Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[zimpy27]

Jordan had a TS% of like 54% for his last 3-peat, aged 32-34

LeBron has a TS% of 64% for his last 3 playoffs at age 32,33,35

Almost like it’s easier to score now with the rules, pace, and meaningless switching on picks

League average TS% in 1996, 54.2%; league average eFG%: 49.9%
1996 Playoffs Jordan: 56.4% TS, 49% eFG
1996 Finals Jordan: 53.8%, TS, 43.9% eFG

League average TS% in 1997, 53.6%; league average eFG%: 49.3%
1997 Playoffs Jordan: 52.4%, TS, 46.9% eFG
1997 Finals Jordan: 53.2%, TS, 48.1% eFG

League average TS% in 1998, 52.4%; league average eFG%: 47.8%
1998 Playoffs Jordan: 54.5%, TS, 47.4% eFG
1998 Finals Jordan: 51.6% TS, 43.9% eFG

I already put this in the thread but people seem to only reply to the post without these numbers, I just got tired of replying

[homecourtloss]

Almost like it’s easier to score now with the rules, pace, and meaningless switching on picks

League average TS% in 1996, 54.2%; league average eFG%: 49.9%
1996 Playoffs Jordan: 56.4% TS, 49% eFG
1996 Finals Jordan: 53.8%, TS, 43.9% eFG

League average TS% in 1997, 53.6%; league average eFG%: 49.3%
1997 Playoffs Jordan: 52.4%, TS, 46.9% eFG
1997 Finals Jordan: 53.2%, TS, 48.1% eFG

League average TS% in 1998, 52.4%; league average eFG%: 47.8%
1998 Playoffs Jordan: 54.5%, TS, 47.4% eFG
1998 Finals Jordan: 51.6% TS, 43.9% eFG

I already put this in the thread but people seem to only reply to the post without these numbers, I just got tired of replying

Added LeBron’s Numbers

League average TS% in 1996, 54.2%; league average eFG%: 49.9%
1996 Playoffs Jordan: 56.4% TS, 49% eFG
1996 Finals Jordan: 53.8%, TS, 43.9% eFG

League average TS% in 1997, 53.6%; league average eFG%: 49.3%
1997 Playoffs Jordan: 52.4%, TS, 46.9% eFG
1997 Finals Jordan: 53.2%, TS, 48.1% eFG

League average TS% in 1998, 52.4%; league average eFG%: 47.8%
1998 Playoffs Jordan: 54.5%, TS, 47.4% eFG
1998 Finals Jordan: 51.6% TS, 43.9% eFG


League average TS% in 2014, 54.1%; league average eFG%: 50.1%
2014 Playoffs LeBron: 66.8%, TS, 61.6% eFG
2014 Finals LeBron: 67.9% TS, 64.8% eFG

League average TS% in 2015, 53.4%; league average eFG%: 49.6%
2015 Playoffs LeBron: 48.7%, TS, 44.0% eFG
2015 Finals LeBron: 47.7% TS, 43.1% eFG

League average TS% in 2016: 54.1%; league average eFG%: 50.2%
2016 Playoffs LeBron: 58.5% TS, 56.4% eFG
2016Finals LeBron: 56.2% TS, 53.3% eFG

League average TS% in 2017, 55.2%; league average eFG%: 51.4%
2017 Playoffs LeBron: 64.9% TS, 62.2% eFG
2017 Finals LeBron: 63.0%, TS, 61.5% eFG

League average TS% in 2018, 55.6%; league average eFG%: 52.1%
2018 Playoffs LeBron: 61.9%, TS, 57.7% eFG
2018 Finals LeBron: 62.0% TS, 55.9% eFG

League average TS% in 2020, 56.5%; league average eFG%: 52.5%
2020 Playoffs LeBron: 64.7%, TS, 61.8% eFG
2020 Finals LeBron: 67.1% TS, 65.7% eFG

[twyzted]

Why do people always skip the fact that Jordan lost in 95? How is that 6 for 6?

In what round did he lose?
6 for 6 is 6 times made the finals 6 times won the finals.
Its not overly complicated.

But why is that better then losing in the finals?

I think these guys are top 2 so nothing against either.

