Better player next season: Simmons or Doncic?

[Pg81]

Simmons does have a higher ceiling but if I was betting I would put my money on Luka all day long.
It is just more believable.
If he improves his 3pt percentage a bit (a few points - and he just need not to take stupid shots at the end of the clock-time) that will add another 2-4 points to his points per game and you have a 25 pts, 6 assist, 8 reb guy... Without changing anything...
How many of those guys are in NBA? We are talking ALL-NBA with those stats.
We all always think and compare these guys to elite of the elite.
But the reality is that even if Luka improves a tiny bit he will be an Allstar minimum.
Simmons has a higher ceiling but I doubt that he can become a good shooter in a year or two. Therefore he will be limited until that time comes or if it will ever come.
NEXT YEAR LUKA FOR SURE.

I see no reason to believe that Simmons has a higher ceiling than Luka.

He is faster, more athletic, jumps higher.
He is just a better athlete overall.
He as well is deadly on open floor and he is better in that than Luka. And his "only problem" is that he can't be a superb point guard because he does not shoot... "Only" is in quotes because lack of shooting makes him limited in a lot of other areas and therefore Luka is better.

I can probably point out a couple of hundred NBA athletes who were far more athletic than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Athleticism is hardly the sole predictor of ceiling. Plenty of all time greats up there with limited athleticism alongside those two, guys like Dirk, Stockton, Nash, Sabonis, Walton, etc.

Let me guess. Is it because Ben can’t shoot?

That and he already led a team to a title winning MvP while being the youngest, but I am sure that was just a fluke that the guy who has been polishing his skills at a professional level for the past odd 3-4 years comes into the league polished beyond anything Simmons was when he was at the same age.

If he had done that in the NBA then great but I’m not here to argue Euroleague vs NCAA. Simmons was the better player last year in the league that matters.

Euroleague matters, it is far superior to the NCAA and Doncic was merely 18/19 at the time. So far Doncic has won a title in a grown up league, MvP and RoY. What exactly has Simmons to show for so far?

[reflex35]

I see no reason to believe that Simmons has a higher ceiling than Luka.

He is faster, more athletic, jumps higher.
He is just a better athlete overall.
He as well is deadly on open floor and he is better in that than Luka. And his "only problem" is that he can't be a superb point guard because he does not shoot... "Only" is in quotes because lack of shooting makes him limited in a lot of other areas and therefore Luka is better.

I can probably point out a couple of hundred NBA athletes who were far more athletic than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Athleticism is hardly the sole predictor of ceiling. Plenty of all time greats up there with limited athleticism alongside those two, guys like Dirk, Stockton, Nash, Sabonis, Walton, etc.

You can point that out but all things being equal a better athlete is a better athlete. Things of course are not equal so therefore we have guys like you mentioned. But if Luka was an athlete Simmons is what do you think would happen? Or Simmons had shooting ability like Luka?
Let's not go to comparisons as there are many examples of average athletes being great players. With that in mind the best players are mostly great athletes. MOSTLY with some exceptions.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I see no reason to believe that Simmons has a higher ceiling than Luka.

He is faster, more athletic, jumps higher.
He is just a better athlete overall.
He as well is deadly on open floor and he is better in that than Luka. And his "only problem" is that he can't be a superb point guard because he does not shoot... "Only" is in quotes because lack of shooting makes him limited in a lot of other areas and therefore Luka is better.

I can probably point out a couple of hundred NBA athletes who were far more athletic than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Athleticism is hardly the sole predictor of ceiling. Plenty of all time greats up there with limited athleticism alongside those two, guys like Dirk, Stockton, Nash, Sabonis, Walton, etc.

That and he already led a team to a title winning MvP while being the youngest, but I am sure that was just a fluke that the guy who has been polishing his skills at a professional level for the past odd 3-4 years comes into the league polished beyond anything Simmons was when he was at the same age.

If he had done that in the NBA then great but I’m not here to argue Euroleague vs NCAA. Simmons was the better player last year in the league that matters.

Euroleague matters, it is far superior to the NCAA and Doncic was merely 18/19 at the time. So far Doncic has won a title in a grown up league, MvP and RoY. What exactly has Simmons to show for so far?

Nah, it doesn't matter any more than NCAA. Simmons won ROY (just like Luka) and was an All-Star in his 2nd season, which Luka will have to do to keep up. He did that on a winning team that won a playoff series both years. Fringe All-Defensive player to boot. Advantage Ben

[Pg81]

He is faster, more athletic, jumps higher.
He is just a better athlete overall.
He as well is deadly on open floor and he is better in that than Luka. And his "only problem" is that he can't be a superb point guard because he does not shoot... "Only" is in quotes because lack of shooting makes him limited in a lot of other areas and therefore Luka is better.

