2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

[BelgradeNugget]

This how the team poor without X nonsenses bothering me. Then why in the middle of the prime 26 years old MVP playing 5 minutes and 12 possesions(24 with off+def) less per game than 33 years old who had achilles injury 1 year ago player?

Simple answer. Nikola Jokic played in 10 Nuggets loses. In 9 of those games he averaged 35,2 mins. In one loss against Utah he played 15 mins. due to injury and had 24/6/6.
In Nuggets wins with him - 14, they had multiple blowouts were he played less mins. Against:
ATL - 26 mins. DEN lead was 25 pts
WAS - 31 mins. DEN lead was 33 pts
NY - 27 mins. DEN lead was 30 pts
POR - 28 mins. DEN lead was 24 pts
DAL - 25 mins. DEN lead was 31 pts - I guess you remember that game
This low minutes actually lowered his box-score stats because players who want to statpadd usually do it in garbage-time. Jok is not one of them.

Durant played 36+ minutes in 19 of 27 games, Jokic's 5 of 24. Durant's 38+ games almost half of his games, Jokic none of 24. Durant's 40+ minutes games 5.

It's tough to thinking like you, from my view.

OK I'll try again. Nuggets had a lot of blowout wins. When they do it, they play Jokic less minutes. Nets had less blowout wins so they had to play KD more minutes. In blowout wins like against WAS, ORL or blowout loses like against GSW he played less mins. Smart decision from their side.
Last year when he won MVP Jokic played 3rd most total mins.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=MIN&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals
At the end of the year he was exhausted. That was not smart from Nuggets because Jokic never load manage. So now Nuggets are smarter and play him few less minutes.
Are Nets smart in your opinion to play 33 yo player 37 mins. And again what it has to do with the fact that Jokic is having historical season?
Is your point that if he played 4.4 minutes more he wouldn't be as good or what?

[Cubbies2120]

The Nuggets had 5th hardest SOS so far.

Warriors 26th, Bucks 27th and Nets 28th.

The Nuggets have the 3rd easiest remaining strength of schedule - they'll likely start racking up the wins needed to finish top 4 in the conference which, along with Jokic's never before seen PER dominance (along with dominating all other advanced stats as well), should be enough to win him MVP.

[mademan]

The Nuggets had 5th hardest SOS so far.

Warriors 26th, Bucks 27th and Nets 28th.

The Nuggets have the 3rd easiest remaining strength of schedule - they'll likely start racking up the wins needed to finish top 4 in the conference which, along with Jokic's never before seen PER dominance (along with dominating all other advanced stats as well), should be enough to win him MVP.

Theyre also like 14-10 with Jokic. If he stays healthy, they'll win 50-55 games imo. He's that good. Jokic at 50 wins vs Steph or KD at 56-58 wins...i dunno how you dont take Jokic in that scenario if the play holds up (which is unlikely, ofc)

[Genjuro]

The Nuggets had 5th hardest SOS so far.

Warriors 26th, Bucks 27th and Nets 28th.

The Nuggets have the 3rd easiest remaining strength of schedule - they'll likely start racking up the wins needed to finish top 4 in the conference which, along with Jokic's never before seen PER dominance (along with dominating all other advanced stats as well), should be enough to win him MVP.

Theyre also like 14-10 with Jokic. If he stays healthy, they'll win 50-55 games imo. He's that good. Jokic at 50 wins vs Steph or KD at 56-58 wins...i dunno how you dont take Jokic in that scenario if the play holds up (which is unlikely, ofc)

No way they get to 55. That would mean 40-13 for the remainder of the season. 50 looks like the best-case scenario to me, almost like last season, which would be insane, playing virtually the whole season without Murray and Porter, and still would give them a chance for HCA.

Seriously, if the Nuggets win 55, Jokic should be the unanimous MVP. It is that far-fetched.

[mademan]

The Nuggets had 5th hardest SOS so far.

Warriors 26th, Bucks 27th and Nets 28th.

The Nuggets have the 3rd easiest remaining strength of schedule - they'll likely start racking up the wins needed to finish top 4 in the conference which, along with Jokic's never before seen PER dominance (along with dominating all other advanced stats as well), should be enough to win him MVP.

