lebron he has no case over. Likely not Derozan or Lillard or AD to name some others) , and good luck convincing people that he's a top 5 defensive player in the NBA (true or not). I've taken enough time out of the actual debate talking about Blake though. I'll let you have the final word.

You clearly didn't read my point. My point was it's the sum of all parts, not that he's top 5 on either end. When you're saying players like Lillard/Derozan etc are clearly better despite being far inferior on defense this year, that's what I'm contesting. I don't believe he's a top 4 or 5 player necessarily. But I think he's 5-10 ish and any given night/series can outplay anybody in the league (has done on many occasions).

OK gotchya. Based on your comment it sounds like you're saying he has a case for top 5 "on both ends". But you mean overall? Fair enough. Disagree but I suppose an argument can be had if he's as top-of-the-totem-pole defensively as you're suggesting.

Glad we got somewhere there. Again, Blake will likely drop off a bit on defense. But I also expect Derozan, Lillard etc to not average 32 ppg all year. Blake will finish somewhere in the 5-10 range as usual probably. I personally think CP3 will win MVP if the Clippers win 60+ games and grab a 1-2 seed.

[Wargreymon]

Disclaimer - this isn't my MVP ranking by any means, but I thought i'd share.

Chris Paul\paulch01 13.2
Russell Westbrook\westbru01 11.4
James Harden\hardeja01 10.5
Jimmy Butler\butleji01 8.2
Kawhi Leonard\leonaka01 8.2
Kemba Walker\walkeke02 8.1
George Hill\hillge01 7.4
Kevin Durant\duranke01 7.4
Anthony Davis\davisan02 7.1
DeMar DeRozan\derozde01 7.0
Damian Lillard\lillada01 6.9
Stephen Curry\curryst01 6.6
Giannis Antetokounmpo\antetgi01 6.6
Blake Griffin\griffbl01 6.2
Dwight Howard\howardw01 6.1
LeBron James\jamesle01 5.9

Wow surprised George Hill ranks so high by these metrics. I know he's an elite defender and decent 3 point shooter but dang...Then again Shelvin Mack (10.37 PER) is pretty trash playing in Hill's absence...

[PackAttack9]

Don't know if my guy has been mentioned yet, but keep an eye on Giannis. He's playing like a top 3 player in the East, top ten player overall. He should be a step above Anthony Davis because of Bucks are winning more than the Pelicans.

[zimpy27]

Chris Paul having another amazing game. He is currently running around with a WS/48 of 0.408, next best is Harden with 0.305. For perspective, the best ever season average is Kareem with 0.340 in 71-72, Curry last year was 0.318 and LeBron's best ever was 0.322.

Paul also has the best PER in the league right now with 31.9, best ever is WIlt with 31.8.

So Paul is currently having the greatest game impact efficiency of all time, long time to go though but it certainly needs to be known.