I can probably point out a couple of hundred NBA athletes who were far more athletic than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Athleticism is hardly the sole predictor of ceiling. Plenty of all time greats up there with limited athleticism alongside those two, guys like Dirk, Stockton, Nash, Sabonis, Walton, etc.

You can point that out but all things being equal a better athlete is a better athlete. Things of course are not equal so therefore we have guys like you mentioned. But if Luka was an athlete Simmons is what do you think would happen? Or Simmons had shooting ability like Luka?
Let's not go to comparisons as there are many examples of average athletes being great players. With that in mind the best players are mostly great athletes. MOSTLY with some exceptions.

If it were so easy to raise your skills then Ben Simmons would not struggle so much with his shooting even after two years of intensive training. The matter of fact is that Doncic is overall far ahead to Simmons in terms of skill and Simmons will never catch up unless Doncic suffers a severe injury. You can conjure all the ifs you want but you are dead wrong that Simmons has a higher ceiling. Skills take a lot of time to develop. Mere mastery takes roughly 10000 hours give or take depending on talent. Simmons apparently has little talent for shooting. In fact there are so many examples where despite intense training some players never improved their skills in certain aspects of the game. Wilt, and Shaq, and free throw shooting would probably one of the most obvious examples. Simmons has 0 foundations for shooting, his shooting form is atrocious.

Despite being 3 years older and having superior talent around him which takes a way a lot of defensive pressure he still does not look better on offense than Doncic:

17/9/8 on 55/0!/60 vs to 21/8/6 on 50/33/71
Per 20 vs 19.6, mere 0.4 points difference

And that is not even taking into account that Simmons had the luxury of having a great team around while Doncic played on a team with limited talent which was obviously tanking and who essentially sold the entire starting 5 halfway through the season. Doncic was ergo being the sole focus of the opponents defense. In the same situation Simmons would be lucky to break 10 ppg.

And no, these all time greats were not just all time great because of athleticism. It was just as much skill if not more so.

[reflex35]

I can probably point out a couple of hundred NBA athletes who were far more athletic than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Athleticism is hardly the sole predictor of ceiling. Plenty of all time greats up there with limited athleticism alongside those two, guys like Dirk, Stockton, Nash, Sabonis, Walton, etc.

You can point that out but all things being equal a better athlete is a better athlete. Things of course are not equal so therefore we have guys like you mentioned. But if Luka was an athlete Simmons is what do you think would happen? Or Simmons had shooting ability like Luka?
Let's not go to comparisons as there are many examples of average athletes being great players. With that in mind the best players are mostly great athletes. MOSTLY with some exceptions.

If it were so easy to raise your skills then Ben Simmons would not struggle so much with his shooting even after two years of intensive training. The matter of fact is that Doncic is overall far ahead to Simmons in terms of skill and Simmons will never catch up unless Doncic suffers a severe injury. You can conjure all the ifs you want but you are dead wrong that Simmons has a higher ceiling. Skills take a lot of time to develop. Mere mastery takes roughly 10000 hours give or take depending on talent. Simmons apparently has little talent for shooting. In fact there are so many examples where despite intense training some players never improved their skills in certain aspects of the game. Wilt, and Shaq, and free throw shooting would probably one of the most obvious examples. Simmons has 0 foundations for shooting, his shooting form is atrocious.

Oh and Simmons was clearly the better player last season?
17/9/8 on 55/0!/60 is now clearly superior to 21/8/6 on 50/33/71?
Per 20 vs 19.6, mere 0.4 points difference is clearly superior?

And that is not even taking into account that Simmons has the luxury of having a great team around while Doncic plays on a team with limited talent which was obviously tanking and who essentially sold the entire starting 5 halfway through the season. Doncic was ergo being the sole focus of the opponents defense. In the same situation Simmons would be lucky to break 10 ppg.

I am not sure what are you arguing about?
Luka is a better player now and most likely will be.
I still think Simmons has a higher ceiling as a possibility if he develops midrange and 3point shooting.

[Pg81]

You can point that out but all things being equal a better athlete is a better athlete. Things of course are not equal so therefore we have guys like you mentioned. But if Luka was an athlete Simmons is what do you think would happen? Or Simmons had shooting ability like Luka?
Let's not go to comparisons as there are many examples of average athletes being great players. With that in mind the best players are mostly great athletes. MOSTLY with some exceptions.