Theyre also like 14-10 with Jokic. If he stays healthy, they'll win 50-55 games imo. He's that good. Jokic at 50 wins vs Steph or KD at 56-58 wins...i dunno how you dont take Jokic in that scenario if the play holds up (which is unlikely, ofc)

No way they get to 55. That would mean 40-13 for the remainder of the season. 50 looks like the best-case scenario to me, almost like last season, which would be insane, playing virtually the whole season without Murray and Porter, and still would give them a chance for HCA.

Seriously, if the Nuggets win 55, Jokic should be the unanimous MVP. It is that far-fetched.

ya 40-13 would be crazy, but i think 50 is very reachable. 35-18 is doable if Jokic ends up playing almost every game cause i dont see them competing in any game against any team without him.

What's the lowest amount of wins Jokic would need to win over KD/Steph if current production for all 3 kept up? Cause Jokic taking the Nuggets to 50 wins without Murray/Porter is impressive as hell

[Genjuro]

Theyre also like 14-10 with Jokic. If he stays healthy, they'll win 50-55 games imo. He's that good. Jokic at 50 wins vs Steph or KD at 56-58 wins...i dunno how you dont take Jokic in that scenario if the play holds up (which is unlikely, ofc)

No way they get to 55. That would mean 40-13 for the remainder of the season. 50 looks like the best-case scenario to me, almost like last season, which would be insane, playing virtually the whole season without Murray and Porter, and still would give them a chance for HCA.

Seriously, if the Nuggets win 55, Jokic should be the unanimous MVP. It is that far-fetched.

ya 40-13 would be crazy, but i think 50 is very reachable. 35-18 is doable if Jokic ends up playing almost every game cause i dont see them competing in any game against any team without him.

What's the lowest amount of wins Jokic would need to win over KD/Steph if current production for all 3 kept up? Cause Jokic taking the Nuggets to 50 wins without Murray/Porter is impressive as hell

Actually 50 sounds like a psychological number, plus HCA. That might make the trick.

[moderndarwin]

Don’t fool yourself this is Curry’s to lose at this point. He’s going to be on the team on top with the best record that has a top 2 offense and defense. He’s the reason for it. He hasn’t had brilliant shot making lately but he’s the horsepower that make them a super car. And they’ve got the best car.

[JN61]

Don’t fool yourself this is Curry’s to lose at this point. He’s going to be on the team on top with the best record that has a top 2 offense and defense. He’s the reason for it. He hasn’t had brilliant shot making lately but he’s the horsepower that make them a super car. And they’ve got the best car.

HE Has media on his side no doubt. I saw NBA YouTube channel was pushing him down our throats this morning with several videos and bragging about his 30 point game. No other player would get this level of attention if they took 27 shots to get 30 points with no other categories over 4..

[TwoStarz]

The Nuggets had 5th hardest SOS so far.

Warriors 26th, Bucks 27th and Nets 28th.

The Nuggets have the 3rd easiest remaining strength of schedule - they'll likely start racking up the wins needed to finish top 4 in the conference which, along with Jokic's never before seen PER dominance (along with dominating all other advanced stats as well), should be enough to win him MVP.

Theyre also like 14-10 with Jokic. If he stays healthy, they'll win 50-55 games imo. He's that good. Jokic at 50 wins vs Steph or KD at 56-58 wins...i dunno how you dont take Jokic in that scenario if the play holds up (which is unlikely, ofc)

How does Jokic end up with 2 less wins than KD and Curry? What ifs are fun and all, but thats all they are.

There is no way Jokic ends up 2 wins less than two, you can bet me on it. GSW will end up north of 60 plus wins, not that means Curry is automatic MVP, but they will be much far ahead of Jokic in the wins column. I don't see the Nuggets winning any of their games against warriors for one.


Jokic gets cooked by good guards in the screen n roll almost every play and I don't see how they have enough offensive firepower to keep up.

For what its worth, Curry has been pretty bad for his standards for 1/3 of the season so far, making KD the deserving MVP as of right now.

