Would you be more or less impressed if Jordan was 6-2 in the finals?

[LouisLitt]

I know it doesn't make much sense but that just how it is. People look at him as a "flawless" player that never lost in the finals or even needed a game 7. That's a big part of his legend.

People really only started bring that up around the time Lebron began to be great.

Had Lebron never existed, this wouldn't even be a question.

[mysticOscar]

Just looking at it from a numbers standpoint 6-2 is definitely more impressive.

But apart of the reason 6-0 is so impressive is because it means when MJ had a capable team they left nothing on the table which adds to his mystique. So it isn't as simple as it looks.

Yeah, but I think this just shows that humans tend to be bad at logic. And this is hardly the exception.

You might object that it's because sometimes humans value feelings more. But if we're trying to objectively rank the all-time greats, then the feeling of mystique should not override the obvious fact that 6-2 is better than 6-0 in this scenario.

Logic is great but common sense is even better. Once MJ reached the top he stayed on top....thats what 6-0 shows.

Of course if the 2 finals losses happened before 91...then thats even better...but losing it in between his championships is detrement to his aura and legacy.

I know u will bring up '95...but anyone with common sense knows that a bit more than a dozen games in rs and a playoff series is not enough time to gel for team and get back in GOAT shape after almost 2 year layoff.

Common sense >>> inferior basic logic

[troza]

It would depend on how he played.

the only finals you can hold against lebron is 2011. should have been fmvp in 2015 and maybe in 2014 as well. he has been the best player in the finals 5 straight years. incredible stuff.

Yes and no. 2007 the Cavs were able to make all games close games... yet Lebron was never able to breakthrough and reach his normal level of play... Imagine that he did one less turnover per game and 25 ppg instead of 22 ppg. It would still be under his RS averages and it would be normal against a good defensive team but that could have been enough to make the difference between 4-0 in 4 games to 2-2 after 4 games. I said could, as the worse game was game one where, if he performed like the rest of the series, the cavs wouldn't have lost by 9 points (he would beat the spurs) but the other results would have been the same.

In 2014 is one of those series where his stats don't tell the story... In those finals I got the idea that he stat padded never wanting to sacrifice the amazing efficiency numbers he had for the greater good... he disappeared, he didn't force. And if you say that's not true, just see what he actually did next year with a worse team to see that I'm right. He could have done much more in that series.

Of course it was still a team defeat but the star could have done better. Mainly 2014 when you compare to 2015. 2007 still has other things we should consider: age, him being almost sole on offense against a good defensive team.

[mysticOscar]

For LBJ fans that has no idea what aura Jordan had with those 2 3peats....

Its like this...

Imagine when LBJ went to Miami in '11. Imagine him playing like a GOAT type year with a GOAT type playoff and finals then winning a ring.

Then in '12...winning it again....then in '13...taking the all 3 finals mvp in the process.

Then lets say he has an injury the following year that derails his season.

Then LBJ going to Cavs to join Kyrie and Love...then winning in '14, then in '15 and then '16 (with LBJ taking the final game winning clutch shot).

That to me is a GOAT calibre impressive sequence right?

Having that sequence i can even forgive Lebron about joining other superstars with Heat and Cavs...i would be lining up for him to put next to Jordan...

Looking at the way LBJ has done so far....played badly in '11 and played 3rd fiddle and losing the finals. Got b2b in '12 and '13...great! Losing '14 while having a very passive finals....then leaving Heat as a loser to join up Kyrie and Love in Cavs. Then losing in '15 finals...while playing great with injured teammates...but losing in the process. Then winning the '16 championships while playing a GOAT type finals against a formidle team.

Now thats a great resume...but not a GOAT resume.

You guy's will complain and yap about all the excuses i.e. wades decline or how crap his superstar teammates are yadda yadda...like didnt Lebron choose to team up with them???? Thats on Lebron!

[Ganji]

why should I be more Impressed that he did not make it to finals 2 times? It's more impressive that he did not make it to finals two times? Does not matter how many times you make it to finals, only thing that matters is, how many rings you got.

So, by this inane logic, a guy who goes 6-0 in his 20 year career while making the playoffs 6 times has a better resume than a guy that goes 5-15 in the finals in his 20 years.

guy who goes to finals more is better player. How is losing in finals worse then not making to the finals at all?

[GermanFan120]

How is being undefeated in the nba final considered LESS impressive?

Because you weren't good enough to make it the other two times.

Read my message again.

[Prokorov]

If Jordan's career were the same with one exception - in 1989 and 1990 he had made it out of the East and then lost in the finals - everything else being the same - would his career be more or less impressive?