If it were so easy to raise your skills then Ben Simmons would not struggle so much with his shooting even after two years of intensive training. The matter of fact is that Doncic is overall far ahead to Simmons in terms of skill and Simmons will never catch up unless Doncic suffers a severe injury. You can conjure all the ifs you want but you are dead wrong that Simmons has a higher ceiling. Skills take a lot of time to develop. Mere mastery takes roughly 10000 hours give or take depending on talent. Simmons apparently has little talent for shooting. In fact there are so many examples where despite intense training some players never improved their skills in certain aspects of the game. Wilt, and Shaq, and free throw shooting would probably one of the most obvious examples. Simmons has 0 foundations for shooting, his shooting form is atrocious.

Oh and Simmons was clearly the better player last season?
17/9/8 on 55/0!/60 is now clearly superior to 21/8/6 on 50/33/71?
Per 20 vs 19.6, mere 0.4 points difference is clearly superior?

And that is not even taking into account that Simmons has the luxury of having a great team around while Doncic plays on a team with limited talent which was obviously tanking and who essentially sold the entire starting 5 halfway through the season. Doncic was ergo being the sole focus of the opponents defense. In the same situation Simmons would be lucky to break 10 ppg.

I am not sure what are you arguing about?
Luka is a better player now and most likely will be.
I still think Simmons has a higher ceiling as a possibility if he develops midrange and 3point shooting.

If if if if that is all you have. There is no correlation between athleticism and skill. Skill is in the end more important than athleticism after a certain point which Luka certainly has due to sheer size and great athleticism can be lost with one or two major injuries. Name any all time great which got by solely on athleticism and no skill, I will be waiting. Even freak athletes like Shaq or Wilt had good fundamentals and were very skilled.

[reflex35]

If it were so easy to raise your skills then Ben Simmons would not struggle so much with his shooting even after two years of intensive training. The matter of fact is that Doncic is overall far ahead to Simmons in terms of skill and Simmons will never catch up unless Doncic suffers a severe injury. You can conjure all the ifs you want but you are dead wrong that Simmons has a higher ceiling. Skills take a lot of time to develop. Mere mastery takes roughly 10000 hours give or take depending on talent. Simmons apparently has little talent for shooting. In fact there are so many examples where despite intense training some players never improved their skills in certain aspects of the game. Wilt, and Shaq, and free throw shooting would probably one of the most obvious examples. Simmons has 0 foundations for shooting, his shooting form is atrocious.

Oh and Simmons was clearly the better player last season?
17/9/8 on 55/0!/60 is now clearly superior to 21/8/6 on 50/33/71?
Per 20 vs 19.6, mere 0.4 points difference is clearly superior?

And that is not even taking into account that Simmons has the luxury of having a great team around while Doncic plays on a team with limited talent which was obviously tanking and who essentially sold the entire starting 5 halfway through the season. Doncic was ergo being the sole focus of the opponents defense. In the same situation Simmons would be lucky to break 10 ppg.

I am not sure what are you arguing about?
Luka is a better player now and most likely will be.
I still think Simmons has a higher ceiling as a possibility if he develops midrange and 3point shooting.

If if if if that is all you have. There is no correlation between athleticism and skill. Skill is in the end more important than athleticism after a certain point which Luka certainly has due to sheer size and great athleticism can be lost with one or two major injuries. Name any all time great which got by solely on athleticism and no skill, I will be waiting. Even freak athletes like Shaq or Wilt had good fundamentals and were very skilled.

I am sorry but I think you are waisting your time and mine.
Both of us agree that Luka is a better player and most likely will be.

But all your points portraits Simmons as someone who is not skilled...??
I am not looking for any correlation in general. I am looking at 2 specific players.
BEN IS SKILLED and he is more athletic than Luka. That is just a fact.
You can even argue if you want who is a better passer / better rebounder / better defender / (NUMBERS PROVE THAT BEN IS) . But Luka is a better offensive player due to Simmons lack of shooting and he has other advantages over him too.

[SF_Warriors]

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

So many dumb assumptions and ignoring of common sense here.

Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving get paid because they are elite on offense, and ok on D. Comparing them to an elite defender isn't the same thing. I will agree that there is an offense bias in the game, but you're clearly overstating it.