[Cubbies2120]

Don’t fool yourself this is Curry’s to lose at this point. He’s going to be on the team on top with the best record that has a top 2 offense and defense. He’s the reason for it. He hasn’t had brilliant shot making lately but he’s the horsepower that make them a super car. And they’ve got the best car.

He's the reason for them being a top 2 defense?

[TwoStarz]

Don’t fool yourself this is Curry’s to lose at this point. He’s going to be on the team on top with the best record that has a top 2 offense and defense. He’s the reason for it. He hasn’t had brilliant shot making lately but he’s the horsepower that make them a super car. And they’ve got the best car.

He's the reason for them being a top 2 defense?

Hmmmm he’s definitely been a huge part of it, regardless of what you think of his size. Him and Draymond are the communicators and leaders of that defense. The metrics and eye test support that.

He sure as hell is THE reason for their top 5 offense though. Again, eye test and stats would back that up.

[Cubbies2120]

Don’t fool yourself this is Curry’s to lose at this point. He’s going to be on the team on top with the best record that has a top 2 offense and defense. He’s the reason for it. He hasn’t had brilliant shot making lately but he’s the horsepower that make them a super car. And they’ve got the best car.

He's the reason for them being a top 2 defense?

Hmmmm he’s definitely been a huge part of it, regardless of what you think of his size. Him and Draymond are the communicators and leaders of that defense. The metrics and eye test support that.

He sure as hell is THE reason for their top 5 offense though. Again, eye test and stats would back that up.

Hmm, which stats? He's giving up exactly 50% shooting on 2 point attempts against him this year (86/172). On the Warriors only Chris Chiozza is giving up a higher %.

[TwoStarz]

He's the reason for them being a top 2 defense?

Hmmmm he’s definitely been a huge part of it, regardless of what you think of his size. Him and Draymond are the communicators and leaders of that defense. The metrics and eye test support that.

He sure as hell is THE reason for their top 5 offense though. Again, eye test and stats would back that up.

Hmm, which stats? He's giving up exactly 50% shooting on 2 point attempts against him this year (86/172). On the Warriors only Chris Chiozza is giving up a higher %.

LOL what?

He is top 5 in Defensive win shares in the entire league (third behind Gobert, and his teammate Green).
He is top 10 in Drating, only behind Draymond amongst his teammates.
He leads his team in steals.
He is a top defensive rebounder at the point guard position.
All in all, he has high IQ, gives full effort and knows the schemes inside out.

But yes, your garbage stat that opponents shoot 50% against him on two point attempts is definitely telling the whole story (didn't bother to fact check this, probably not even true). Not surprising coming from you though.

Forget the eye test, simply watching you could make that conclusion, give that you even know what to watch out for. Draymond wasn't wrong when he said most people don't know really understand what they watch on defense.

[Ron Swanson]

To be fair, Steph probably has a better argument for being a bigger part of the Warriors #1 defense than Durant has for the Nets #5 defense. But neither him or KD are elite defensive catalysts/anchors that should be getting a huge amount of credit there. Both teams are currently winning more because of their defense than their offense (4th and 13th respectively). Which is thus why people are rightfully critiquing both guys' cases outside of the "1-seed" narrative, and why the MVP race is still wide open.

[Ballerhogger]

It will come down to curry and KD I don’t see Jokic winning back to back

[Richard Miller]

It will come down to curry and KD I don’t see Jokic winning back to back

Jokic winning back-to-back would bring some epic lulz, watching media trying to wrap their minds around that

[Cubbies2120]

Hmmmm he’s definitely been a huge part of it, regardless of what you think of his size. Him and Draymond are the communicators and leaders of that defense. The metrics and eye test support that.

He sure as hell is THE reason for their top 5 offense though. Again, eye test and stats would back that up.

Hmm, which stats? He's giving up exactly 50% shooting on 2 point attempts against him this year (86/172). On the Warriors only Chris Chiozza is giving up a higher %.

LOL what?