It would change it sligthly but not much at all.

had he lost to the rockets twice instead of retiring while at his apex to an inferior team/player that to me would be a real black eye

[10DayContract]

The thing about GOAT debates is people use logic, others use feelings, and others use both.

I think it's both. The G is GOAT stands for "Greatest." Greatest is about a feeling too. That's why Ali is called "The Greatest." Of course he was an incredible fighter, but it's the other things that made him The Greatest. Jordan is alot like that for many people. It's a combination of everything.

[HurricaneKid]

2007 east was probably the worst of the century with Miami and Detroit gone from the picture. Miami because Shaq was done at high level and Detroit because they were too old.

But since MJ retired the East Playoffs have been boring and pointless, because you had 1 good/great team and then.... nothing.

We know this thread is not really about MJ, but it's about LeBron meaningless Eastern Conference wins with his Superteams.

Nobody will remember 7 or 15 straight finals reached, if he ends up with a losing record in the NBA Finals....


Right now he's 3-4 career and 3-3 with superteams. Meh....

This is a willfully ridiculous statement meant to do nothing but denigrate LeBron.

Detroit wasn't too old. They had been to the ECF the previous 4 years, had won the Championship once and lost in the Finals once. They were the #1 seed.

Here are their ages, sorted by min played during the RS:
26
28
30
32
32
27
24

That is hardly an old team. You are only denigrating them because the way LeBron took their collective heart was an amazing accomplishment. Especially considering Z was his second best player and wouldn't have even gotten minutes on that Pistons team.

LeBron has now been to 8 NBA Finals and the only one he was favored in was 2011.

[Kobeshow]

2007 east was probably the worst of the century with Miami and Detroit gone from the picture. Miami because Shaq was done at high level and Detroit because they were too old.

But since MJ retired the East Playoffs have been boring and pointless, because you had 1 good/great team and then.... nothing.

We know this thread is not really about MJ, but it's about LeBron meaningless Eastern Conference wins with his Superteams.

Nobody will remember 7 or 15 straight finals reached, if he ends up with a losing record in the NBA Finals....


Right now he's 3-4 career and 3-3 with superteams. Meh....

This is a willfully ridiculous statement meant to do nothing but denigrate LeBron.

Detroit wasn't too old. They had been to the ECF the previous 4 years, had won the Championship once and lost in the Finals once. They were the #1 seed.

Here are their ages, sorted by min played during the RS:
26
28
30
32
32
27
24

That is hardly an old team. You are only denigrating them because the way LeBron took their collective heart was an amazing accomplishment. Especially considering Z was his second best player and wouldn't have even gotten minutes on that Pistons team.

LeBron has now been to 8 NBA Finals and the only one he was favored in was 2011.

He was favored from 2011 to 2014 and won 2 out of 4. Period...

But he was favored in 2009 and 2010 too against the Magic and the Celtics, still lost badly and run away to South Beach while people were burning his jersey in Cleveland...

[OsuCavsfan103]

People in here acting like Jordan only played 6 years in the league and went 6-0 or something.

6-6 is impressive, but you cannot ignore the many years he couldn't make it if you are going to hate on LeBron for his finals record.

LeBron teamed up with his competition so they could steamroll the East.

There is a difference, whether you want to admit it or not.

If Jordan teamed up with Ewing and they went to the Finals every year and lost a good amount, it would absolutely be held against him.

Not if Jordan was still dominant no I do not believe they would. The only year you can truly criticize LeBron justifiably is 2011.

Plus, Jordan sat out almost two full years (I know one was largely due to lockout). I can only imagine how much wear and tear he saved on his body doing that. You think LeBron would be criticized if he sat out almost two full years? Heck yes he would, he gets criticized for missing 5 games in a year. Heck Jordan retired a total of 3 times...

LeBron was stuck on crap teams in CLE in his first stint doing it himself, he made a decision that put him in a better place. He didn't get the luxury of having 2 HOF coaches, and another all-star in Pippen right off the bat.

[HurricaneKid]

2007 east was probably the worst of the century with Miami and Detroit gone from the picture. Miami because Shaq was done at high level and Detroit because they were too old.

But since MJ retired the East Playoffs have been boring and pointless, because you had 1 good/great team and then.... nothing.

We know this thread is not really about MJ, but it's about LeBron meaningless Eastern Conference wins with his Superteams.

Nobody will remember 7 or 15 straight finals reached, if he ends up with a losing record in the NBA Finals....


Right now he's 3-4 career and 3-3 with superteams. Meh....