This is a good question. There is no right answer to it.
Only personal preferance.
The thing is for me atleast winning 6/6 is more impressive then 4/10. Not gonna take anything from lebron i have him as #2. But if lebron wins 6 titles he possibly could be #1.
Like take Jerry West for example went to 9 finals but won only 1, i never see him high on the list for other. I never saw him play.
But yes making the finals is better then losing earlier no doubt.
But i cant put him over someone who never lost in the finals with 6 titles&fmvp.
For me to be the greatest is being as close to "perfect" as possible.
People wont agree but i can only explain how i think it.

[Repeat 3-peat]

20 pages of LeBron fans thinking LeBron is the GOAT and the other fans disagreeing.

Nothing has changed.

[Stillwater]

Funny thing is there really isnt much to be said at this point. its all been preached forever and nobody in one camp is wavering their stance. I grew up a MJ fan and for me he is a legend for sure... but rings are a team sport trophy and Lebron is the far better leader and makes his **** teammates look like studs whereas MJs team was actually legit.
The one thing people ignore when they talk about Leborn chasing it, is MJ held CHI hostage with his ridiculous paycheck at a time before free agency was even a thing

[twyzted]

League average TS% in 1996, 54.2%; league average eFG%: 49.9%
1996 Playoffs Jordan: 56.4% TS, 49% eFG
1996 Finals Jordan: 53.8%, TS, 43.9% eFG

League average TS% in 1997, 53.6%; league average eFG%: 49.3%
1997 Playoffs Jordan: 52.4%, TS, 46.9% eFG
1997 Finals Jordan: 53.2%, TS, 48.1% eFG

League average TS% in 1998, 52.4%; league average eFG%: 47.8%
1998 Playoffs Jordan: 54.5%, TS, 47.4% eFG
1998 Finals Jordan: 51.6% TS, 43.9% eFG

I already put this in the thread but people seem to only reply to the post without these numbers, I just got tired of replying

Added LeBron’s Numbers

League average TS% in 1996, 54.2%; league average eFG%: 49.9%
1996 Playoffs Jordan: 56.4% TS, 49% eFG
1996 Finals Jordan: 53.8%, TS, 43.9% eFG

League average TS% in 1997, 53.6%; league average eFG%: 49.3%
1997 Playoffs Jordan: 52.4%, TS, 46.9% eFG
1997 Finals Jordan: 53.2%, TS, 48.1% eFG

League average TS% in 1998, 52.4%; league average eFG%: 47.8%
1998 Playoffs Jordan: 54.5%, TS, 47.4% eFG
1998 Finals Jordan: 51.6% TS, 43.9% eFG


League average TS% in 2014, 54.1%; league average eFG%: 50.1%
2014 Playoffs LeBron: 66.8%, TS, 61.6% eFG
2014 Finals LeBron: 67.9% TS, 64.8% eFG

League average TS% in 2015, 53.4%; league average eFG%: 49.6%
2015 Playoffs LeBron: 48.7%, TS, 44.0% eFG
2015 Finals LeBron: 47.7% TS, 43.1% eFG

League average TS% in 2016: 54.1%; league average eFG%: 50.2%
2016 Playoffs LeBron: 58.5% TS, 56.4% eFG
2016Finals LeBron: 56.2% TS, 53.3% eFG

League average TS% in 2017, 55.2%; league average eFG%: 51.4%
2017 Playoffs LeBron: 64.9% TS, 62.2% eFG
2017 Finals LeBron: 63.0%, TS, 61.5% eFG

League average TS% in 2018, 55.6%; league average eFG%: 52.1%
2018 Playoffs LeBron: 61.9%, TS, 57.7% eFG
2018 Finals LeBron: 62.0% TS, 55.9% eFG

League average TS% in 2020, 56.5%; league average eFG%: 52.5%
2020 Playoffs LeBron: 64.7%, TS, 61.8% eFG
2020 Finals LeBron: 67.1% TS, 65.7% eFG

Playoffs
Most points in a playoff game
63 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls

24 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls scored 55 of 106 bulls points in a win.

Most consecutive field goals made in a game playoffs and finals record
13 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls vs. Los Angeles Lakers on June 5, 1991

Most free throws made in a quarter
13 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls vs. Detroit Pistons on May 21, 1991

3-game series
Most points - 135 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Miami Heat), 1992 (45.0 ppg)

Most field goals made - 53 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Miami Heat), 1992 (53/87, 60.9%)
Highest free throw percentage (min. 15 attempts) - 100% by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Washington Bullets), 1997 (15/15)

5-game series
Most points - 226 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Cleveland Cavaliers), 1988 (45.2 ppg

Most field goals made - 86 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Philadelphia 76ers), 1990

Most field goals made - 101 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Phoenix Suns), 1993

Most points
759 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls, 1992

Highest points per game average (min. 25 games)
33.45 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most 50-point games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40-point games
38 by Michael Jordan

Only player to score 15+ points in every game (min. 25 games) Michael Jordan (179 games)

Only player to record consecutive 50-point games
Michael Jordan scored 50 and 55 points in Games 1 and 2 of the 1988 Eastern Conference First Round (Chicago Bulls vs. Cleveland Cavaliers).

