MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[trueballer7]

Lebrons' name being mentioned, is the single biggest danger to derail the Lakers' season. AD, who is the primary scorer, top rebounder of the team and the top blocker in the league and the defensive presence that has made the difference insofar for the Lakers, might start seeing things differently.
He was pouting all over the place the other night and he didnt even celebrate his game clinching block at all.

You clearly have not watched many Lakers games

LeBron has carried AD in more games then the other way round. If LeBron is off the court and AD is on, the offense has been trash.

AD is carrying an injury and not playing to his maximum output. And I'm sure he doesn't care what people in real GM say.

Hm, if you had said that Howard has carried 'em both for a couple of games (namely vs Spurs), or KCP has carried 'em (like against Kings) or Kuzma carried'em once (like vs Suns) or Green saved'em vs Dallas, then perhaps I'd validate your opinion. Between the two of 'em, AD and Lebron, there has been zero carrying of one another and vice versa. I remember a lot of bricks in close games during 4th quarter, where they are saved by offensive rebounds and role players being hot.
Neither of them is MVP caliber and if there is any dispute about a mvp award, that can only regard their own team. Personally I rank AD as more influential than James.

[First Take]

Lebrons' name being mentioned, is the single biggest danger to derail the Lakers' season. AD, who is the primary scorer, top rebounder of the team and the top blocker in the league and the defensive presence that has made the difference insofar for the Lakers, might start seeing things differently.
He was pouting all over the place the other night and he didnt even celebrate his game clinching block at all.

You clearly have not watched many Lakers games

LeBron has carried AD in more games then the other way round. If LeBron is off the court and AD is on, the offense has been trash.

AD is carrying an injury and not playing to his maximum output. And I'm sure he doesn't care what people in real GM say.

Hm, if you had said that Howard has carried 'em both for a couple of games (namely vs Spurs), or KCP has carried 'em (like against Kings) or Kuzma carried'em once (like vs Suns) or Green saved'em vs Dallas, then perhaps I'd validate your opinion. Between the two of 'em, AD and Lebron, there has been zero carrying of one another and vice versa. I remember a lot of bricks in close games during 4th quarter, where they are saved by offensive rebounds and role players being hot.
Neither of them is MVP caliber and if there is any dispute about a mvp award, that can only regard their own team. Personally I rank AD as more influential than James.

I know your not a Lakers fan. I see your agenda brother!

[dreamshake]

Howard has carried 'em both for a couple of games (namely vs Spurs)

LBJ - 21/13/11, +15
AD - 25/2/11, +7
Dwight - 14/2/13, +2

KCP has carried 'em (like against Kings)

LBJ - 29/11/4, +13
AD - 17/2/5, -5
KCP - 16/0/3, -7

Green saved'em vs Dallas

LBJ - 39/16/12, +15
AD - 31/2/8, +12
Green - 14/1/1, +8

Personally I rank AD as more influential than James.

I'll agree that AD's defense has been hugely influential on the Lakers, but if it was enough that his impact was outweighing LeBron's (who's also been playing great defense btw), +/- and other impact stats should bear that out, but so far they don't. The only game you mentioned that you had a valid point on was the Suns game, which was a bad LBJ game. LeBron was clearly the best player on the floor in all the others you listed. I'll also add that tonight's game was probably the most extreme yet in terms of LeBron's impact -he had probably his most complete game yet and was a +30, as compared to AD's +6

[Pennebaker]

LeBron is the MVP right now.

Best record in the league.
His team sucks when he sits.
AD has been invisible in several games.
The Lakers do not struggle when AD is sitting or out.
LBJ leads his team in scoring and assists.
LBJ leads his team in 4th quarter scoring.
LBJ leads his team in Offensive Rating.
LBJ leads his team in Net Rating (doubling AD's).
LBJ's Defensive Rating is similar to AD's (100 vs 99).
LBJ leads the league in assists.

The Lakers are still Team LeBron and they're 11-2.

Giannis' team is 3rd in the East. Not good enough.

[Barnzy]

LeBron is the MVP right now.

Best record in the league.
His team sucks when he sits.
AD has been invisible in several games.
The Lakers do not struggle when AD is sitting or out.
LBJ leads his team in scoring and assists.
LBJ leads his team in 4th quarter scoring.
LBJ leads his team in Offensive Rating.
LBJ leads his team in Net Rating (doubling AD's).
LBJ's Defensive Rating is similar to AD's (100 vs 99).
LBJ leads the league in assists.