This is a willfully ridiculous statement meant to do nothing but denigrate LeBron.

Detroit wasn't too old. They had been to the ECF the previous 4 years, had won the Championship once and lost in the Finals once. They were the #1 seed.

Here are their ages, sorted by min played during the RS:
26
28
30
32
32
27
24

That is hardly an old team. You are only denigrating them because the way LeBron took their collective heart was an amazing accomplishment. Especially considering Z was his second best player and wouldn't have even gotten minutes on that Pistons team.

LeBron has now been to 8 NBA Finals and the only one he was favored in was 2011.

He was favored from 2011 to 2014 and won 2 out of 4. Period...

But he was favored in 2009 and 2010 too against the Magic and the Celtics, still lost badly and run away to South Beach while people were burning his jersey in Cleveland...

You really have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

2012:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1217803-nba-finals-2012-odds-why-oklahoma-city-thunder-are-clear-cut-favorites

2014:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2082717-nba-finals-2014-examining-series-odds-for-heat-vs-spurs

[Kobeshow]

This is a willfully ridiculous statement meant to do nothing but denigrate LeBron.

Detroit wasn't too old. They had been to the ECF the previous 4 years, had won the Championship once and lost in the Finals once. They were the #1 seed.

Here are their ages, sorted by min played during the RS:
26
28
30
32
32
27
24

That is hardly an old team. You are only denigrating them because the way LeBron took their collective heart was an amazing accomplishment. Especially considering Z was his second best player and wouldn't have even gotten minutes on that Pistons team.

LeBron has now been to 8 NBA Finals and the only one he was favored in was 2011.

He was favored from 2011 to 2014 and won 2 out of 4. Period...

But he was favored in 2009 and 2010 too against the Magic and the Celtics, still lost badly and run away to South Beach while people were burning his jersey in Cleveland...

You really have NO IDEA what you are talking about.


2012:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1217803-nba-finals-2012-odds-why-oklahoma-city-thunder-are-clear-cut-favorites

2014:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2082717-nba-finals-2014-examining-series-odds-for-heat-vs-spurs

They were wrong, simple as that...

[HurricaneKid]

He was favored from 2011 to 2014 and won 2 out of 4. Period...

But he was favored in 2009 and 2010 too against the Magic and the Celtics, still lost badly and run away to South Beach while people were burning his jersey in Cleveland...

You really have NO IDEA what you are talking about.


2012:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1217803-nba-finals-2012-odds-why-oklahoma-city-thunder-are-clear-cut-favorites

2014:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2082717-nba-finals-2014-examining-series-odds-for-heat-vs-spurs

They were wrong, simple as that...

So its your position that Vegas didn't know who the favorites were.

Dear. God.

Someone please tell me how to use the ignore function.

[Pablo Novi]

Pablo's "This is essentially a 'religious-type' argument" RANT

1. This is essentially a "religious-type" argument.
My "god" is better than your "god".
Why? Because that was what I was raised (indoctrinated before I was capable of reasoning) to believe.

What percent of people born into one religion every convert to another? Probably way less than 1% - yet, by logic alone, we KNOW that 99% of the people who have existed and believed in "The One & Only True Religion" were wrong.

Same thing with MJ (as it was before him for Wilt and before him for Mikan - I KNOW this because I LIVED that "The Only & Only True GOAT" periods of the past. I'd bet the majority of people who say, "MJ is the GOAT" also believe that "MJ is the GOAT and will ALWAYS be the GOAT!" (Heck that's what tons of them say).

So, in the next 100 years there is NO possibility that even one player will come along who is better than MJ??? RIDICULOUS.

Which is why I SAY this is a "religious-type" argument.

btw, imo, the super-common phrase "x is way better than y, AND IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE!" - is EXACTLY the same NONSENSE.

Imo, when we're talking about large sample sizes (like entire careers, for example), it is ALMOST NEVER the case that the gaps between #1 and #2 are HUGE. In my GOAT lists (for basketball, running marathons, hard-rock songs, soft-rock songs, etc. etc. - I've got lots of GOAT lists!) - in NO CASE is the #1 way better than the #2.

2. When one GOAT / god is beginning to be, or threatened to be, replaced by another, newer one.
This is what "we" did back right after Mikan's career ended. It SEEMED so obvious that he was not only the GOAT (certainly true up to that point!) but would ALWAYS be the GOAT (he was THAT DOMINANT - it was almost automatic that we believed so).

But then Wilt came along and it was OBVIOUS for most of us that Wilt was FAR greater than Mikan.