Most consecutive 45-point games
3 by Michael Jordan (May 9–13, 1990)

Most consecutive 20-point games
60 by Michael Jordan (June 2, 1989 – May 11, 1993)

Most consecutive 15-point games
179 by Michael Jordan. This streak entails every playoff game of Jordan's career.

Most consecutive 10-point games
179 by Michael Jordan. This streak entails every playoff game of Jordan's career

Highest Player Efficiency Rating
28.60 by Michael Jordan

Finals
Most points in a half
35 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls

Most field goals made in a half
14 by Isiah Thomas, Detroit Pistons June 19, 1988
14 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls June 3, 1992
14 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls June 16, 1993

Most points per game in an NBA Championship series
41.0 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Phoenix Suns), 1993

Only players to score at least 30 points in every game
Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Phoenix Suns), 1993 (6 games) elgin bayler, shaq, durant, rick barry and hakeem also did it.

Most steals - 14 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Los Angeles Lakers), 1991 (2.8 spg) 5 game serie.

6-game series
Most points - 246 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls 1993 (41.0 ppg)
Most field goals made - 101 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls 1993

Most consecutive 40 point games
4 by Michael Jordan (June 11–18, 1993)

Only player to score 20+ points in all games (min. 15 games)
Michael Jordan (35 games)

40-point scoring duos
41 by LeBron James and Kyrie Irving, Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden State Warriors on June 13, 2016

Most games
260 by LeBron James

Most minutes
10,049 by LeBron James

Most points
6,911 by LeBron James

Most 30-point games
110 by LeBron James

Most 20-point games
214 by LeBron James

Most 10-point games
237 by LeBron James

Most field goals made
2,457 by LeBron James

Most field goals attempted
5,006 by LeBron James

Most field goals missed
2,549 by LeBron James

Most free throws made
1,627 by LeBron James

Most steals
419 by LeBron James

Most turnovers
866 by LeBron James.

Finals

40-point scoring duos
41 by LeBron James and Kyrie Irving, Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden State Warriors on June 13, 2016

Most points by a duo in a loss
77 by LeBron James (39) and Kyrie Irving (38), Cleveland Cavaliers June 7, 2017

Most points by a trio in a loss
93 by LeBron James (39), Kyrie Irving (38), and J.R. Smith (16), Cleveland Cavaliers June 7, 2017

LeBron James (39), Kyrie Irving (38), Cleveland Cavaliers and Kevin Durant (31), Klay Thompson (30), Golden State Warriors on June 7, 2017

LeBron James (39), Kyrie Irving (38), Cleveland Cavaliers on June 7, 2017 and Kyrie Irving (40), LeBron James (31), Cleveland Cavaliers on June 9, 2017

Triple-double per game average in the NBA Finals
LeBron James: 33.6 points, 12.0 rebounds, and 10.0 assists, Cleveland Cavaliers ,2017

Most defensive rebounds
395 by LeBron James

Most turnovers
196 by LeBron James (he in fact does not have the most assists)

Most triple-doubles
10 by LeBron James

Ts% efg%
Have indeed not proven to win you more titles has it?
So basicly you proved what jkam said.
Also did you know lebron has 2 finals shooting under 40%
Lowest for Jordan 42%.
And Jordans records are much more impressive.

[bstein14]

I mentioned before, Jordan has the GOAT peak prime. Lebron is going to for sure have the GOAT career factoring in all of his years of dominating the league.

If we could take a time machine, and get 1990 MJ and put him 2010 where Lebron teamed up with Wade and Bosh.... and for a four year period prime MJ was on the Mavs, or Lakers, or Spurs, or Thunder I think he is coming away with more titles than Lebron in his 4 years with the Heat.

MJ was just too damn competitive, he literally to this day still hates the Pistons. I think he would refuse to lose to the Heat, who ended up losing in 2 of the 4 finals anyways.

[lonzo_pelota]

[ReddoverKobe]

One is clearly the Alpha of Alphas.