The Lakers are still Team LeBron and they're 11-2.

Giannis' team is 3rd in the East. Not good enough.

Indeed he is.

And that trueballer guy is a troll. Don't think I've seen him say one positive thing about LeBron.

[RB34]

LeBron is the MVP right now.

Best record in the league.
His team sucks when he sits.
AD has been invisible in several games.
The Lakers do not struggle when AD is sitting or out.
LBJ leads his team in scoring and assists.
LBJ leads his team in 4th quarter scoring.
LBJ leads his team in Offensive Rating.
LBJ leads his team in Net Rating (doubling AD's).
LBJ's Defensive Rating is similar to AD's (100 vs 99).
LBJ leads the league in assists.

The Lakers are still Team LeBron and they're 11-2.

Giannis' team is 3rd in the East. Not good enough.

Giannis leads his team in Points, Rebounds, Assists and Steals. The next closest scorer is Middleton at 18 and he’s out for weeks.

AD is putting up 25 and 10.

You think the Lakers suck when LBJ sits? Where would the Bucks sit without Giannis?

Bucks have had the hardest schedule so far.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Lebron isn't even making shots at league average efficiency and isn't helping AD at all statisticly.

[_Game7_]

Bucks better finish with a top 3 seed, if not and the Lakers are number 1, Lebron will get it. Plus Lebron has the narrative this year.

[LikeABosh]

You think the Lakers suck when LBJ sits? Where would the Bucks sit without Giannis?

Bucks have had the hardest schedule so far.

Tbf, I think the Bucks look much better without Giannis than the Lakers without LeBron. Just more quality role players. Obviously that doesn't decide who the MVP is tho

[dreamshake]

Lebron isn't even making shots at league average efficiency and isn't helping AD at all statisticly.

58 TS% is definitely above league average in general, let alone among perimeter players. What are you talking about? Also, there's more to the game than shooting %'s. For instance he leads the league in assists, isn't turning the ball over much, and is playing really good defense.

And AD's stats were fine until the last couple games. Something has looked off with him recently - seems likely related to his injury status. The only stat that's really dropped off from his career averages is rebounding - but that's more related to playing with JaVale & Dwight than LeBron.

[MisterHibachi]

LeBron is the MVP right now.

Best record in the league.
His team sucks when he sits.
AD has been invisible in several games.
The Lakers do not struggle when AD is sitting or out.
LBJ leads his team in scoring and assists.
LBJ leads his team in 4th quarter scoring.
LBJ leads his team in Offensive Rating.
LBJ leads his team in Net Rating (doubling AD's).
LBJ's Defensive Rating is similar to AD's (100 vs 99).
LBJ leads the league in assists.

The Lakers are still Team LeBron and they're 11-2.

Giannis' team is 3rd in the East. Not good enough.

You also have to consider pre season expectations, which play a big role in the MVP narrative. Lakers were expected to be 4-5th seed at best, and most were predicting a low playoff seed, while the Bucks were projected among the best teams in the league. Lakers are massively outperforming expectations and that kind of play is usually rewarded by voters.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

LeBron is the MVP right now.

Best record in the league.
His team sucks when he sits.
AD has been invisible in several games.
The Lakers do not struggle when AD is sitting or out.
LBJ leads his team in scoring and assists.
LBJ leads his team in 4th quarter scoring.
LBJ leads his team in Offensive Rating.
LBJ leads his team in Net Rating (doubling AD's).
LBJ's Defensive Rating is similar to AD's (100 vs 99).
LBJ leads the league in assists.

The Lakers are still Team LeBron and they're 11-2.

Giannis' team is 3rd in the East. Not good enough.

You basically could replace Gianni's with LBJ on all of those except wins and assists but those numbers are high because of AD. Both are worthy candidates but I think Gianni's pulls away at the end

[greekbuck34]

LeBron is the MVP right now.