There was then a big split amongst fans.
A. The die-hard "Mikan Is GOAT" fans - refused to accept any arguments because it went against their ingrained faith.
B. The rest of us REALIZED that we had been (dead) wrong about "Mike ALWAYS being the GOAT".
C. A FEW OF US REALIZED that the whole "x person ... will ALWAYS BE GOAT" was a "religious-type" argument and therefore, intrinsically false - and quite dangerous to believe in - exactly because it inevitably BLINDS people to the TRUTH, to new, better information.

3. By the end of Kareem's career, there was a HUGE SPLIT between "Wilt Is GOAT (& ALWAYS) Will Be!" VS "KAJ IS GOAT".
The adherents of "Mikan is GOAT (& ALWAYS will be) had mostly: given up; become convinced otherwise; or died off.

Personally, at THAT moment (and onwards) I had no problem whatsoever with THINKING that KAJ was the GOAT (over Wilt and all others before KAJ). But for MOST fans (particularly Wilt-"faithful" fans) this was HERETICAL, BLASPHEMOUS.

4. The SAME process repeated vis-à-vis Magic OR Bird. Was one of them GOAT?
Newer fans tended to think yes; older fans found THAT to be HERETICAL, BLASHPHEMOS.
For most (?) of the Mikan=GOAT; no, Wilt=GOAT; no, KAJ=GOAT fans - no amount of achievements by Bird or Magic could be allowed to sway them - it just went too much against theirs "religious" beliefs.

5. The SAME process repeated with MJ.
Just as in ALL the previous examples, the "MJ = GOAT" faithful use SPECIAL PLEADING (and anything and everything else available to defend their faith); irregardless of any and all facts!

BUT, in MJ's case there was on additional, HUGE, factor: the HYPE in favor of "all-things MJ" was MASSIVE, all-pervasive. Thus, why the "MJ=GOAT/god" is THE most entrenched.

6. The SAME process is starting to repeat with LBJ.
I for one can already see this clearly developing. LeBron is beginning to be treated as the "new god/GOAT" - with the same hysterical BLIND FAITH.
----
I OPPOSED the previous versions of "religious-faith": "x person is (& ALWAYS will be) the GOAT" - whether it was about Mikan, or Wilt, or Kareem, or Magic, or Bird, or MJ. I ALREADY find myself being "forced" to speak out about the nascent "LBJ is GOAT and ALWAYS will be" religion.

Frankly, I have KAJ as GOAT (but never have said and never will say that "KAJ will ALWAYS be the GOAT").

On my NBA-ABA-NBL GOAT list, I've had LeBron moving up one All-Time Great spot each year - I currently have LeBron GOAT #4 (after KAJ, Magic and then MJ). So, IF he can add on about 3 more "Great Years" (which I define as seasons in which a player was selected: All-League 1st-Team or 2nd-Team) - it looks like LeBron is gonna be my GOAT #1 player in the future.
---
7. So What's Really Going On Here? It's DIVIDE & CONQUER
- just like what ALL religion / faith / hero-worship has ALWAYS represented. The Powers-That-Be ALWAYS use divide-and-conquer to rule over the majority. (Btw, after 50+ years of heavy-duty peace-justice activism AND just as many years (a half-century) of heavy-duty study of politics / economics and culture, I am 100% sure that the PTBs nowadays are the world's 2,000 or so BILLIONAIRES; and, amongst them, the dominant group is the 545 AMERICAN BILLIONAIRES.)

It is after all, simply the "GOLDEN RULE": He/she who has the (most) gold; makes the (most) rules!

Personal religious-type beliefs should NOT be nearly such a DIVISIVE force in society - but THEY ARE!
"Worship" of sports "gods/GOATs" is the same thing; and plays exactly the same DIVISIVE role.

8. The AMERICAN people are dominated by ARROGANT SECTARIANISM.
For the past 70-100 years, the U.S. has been the "top dog" in the world. When the UK played that role (for about 100 years of the British Empire); BY FAR the most arrogant-sectarian people on the planet were the British; now it's we Americans - it "comes with the territory" - given the need of the super-rich to keep us divided and confused.

We squabble over "everything": Which sport is (SUPPOSEDLY) the best? Which music artist? Which dancer? Which player? Which team? Which city? Which state? Which country? Which religion?

And we don't just squabble "civilly" - we FLAME WAR.
Shouldn't we all just be enjoying the bleep out of all these great: plays, games and series; and artists, players and teams?
Of course. Instead though, what we have is ARROGANT SECTARIANISM EN MASSE.