The other is not.

The make believe arguments are the best

"heart of a champion"
"Iron will"
"The Alpha"

Etc....etc.....etc...

[Pelly24]

Meh, whatever. All impact metrics_which can be somewhat noisy anyway—say they're the two best players ever. MJ lost to lesser teams than LeBron and took way longer to get to the finals. This "once he became the best player he never lost" cutoff is arbitrary and implicitly devalues LeBron taking *horrible* teams to the finals and conference finals when he had no business doing so. MJ doesn't have a 2011 finals collapse, sure, but he did get the ball stolen from him by Nick Anderson and lose to the Magic in 6 games. LeBron wouldn't get that excuse at all (even though it prob. more came down to not replacing Horace Grant, but then again, LeBron is so big and strong who's to say he doesn't take over rebounding and fill out that role and still keep up his numbers?). To me, LeBron's longterm output and history of carrying even worse teams than Jordan to better regular season and postseason success before he won a chip makes the whole rings thing a draw. MJ is winning the 2011 Finals, but thats it. LeBron and MJ are tied for impact at best, but the longevity and sustained dominance really favors LeBron. He has to be considered better than 2nd three-peat MJ at this point at this point in his career.

[ReddoverKobe]

Nobody cared about making the finals and not winning it until LeBron fans used it to prop their guy.

Do you think Bird and Magic are gloating about the times they lost in the finals?

Bird and Magic dont take **** for losing in the finals like lebron does. To me magic being 5-4 and Lebron being 4-6 are more impressive then Jordans 6-0 because its who they played. Lebron is losing to Duncan and the Spurs and the warriors who are maybe the best team ever with 5 hof's. Jordan is getting three rings off the late 90's with NBA expansion and high schoolers coming into the league. Not to mention pre euro push. I say this all the time, look up the rosters of those sonic and jazz teams from 96, 97, 98.

[GreenBloodedC]

Nobody cared about making the finals and not winning it until LeBron fans used it to prop their guy.

Do you think Bird and Magic are gloating about the times they lost in the finals?

Bird and Magic dont take **** for losing in the finals like lebron does. To me magic being 5-4 and Lebron being 4-6 are more impressive then Jordans 6-0 because its who they played. Lebron is losing to Duncan and the Spurs and the warriors who are maybe the best team ever with 5 hof's. Jordan is getting three rings off the late 90's with NBA expansion and high schoolers coming into the league. Not to mention pre euro push.

Yep. Losing is more impressive.

[ReddoverKobe]

Nobody cared about making the finals and not winning it until LeBron fans used it to prop their guy.

Do you think Bird and Magic are gloating about the times they lost in the finals?

Bird and Magic dont take **** for losing in the finals like lebron does. To me magic being 5-4 and Lebron being 4-6 are more impressive then Jordans 6-0 because its who they played. Lebron is losing to Duncan and the Spurs and the warriors who are maybe the best team ever with 5 hof's. Jordan is getting three rings off the late 90's with NBA expansion and high schoolers coming into the league. Not to mention pre euro push.

Yep. Losing is more impressive.

Getting to the finals is impressive. When your playing all time great teams and players there is nothing wrong with losing. Not everyone gets to clean up on trash like Jordan did. Also why is losing before the finals okay?

[GreenBloodedC]

Bird and Magic dont take **** for losing in the finals like lebron does. To me magic being 5-4 and Lebron being 4-6 are more impressive then Jordans 6-0 because its who they played. Lebron is losing to Duncan and the Spurs and the warriors who are maybe the best team ever with 5 hof's. Jordan is getting three rings off the late 90's with NBA expansion and high schoolers coming into the league. Not to mention pre euro push.

Yep. Losing is more impressive.

Getting to the finals is impressive. When your playing all time great teams and players there is nothing wrong with losing. Not everyone gets to clean up on trash like Jordan did. Also why is losing before the finals okay?

Now Jordan's opponents were trash?

Nobody counts losing as much as LeBron fans.

[scrabbarista]

By the time 35 year-old Jordan reached the '98 Finals, he'd been playing 36 minutes per 48 hours for 7.5 months straight, while having to deal with travel between cities for 103 games.

When 35 year-old James reached the '20 Finals, he'd been playing 36 minutes per 66 hours [18 hours of extra rest per 36!] for 2.5 months, while never having to travel between any of 28 games.