He is top 5 in Defensive win shares in the entire league (third behind Gobert, and his teammate Green). Stat that is heavily influenced by lineups you play with.
He is top 10 in Drating, only behind Draymond amongst his teammates. - Stat that is heavily influenced by lineups you play with.
He leads his team in steals. - This is a clear positive assuming he's not gambling.
He is a top defensive rebounder at the point guard position. LOL this one tells me you just watch the box score. 81.5% of his rebounds are uncontested. We used to call out Westbrook for his uncontested rebounds, but he still had a higher average than that
All in all, he has high IQ, gives full effort and knows the schemes inside out.

But yes, your garbage stat that opponents shoot 50% against him on two point attempts is definitely telling the whole story (didn't bother to fact check this, probably not even true). Not surprising coming from you though. You know what they say about assumptions, don't ya chief? Go to NBA.com, select your team, go to matchups, and search for defender = Curry. Takes 30 seconds for someone with basic computer skills to do. Probably less time than it took you in your raging mood to type out about the garbage stat Literally only 1 Warrior gives up a higher % than him. But go ahead and tell me how Curry being a traffic cone helps the team D...maybe his steals?

[TwoStarz]

Hmm, which stats? He's giving up exactly 50% shooting on 2 point attempts against him this year (86/172). On the Warriors only Chris Chiozza is giving up a higher %.

LOL what?

He is top 5 in Defensive win shares in the entire league (third behind Gobert, and his teammate Green). Stat that is heavily influenced by lineups you play with.
He is top 10 in Drating, only behind Draymond amongst his teammates. - Stat that is heavily influenced by lineups you play with.
He leads his team in steals. - This is a clear positive assuming he's not gambling.
He is a top defensive rebounder at the point guard position. LOL this one tells me you just watch the box score. 81.5% of his rebounds are uncontested. We used to call out Westbrook for his uncontested rebounds, but he still had a higher average than that
All in all, he has high IQ, gives full effort and knows the schemes inside out.

But yes, your garbage stat that opponents shoot 50% against him on two point attempts is definitely telling the whole story (didn't bother to fact check this, probably not even true). Not surprising coming from you though. You know what they say about assumptions, don't ya chief? Go to NBA.com, select your team, go to matchups, and search for defender = Curry. Takes 30 seconds for someone with basic computer skills to do. Probably less time than it took you in your raging mood to type out about the garbage stat Literally only 1 Warrior gives up a higher % than him. But go ahead and tell me how Curry being a traffic cone helps the team D...maybe his steals?

I knew you'd say the stats are heavily influenced by his teammates and lineups you play with. So predictable. Yes, defensive stats have noise but when paired with the eye test, they can tell you something, unless you are adamant on being ignorant, well then even god can't help you. I love how you think you win an debate with one liners such as "opponents shoot 50% over him and thats only second to Chiozza". It doesn't take deep analytic thought to just post that without any context. On top of that, you don't even watch a lick of warrior basketball to know what you are really talking about.

Now, back to the "heavily influenced by teammates" rebuttal. Do you even know curry's minute logs and which lineups he plays most with? He plays more minutes with the bench players out of any of the starters yet he has the second best win shares and DRTG amongst the starters. HMMM go figure, must be doing something right out there.

Again showing your poor understanding of the game. The first and most important step towards being a good rebounder is boxing out. Warriors team as whole does his really well, hence the uncontested rebounds that fall to curry sometimes. If you box out well as a team, in theory it will result in someone collecting an uncontested rebounds at some point to finish the possession. Curry is an excellent rebounder for his size BECAUSE he boxes out and doesn't CHEAT. Another one of your garbage stats "85% uncontested rebounds" doesn't disapprove that.

The reason I called your stat garbage earlier was cause that exactly what it is. Those 30 seconds would be 30 seconds more than I needed to spend on you. No ones raging here, just calling you out on your bs. It's very clear your understanding of the games only goes to the high level.

[Cubbies2120]

LOL what?

He is top 5 in Defensive win shares in the entire league (third behind Gobert, and his teammate Green). Stat that is heavily influenced by lineups you play with.
He is top 10 in Drating, only behind Draymond amongst his teammates. - Stat that is heavily influenced by lineups you play with.
He leads his team in steals. - This is a clear positive assuming he's not gambling.
He is a top defensive rebounder at the point guard position. LOL this one tells me you just watch the box score. 81.5% of his rebounds are uncontested. We used to call out Westbrook for his uncontested rebounds, but he still had a higher average than that
All in all, he has high IQ, gives full effort and knows the schemes inside out.