Firstly just because Simmons doesn't shoot, doens't make him totally inept on offense. 17ppg on 56.3%= Elite. Also he does things other players can't do. He slips baseline and seals when Embiid gets high post catches. He cuts strong off post feeds. He gets deep in the key off drives.

Doncic averaged 4 more ppg on way worse efficiency. Let's not pretend one is an officiando and one is a liability.

ONe isn't a liability, but I'm not sure .545 v .582 is WAY worse efficiency. Most of us are all assuming that Doncic efficiency will go up next year. Ben Simmons didn't get that much better from year 1 to 2, but his efficiency still went up from .557 to .582 TS%. Also points are points, but 70% of Simmons shot are within 3 feet and having Embiid on the team certainly help getting Simmons open shots.

Most people assume that getting help will make Doncic more efficient. After all, Doncic was getting double-teamed really often because there was no other options. While Porzingis is in no way as good as Embiid, it will help.

I still think that both guys will be in between the 18-25 best players in the league next year, so really close to one another.

A 19 year old coming in as a number one option averaging 54.5% TS bodes very well..anyone saying different lacks understnding of nba basketball, period.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Looking at the poll I would assume defense is just tossed out the window.

[nedleeds]

I can probably point out a couple of hundred NBA athletes who were far more athletic than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Athleticism is hardly the sole predictor of ceiling. Plenty of all time greats up there with limited athleticism alongside those two, guys like Dirk, Stockton, Nash, Sabonis, Walton, etc.

You can point that out but all things being equal a better athlete is a better athlete. Things of course are not equal so therefore we have guys like you mentioned. But if Luka was an athlete Simmons is what do you think would happen? Or Simmons had shooting ability like Luka?
Let's not go to comparisons as there are many examples of average athletes being great players. With that in mind the best players are mostly great athletes. MOSTLY with some exceptions.

If it were so easy to raise your skills then Ben Simmons would not struggle so much with his shooting even after two years of intensive training. The matter of fact is that Doncic is overall far ahead to Simmons in terms of skill and Simmons will never catch up unless Doncic suffers a severe injury. You can conjure all the ifs you want but you are dead wrong that Simmons has a higher ceiling. Skills take a lot of time to develop. Mere mastery takes roughly 10000 hours give or take depending on talent. Simmons apparently has little talent for shooting. In fact there are so many examples where despite intense training some players never improved their skills in certain aspects of the game. Wilt, and Shaq, and free throw shooting would probably one of the most obvious examples. Simmons has 0 foundations for shooting, his shooting form is atrocious.

Despite being 3 years older and having superior talent around him which takes a way a lot of defensive pressure he still does not look better on offense than Doncic:

17/9/8 on 55/0!/60 vs to 21/8/6 on 50/33/71
Per 20 vs 19.6, mere 0.4 points difference

And that is not even taking into account that Simmons had the luxury of having a great team around while Doncic played on a team with limited talent which was obviously tanking and who essentially sold the entire starting 5 halfway through the season. Doncic was ergo being the sole focus of the opponents defense. In the same situation Simmons would be lucky to break 10 ppg.

And no, these all time greats were not just all time great because of athleticism. It was just as much skill if not more so.

Three years. Simmons took a whole year off after not even getting to the tournament at LSU nursing a Jones fracture with nothing to do for most of that time (you're off your feet for about 30 days after the surgery ... I had one). He doesn't have close to Luka's skill level. Luka was an average NBA athlete last year and wasn't in shape, if Luka is in NBA shape this year he's going to be amazing. He'll have NBA players who when they catch his passes can actually do something, he won't have to spend half the year with chuckers like DSJ and Barnes.

[OzThunder]

So many dumb assumptions and ignoring of common sense here.

Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving get paid because they are elite on offense, and ok on D. Comparing them to an elite defender isn't the same thing. I will agree that there is an offense bias in the game, but you're clearly overstating it.

Firstly just because Simmons doesn't shoot, doens't make him totally inept on offense. 17ppg on 56.3%= Elite. Also he does things other players can't do. He slips baseline and seals when Embiid gets high post catches. He cuts strong off post feeds. He gets deep in the key off drives.

Doncic averaged 4 more ppg on way worse efficiency. Let's not pretend one is an officiando and one is a liability.

ONe isn't a liability, but I'm not sure .545 v .582 is WAY worse efficiency. Most of us are all assuming that Doncic efficiency will go up next year. Ben Simmons didn't get that much better from year 1 to 2, but his efficiency still went up from .557 to .582 TS%. Also points are points, but 70% of Simmons shot are within 3 feet and having Embiid on the team certainly help getting Simmons open shots.