Best record in the league.
His team sucks when he sits.
AD has been invisible in several games.
The Lakers do not struggle when AD is sitting or out.
LBJ leads his team in scoring and assists.
LBJ leads his team in 4th quarter scoring.
LBJ leads his team in Offensive Rating.
LBJ leads his team in Net Rating (doubling AD's).
LBJ's Defensive Rating is similar to AD's (100 vs 99).
LBJ leads the league in assists.

The Lakers are still Team LeBron and they're 11-2.

Giannis' team is 3rd in the East. Not good enough.

You also have to consider pre season expectations, which play a big role in the MVP narrative. Lakers were expected to be 4-5th seed at best, and most were predicting a low playoff seed, while the Bucks were projected among the best teams in the league. Lakers are massively outperforming expectations and that kind of play is usually rewarded by voters.

From fivethirtyeight

Projections before the season opener

Lakers 48-34
Bucks 55-27

Current projections

Lakers 53-29 +5 wins
Bucks 62-20 +7 wins

The Bucks had by far the strongest schedule so far. They played all the elite teams already except the Lakers and the 76ers and 10 out of their first 14 games are away from home. From now one they have only 2-3 tough games(Clippers, Lakers, Utah) at home until Christmas. I bet we will not remain 3rd in the East for long despite Middleton's injury.

LeBron is the MVP right now.

Best record in the league.
His team sucks when he sits.
AD has been invisible in several games.
The Lakers do not struggle when AD is sitting or out.
LBJ leads his team in scoring and assists.
LBJ leads his team in 4th quarter scoring.
LBJ leads his team in Offensive Rating.
LBJ leads his team in Net Rating (doubling AD's).
LBJ's Defensive Rating is similar to AD's (100 vs 99).
LBJ leads the league in assists.

The Lakers are still Team LeBron and they're 11-2.

Giannis' team is 3rd in the East. Not good enough.

Try to find Giannis name. Plus he is also by far the best defender on his team.

[yoyoboy]

Lebron isn't even making shots at league average efficiency and isn't helping AD at all statisticly.

LeBron: 57.4% TS
League Average: 55.6% TS

^So that's wrong. Very basic thing you should've been able to check.

AD Stats w/ LeBron (per 75 possessions): 23.8 points, 56.9% TS, 3.4 assists, 2.4 turnovers, 115.8 Team ORTG
AD Stats w/o LeBron (per 75 possessions): 29.2 points, 55.7% TS, 3.5 assists, 4.7 turnovers, 94.9 Team ORTG

I'll leave you to decide which result is better for a team. If you think because Davis scores a bit more on worse efficiency with significantly more turnovers, leading the team to far worse offensive results, then he's better off without LeBron, you're stuck in a very rudimentary mindset. If you've watched any Lakers games, it's easy to see that AD gets much easier shots when LeBron is on the floor than when he's not. The stats don't even tell the whole story because AD without LeBron is usually going up against bench units while with LeBron he's playing the starters.

[theFireBlanket]

LeBron is phenomenal but

Giannis just won his first MVP. He's better than last year, a force of nature with work ethic to be greater over time. He's not about to let up.

That three pointer he'd never hit? It's back from his rookie season. Those 6'9-6'10 days before he became a 7 footer. Before had to adjust to an even freakier physique & a coach who shut off his shooting. Are you Kidd(ing) me? Larry Drew, for all his faults knew the kid could shoot & playmake each.

Next, improve those FTs.

[homecourtloss]

You think the Lakers suck when LBJ sits? Where would the Bucks sit without Giannis?

I think Giannis should get MVP because he’s on pace to have the greatest single season advance stat resume ever, is his team’s best offensive and defensive player, etc.

But to address the bolded:

—Lakers +14.5 NET with LeBron on court
—Lakers -5.6 NET with LeBron off court (Lakers are at least +5 with every other player off court including +12.3 with AD off court )
—Lakers +20.1 points per 100 possessions better with LeBron on court than off.
—Lakers ORtg with LeBron: 114.7, equivalent to the best offense in the NBA
—Lakers ORtg without LeBron: 88.8. Lakers are 25.9 points per 100 possessions BETTER Offensively with LeBron on court.

—Bucks are +11.8 NET with Giannis on court
—Bucks +2.2 NET with Giannis off court (Bucks are a + with every player off court
— Bucks are +9.7 points per 100 possessions better with Giannis on court than off.
—Bucks ORtg with Giannis : 110.8
—Bucks ORtg without Giannis: 99.1. Bucks are 11.7 points per 100 possessions BETTER Offensively with Giannis on court.