One is entitled to their own opinion, but I think that if one lets those numbers sink in, it's very clear which player faced greater physical and mental drains on his way to the title. There is nothing that can or should invalidate the 2020 championship versus any other, but there is doubt in my mind about how James would have stood up to a full NBA schedule at his age, particularly with the precedent of the 2018-2019 season to guide me.

[scrabbarista]

League average TS% in 1996, 54.2%; league average eFG%: 49.9%
1996 Playoffs Jordan: 56.4% TS, 49% eFG
1996 Finals Jordan: 53.8%, TS, 43.9% eFG

League average TS% in 1997, 53.6%; league average eFG%: 49.3%
1997 Playoffs Jordan: 52.4%, TS, 46.9% eFG
1997 Finals Jordan: 53.2%, TS, 48.1% eFG

League average TS% in 1998, 52.4%; league average eFG%: 47.8%
1998 Playoffs Jordan: 54.5%, TS, 47.4% eFG
1998 Finals Jordan: 51.6% TS, 43.9% eFG

I already put this in the thread but people seem to only reply to the post without these numbers, I just got tired of replying

Added LeBron’s Numbers

League average TS% in 1996, 54.2%; league average eFG%: 49.9%
1996 Playoffs Jordan: 56.4% TS, 49% eFG
1996 Finals Jordan: 53.8%, TS, 43.9% eFG

League average TS% in 1997, 53.6%; league average eFG%: 49.3%
1997 Playoffs Jordan: 52.4%, TS, 46.9% eFG
1997 Finals Jordan: 53.2%, TS, 48.1% eFG

League average TS% in 1998, 52.4%; league average eFG%: 47.8%
1998 Playoffs Jordan: 54.5%, TS, 47.4% eFG
1998 Finals Jordan: 51.6% TS, 43.9% eFG


League average TS% in 2014, 54.1%; league average eFG%: 50.1%
2014 Playoffs LeBron: 66.8%, TS, 61.6% eFG
2014 Finals LeBron: 67.9% TS, 64.8% eFG

League average TS% in 2015, 53.4%; league average eFG%: 49.6%
2015 Playoffs LeBron: 48.7%, TS, 44.0% eFG
2015 Finals LeBron: 47.7% TS, 43.1% eFG

League average TS% in 2016: 54.1%; league average eFG%: 50.2%
2016 Playoffs LeBron: 58.5% TS, 56.4% eFG
2016Finals LeBron: 56.2% TS, 53.3% eFG

League average TS% in 2017, 55.2%; league average eFG%: 51.4%
2017 Playoffs LeBron: 64.9% TS, 62.2% eFG
2017 Finals LeBron: 63.0%, TS, 61.5% eFG

League average TS% in 2018, 55.6%; league average eFG%: 52.1%
2018 Playoffs LeBron: 61.9%, TS, 57.7% eFG
2018 Finals LeBron: 62.0% TS, 55.9% eFG

League average TS% in 2020, 56.5%; league average eFG%: 52.5%
2020 Playoffs LeBron: 64.7%, TS, 61.8% eFG
2020 Finals LeBron: 67.1% TS, 65.7% eFG

Not sure what the obsession with TS% is. (Also, it's notable that you left out all of Jordan's best runs and all of James' worst ones.) TS% is a very limited statistic that doesn't take into account role, responsibility, defense, minutes played, offensive burden relative to the team, etc., etc., etc..

If the best TS% was so important, the Utah Jazz would be World Champions right now.

They had the best TS% in the playoffs, at .616, and they lost in the First Round.

[LikeABosh]

Jordan was the MVP and best player in the league at 35...

LeBron is 36 in 2 months. Jordan was retired by then

Retired by choice. He was still the reigning regular season and finals MVP at 35 when he bounced because he had nothing left to prove. So saying Jordan wasn’t at an elite level at 35 just isn’t true...

For sure. But I'm just saying LeBron is already past that point so everything now is just gravy

[twyzted]

Meh, whatever. All impact metrics_which can be somewhat noisy anyway—say they're the two best players ever. MJ lost to lesser teams than LeBron and took way longer to get to the finals. This "once he became the best player he never lost" cutoff is arbitrary and implicitly devalues LeBron taking *horrible* teams to the finals and conference finals when he had no business doing so. MJ doesn't have a 2011 finals collapse, sure, but he did get the ball stolen from him by Nick Anderson and lose to the Magic in 6 games. LeBron wouldn't get that excuse at all (even though it prob. more came down to not replacing Horace Grant, but then again, LeBron is so big and strong who's to say he doesn't take over rebounding and fill out that role and still keep up his numbers?). To me, LeBron's longterm output and history of carrying even worse teams than Jordan to better regular season and postseason success before he won a chip makes the whole rings thing a draw. MJ is winning the 2011 Finals, but thats it. LeBron and MJ are tied for impact at best, but the longevity and sustained dominance really favors LeBron. He has to be considered better than 2nd three-peat MJ at this point at this point in his career.