Most people assume that getting help will make Doncic more efficient. After all, Doncic was getting double-teamed really often because there was no other options. While Porzingis is in no way as good as Embiid, it will help.

I still think that both guys will be in between the 18-25 best players in the league next year, so really close to one another.

A 19 year old coming in as a number one option averaging 54.5% TS bodes very well..anyone saying different lacks understnding of nba basketball, period.

Be careful. Anyone who makes false inferences is known to be a poo poo head.

[minami]

I don´t understand why Luka is supposed to have a low ceiling. Because he is just so freaking damn good at every stage of his career and still a 'kid'? The low ceiling claim is actually a praise imo, as some people don´t want to think about Luka getting even better, which he surely will; Getting to the rim, shooting, handling, distributing, defense, athleticism...there is no reason for him not improving some of those, if not all. In fact he has the talent and the right mood for it, Wiggins he is not. In the other hand how is Simmons going to elevate himself that much higher than Luka? He is a damn fine player and i like his type but he is 3 years older and isn´t going to shoot anytime soon (see Rubio, another favourite of mine inspite of that), or become the next Magic Johnson. I just don´t get it.

Doncic is the best prospect coming from Europe since Drazen Petrovic and saying his ceiling is low is just...weird, fearful, mean. Time will tell and anything can happen but i see a superstar in the making, and i am not so sure about Simmons.

[moistnessfiscal]

Den Boncic

[jason bourne]

Nah, it doesn't matter any more than NCAA. Simmons won ROY (just like Luka) and was an All-Star in his 2nd season, which Luka will have to do to keep up. He did that on a winning team that won a playoff series both years. Fringe All-Defensive player to boot. Advantage Ben

Hell, no. Luka is the better player and the Sixers would trade Simmons for Luka in a heart-<trade-is-consummated>-beat. However, the Mavs would say, "Hell, no." Simmons could not handle the ball in crunch time and Jimmy Butler had to in order for the Sixers to advance to the ECF. Simmons is a good defensive player, but that's about it. His lack of offense hurts him in the half court, and the opposing coach just has to put a mobile C or PF on him. Jared Dudley was right in calling Simmons "average" in a half court set. He's more a point forward and transition player.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Biid, Butler, Harris, tons of shooters and specialists around you, how do you still lose? That's coz you're no-impact 11+7 player.

Doncic wouldn't have done any better. Who is he defending? Simmons had primary duty over Kawhi. You think Doncic could defend Kawhi full time for 7 games and contribute at the same level on offense?

[GeorgeMarcus]

Nah, it doesn't matter any more than NCAA. Simmons won ROY (just like Luka) and was an All-Star in his 2nd season, which Luka will have to do to keep up. He did that on a winning team that won a playoff series both years. Fringe All-Defensive player to boot. Advantage Ben

Hell, no. Luka is the better player and the Sixers would trade Simmons for Luka in a heart-<trade-is-consummated>-beat. However, the Mavs would say, "Hell, no." Simmons could not handle the ball in crunch time and Jimmy Butler had to in order for the Sixers to advance to the ECF. Simmons is a good defensive player, but that's about it. His lack of offense hurts him in the half court, and the opposing coach just has to put a mobile C or PF on him. Jared Dudley was right in calling Simmons "average" in a half court set. He's more a point forward and transition player.

You’re flat out wrong about Simmons offensively. He’s clearly a positive. It’s pretty amazing he scores an efficient 17 ppg without a jump shot (while facilitating one of the league’s best offenses).

The Sixers aren’t jumping to trade Simmons for anyone. Sixers fans are very happy about that. Talk to me when Doncic is playing in May.

[76ersForLife]

Jared Dudley was right in calling Simmons "average" in a half court set. He's more a point forward and transition player.

What? Dudleys comment was moronic and was proven the next game when Simmons went into BK and destroyed them without Embiid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/sports/nba-playoffs-2019-nets-76ers-game-3.amp

[Zespetjest]

Dallas on the east is instant PO team. Don’t compare east to west when talking about PO

[Tomjas]

Dallas on the east is instant PO team. Don’t compare east to west when talking about PO

Huh?

At best, they’d be fighting for 8th

[NY 567]

They're a different tier of prospect. Doncic has the ability to be the best player in basketball, Simmons is a bigger Rondo who has basically reached his ceiling. If you've been playing basketball all of your life and still can't hit anything outside of 5 feet, you don't have much upside.