[matt6715]

1.) Giannis
2.) Lebron
3.) Luka

---giant gap--

everyone else

[yoyoboy]

Davis w/ LeBron: +15.1
Davis w/o LeBron: -6.7
Net: +21.8

Howard w/ LeBron: +16.7
Howard w/o LeBron: +13.2
Net: +3.5

Green w/ LeBron: +16.5
Green w/o LeBron: +0.0
Net: +16.5

Bradley w/ LeBron: +16.3
Bradley w/o LeBron: -15.5
Net: +31.8

McGee w/ LeBron: +14.3
McGee w/o LeBron: +14.3
Net: +0.0

Caldwell-Pope w/ LeBron: +9.4
Caldwell-Pope w/o LeBron: +8.1
Net: +1.3

Caruso w/ LeBron: +22.2
Caruso w/o LeBron: -1.9
Net: +24.1

Kuzma w/ LeBron: +12.7
Kuzma w/o LeBron: -14.3
Net: +27.0

Rondo w/ LeBron: +32.8
Rondo w/o LeBron: -28.6
Net: +61.4

Cook w/ LeBron: +37.5
Cook w/o LeBron: +5.2
Net: +32.3

Daniels w/ LeBron: -1.2
Daniels w/o LeBron: -16.0
Net: +14.8

Dudley w/ LeBron: -1.5
Dudley w/o LeBron: -12.2
Net: +10.7

That's everyone LeBron has shared the court with this season. Only Dudley and Daniels weren't able to outscore the opposing team significantly alongside LeBron.

[igorbianch]

LeBron is the MVP right now.

Best record in the league.
His team sucks when he sits.
AD has been invisible in several games.
The Lakers do not struggle when AD is sitting or out.
LBJ leads his team in scoring and assists.
LBJ leads his team in 4th quarter scoring.
LBJ leads his team in Offensive Rating.
LBJ leads his team in Net Rating (doubling AD's).
LBJ's Defensive Rating is similar to AD's (100 vs 99).
LBJ leads the league in assists.

The Lakers are still Team LeBron and they're 11-2.

Giannis' team is 3rd in the East. Not good enough.

You also have to consider pre season expectations, which play a big role in the MVP narrative. Lakers were expected to be 4-5th seed at best, and most were predicting a low playoff seed, while the Bucks were projected among the best teams in the league. Lakers are massively outperforming expectations and that kind of play is usually rewarded by voters.

From fivethirtyeight

Projections before the season opener

Lakers 48-34
Bucks 55-27

Current projections

Lakers 53-29 +5 wins
Bucks 62-20 +7 wins

The Bucks had by far the strongest schedule so far. They played all the elite teams already except the Lakers and the 76ers and 10 out of their first 14 games are away from home. From now one they have only 2-3 tough games(Clippers, Lakers, Utah) at home until Christmas. I bet we will not remain 3rd in the East for long despite Middleton's injury.

LeBron is the MVP right now.

Best record in the league.
His team sucks when he sits.
AD has been invisible in several games.
The Lakers do not struggle when AD is sitting or out.
LBJ leads his team in scoring and assists.
LBJ leads his team in 4th quarter scoring.
LBJ leads his team in Offensive Rating.
LBJ leads his team in Net Rating (doubling AD's).
LBJ's Defensive Rating is similar to AD's (100 vs 99).
LBJ leads the league in assists.

The Lakers are still Team LeBron and they're 11-2.

Giannis' team is 3rd in the East. Not good enough.

Try to find Giannis name. Plus he is also by far the best defender on his team.

This makes no sense.

Lakers is currently the best team in the league with the best NETRTG in the league. And their offense still has a lot of room to improve.

How are the projected to win only 53 games? They would have to be 42-27 for the rest of the season which is a pretty mediocre record for a team with 2 superstars.

I can see the Bucks winning 60+ games, but the Lakers will definitely be in that range as well, barring injuries.

[Shock Defeat]

1.) Giannis
2.) Lebron
3.) Luka

---giant gap--

everyone else

The guy that's AVERAGING 40 on the 2nd best team in the West not on the list?

but you are a Mavs fan so it makes sense that you are biased against Houston.