Mj lost to celtics, pistons, magic and 85 bucks with highest srs in the league. Outside of the warriors. The celtics are better then every team lebron lost or won against. Pistons atleast around the spurs.
That magic was also very good.
He played the bucks as a rookie and they were very good.

And Nick anderson stole the ball?
Ray allen hit a shot against the spurs to prevent heat losing a final. Kyrie vs warriors.
Holy mental gymnastics.

[Pelly24]

By the time 35 year-old Jordan reached the '98 Finals, he'd been playing 36 minutes per 48 hours for 7.5 months straight, while having to deal with travel between cities for 103 games.

When 35 year-old James reached the '20 Finals, he'd been playing 36 minutes per 66 hours [18 hours of extra rest per 36!] for 2.5 months, while never having to travel between any of 28 games.

One is entitled to their own opinion, but I think that if one lets those numbers sink in, it's very clear which player faced greater physical and mental drains on his way to the title. There is nothing that can or should invalidate the 2020 championship versus any other, but there is doubt in my mind about how James would have stood up to a full NBA schedule at his age, particularly with the precedent of the 2018-2019 season to guide me.

Honestly, I thi the 2019 season shouldn't guide anybody, and that's what this season basically proved. In the playoffs it honestly seemed like LeBron got more athletic and springier with each round and as I've mentioned, neither this year's nor last year's teams are have been built to maximize LeBron per se. I'm honestly not convinced LeBron couldn't have had a 2018-like playoff run if AD weren't here and they stuck CJ McCollum on his team and surrounded him with a bunch of great shooters and maybe one good perimeter defender and Dwight Howard.

By 2018 I think LeBron had already played more than MJ ever did and had way more mileage on his legs. I don't think there's a lot of evidence that LeBron was going to perform worse. He gets stronger and better during a season, conserves himself and that's just how it goes.

[Pelly24]

Meh, whatever. All impact metrics_which can be somewhat noisy anyway—say they're the two best players ever. MJ lost to lesser teams than LeBron and took way longer to get to the finals. This "once he became the best player he never lost" cutoff is arbitrary and implicitly devalues LeBron taking *horrible* teams to the finals and conference finals when he had no business doing so. MJ doesn't have a 2011 finals collapse, sure, but he did get the ball stolen from him by Nick Anderson and lose to the Magic in 6 games. LeBron wouldn't get that excuse at all (even though it prob. more came down to not replacing Horace Grant, but then again, LeBron is so big and strong who's to say he doesn't take over rebounding and fill out that role and still keep up his numbers?). To me, LeBron's longterm output and history of carrying even worse teams than Jordan to better regular season and postseason success before he won a chip makes the whole rings thing a draw. MJ is winning the 2011 Finals, but thats it. LeBron and MJ are tied for impact at best, but the longevity and sustained dominance really favors LeBron. He has to be considered better than 2nd three-peat MJ at this point at this point in his career.

Mj lost to celtics, pistons, magic and 85 bucks with highest srs in the league. Outside of the warriors. The celtics are better then every team lebron lost or won against. Pistons atleast around the spurs.
That magic was also very good.
He played the bucks as a rookie and they were very good.

And Nick anderson stole the ball?
Ray allen hit a shot against the spurs to prevent heat losing a final. Kyrie vs warriors.
Holy mental gymnastics.

Lol nah yo. MJ screwed up and lost to the Magic, period. Keep that same energy.

Ray Allen did his job. LeBron scored like 20 points right before that. Kyrie was great in that finals, maybe he was kind of almost as good as Scottie Pippen for that run. Only LeBron has teammates *actually doing their job* used against him lol you just compared his teammates doing what they were literally supposed to do with MJ getting the ball stolen in an iconic mental lapse.

No shame in losing to any of those teams, but if people hold LeBron to the finals losses, than hold MJ to his making the finals less than LeBron. It only makes sense.

Also, that's just the postseason. In the regular season LeBron's dragging that '09 Cavs team to 66 wins is probably something MJ's not capable of.