9. TRIBALISM is the ANTI-GOAT Philosophy and will ALWAYS be the ANTI-GOAT Philosophy
All this arrogance, all this sectarianism ... are all based on tribalism. My "side" is better than your "side".
Worse, "MY side is so much 'better' than YOUR side; that MY side lives and dies in glory; while YOUR side lives in infamy and dies in ETERNAL HELL (experiencing the worst torture imaginable and unimaginable every second for the next trillion years - renewable at that time)". [What kind of a "loving god" condemns each and every person to such incredible suffering for the "sin" of either not even knowing about "his" existence or not accepting "him" as the "one and only true" god????]

Is this the best way to think and live?
REALLY?

[Louie_Ruckuz]

What I do know is that 6 out of 6 is better than 3 out of 7, how about them STATS for you?

If it was your destiny to be a basketball player and you had the option of going 6 out of 6 or 3 our of 7 in the FINALS which one do you chose?

[Pablo Novi]

What I do know is that 6 out of 6 is better than 3 out of 7, how about them STATS for you?

If it was your destiny to be a basketball player and you had the option of going 6 out of 6 or 3 our of 7 in the FINALS which one do you chose?

There's "only" one problem with your post:
NOBODY is claiming that 3 out of 7 is better than 6 out of 6.

So, you're using a Straw Horse argument.

In MY case, I DO make this argument:
Magic's 5 Chips PLUS 4 other Finals was better than
MJ's 6 Chips PLUS 3 other years LOSING BEFORE the Finals.

imo, it is no small achievement to lead a team to the Finals (yet lose there); because it's the 2nd best spot out of THIRTY teams.
It is much less of an achievement to lose in earlier rounds (like, in THIS case, MJ did). It is much less of an achievement still to not even make the Play-Offs.

How can this not be (self-)evident?

Ask ANY serious athlete: Would YOU rather finish 2nd or worse than 2nd? 99.99% of them would choose 2nd over worse-than-2nd.

Wouldn't YOU?

Was Jerry West a GOAT Top 25 or so player? 90+% of serious b-ball analysts would say, "Of course". Yet he was 1W - 8L in the Finals.

Was Elgin Baylor either a GOAT Top 25 or just outside the GOAT Top 25 player? 90+% of serious b-ball analysts would say, "YES!"

But, according to your line of thinking, Elgin was THE WORST LOSER OF ALL TIME (after all he lost all 8 of his Finals); and Jerry West was the 2nd WORST LOSER OF ALL TIME (after all, he only won 1 of his 9 Finals).

Frankly, for any SERIOUS b-ball fan, holding such a position, is 100% EMBARRASSING.
Sorry.

[mup]

Most people who talk about how great Jordan was didn't see him play or forgot the discussions about him. I remember an episode of, I think, the Sports Reporters from about 1990 (Jordan's 6th year in the league). They were discussing who the greatest player in the league was. I think they focused a lot on Magic Johnson and there was some discussion of Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Isiah Thomas. One of the guys brought up Jordan as an afterthought and he was quickly dismissed as a guy who can score but can't win, and there wasn't much of a debate. Somebody compared him to Pete Maravich and Bob McAdoo. If I recall, Jordan and Dominique Wilkins were more or less brought up together as the "dunkers" and, although I think Jordan was given a little more credit, neither one was long for the debate. That was Jordan's place until 1991.

The point being that Jordan wasn't always JORDAN! He was viewed as a guy who cared only about scoring who could never lead a team to a title. During the mid 80s, he was on par with Bo Jackson and Daryl Strawberry--- a flashy guy who brought back the dunk but was the product of media hype and not a real competitive threat. People thought that Nike was hitching its wagon to this guy only because kids liked dunks.

I remember those discussions about Jordan too vividly to ever put him on a pedestal. He turned into a great all around player and proved the critics wrong. But that was all later. He wasn't an instant hall of famer by any stretch.

6-2 is Jordan's ECF record. So he's proven that he's capable of not winning the big game. He also proved he's capable of not even getting there.

James is 8-1 in the ECF.

I'm not sure those numbers mean anything but take them for what they're worth.

[lipstickonface]

Losing to Bird's Celtics & Bad Boy Pistons

>

Defeating Pacers, Raptors, whatever other scrub teams James faces today

[guy1]

Ask ANY serious athlete: Would YOU rather finish 2nd or worse than 2nd? 99.99% of them would choose 2nd over worse-than-2nd.
.

This is true, but who really cares that much about 2nd? Pretty sure any serious athlete would prefer being 1st 60% of the time and dead last 40% of the time vs 1st 50% of the time and 2nd the other 50% of the time.

I bet Jim Kelly would switch his team's success for Eli Manning's with no hesitation.