But yes, your garbage stat that opponents shoot 50% against him on two point attempts is definitely telling the whole story (didn't bother to fact check this, probably not even true). Not surprising coming from you though. You know what they say about assumptions, don't ya chief? Go to NBA.com, select your team, go to matchups, and search for defender = Curry. Takes 30 seconds for someone with basic computer skills to do. Probably less time than it took you in your raging mood to type out about the garbage stat Literally only 1 Warrior gives up a higher % than him. But go ahead and tell me how Curry being a traffic cone helps the team D...maybe his steals?

I knew you'd say the stats are heavily influenced by his teammates and lineups you play with. So predictable. Yes, defensive stats have noise but when paired with the eye test, they can tell you something, unless you are adamant on being ignorant, well then even god can't help you. I love how you think you win an debate with one liners such as "opponents shoot 50% over him and thats only second to Chiozza". It doesn't take deep analytic thought to just post that without any context. On top of that, you don't even watch a lick of warrior basketball to know what you are really talking about.

Now, back to the "heavily influenced by teammates" rebuttal. Do you even know curry's minute logs and which lineups he plays most with? He plays more minutes with the bench players out of any of the starters yet he has the second best win shares and DRTG amongst the starters. HMMM go figure, must be doing something right out there.

Again showing your poor understanding of the game. The first and most important step towards being a good rebounder is boxing out. Warriors team as whole does his really well, hence the uncontested rebounds that fall to curry sometimes. If you box out well as a team, in theory it will result in someone collecting an uncontested rebounds at some point to finish the possession. Curry is an excellent rebounder for his size BECAUSE he boxes out and doesn't CHEAT. Another one of your garbage stats "85% uncontested rebounds" doesn't disapprove that.

The reason I called your stat garbage earlier was cause that exactly what it is. Those 30 seconds would be 30 seconds more than I needed to spend on you. No ones raging here, just calling you out on your bs. It's very clear your understanding of the games only goes to the high level.

I refute almost every one of your points and your arguments fall back to "Eye test".

Hmm, Curry plays a lot with the 2nd unit? They'd be facing....second units of other teams then, yeah? That's a logical conclusion to come to, unless you can provide statistics showing otherwise?

So the Warriors boxing out really well and giving Curry over 4 rebounds a game uncontested = he is a great rebounder for his size? Now I know you're trolling, and I will not respond to your nonsense any further. Have fun writing up a rebuttal which won't be read

[TwoStarz]

I knew you'd say the stats are heavily influenced by his teammates and lineups you play with. So predictable. Yes, defensive stats have noise but when paired with the eye test, they can tell you something, unless you are adamant on being ignorant, well then even god can't help you. I love how you think you win an debate with one liners such as "opponents shoot 50% over him and thats only second to Chiozza". It doesn't take deep analytic thought to just post that without any context. On top of that, you don't even watch a lick of warrior basketball to know what you are really talking about.

Now, back to the "heavily influenced by teammates" rebuttal. Do you even know curry's minute logs and which lineups he plays most with? He plays more minutes with the bench players out of any of the starters yet he has the second best win shares and DRTG amongst the starters. HMMM go figure, must be doing something right out there.

Again showing your poor understanding of the game. The first and most important step towards being a good rebounder is boxing out. Warriors team as whole does his really well, hence the uncontested rebounds that fall to curry sometimes. If you box out well as a team, in theory it will result in someone collecting an uncontested rebounds at some point to finish the possession. Curry is an excellent rebounder for his size BECAUSE he boxes out and doesn't CHEAT. Another one of your garbage stats "85% uncontested rebounds" doesn't disapprove that.

The reason I called your stat garbage earlier was cause that exactly what it is. Those 30 seconds would be 30 seconds more than I needed to spend on you. No ones raging here, just calling you out on your bs. It's very clear your understanding of the games only goes to the high level.

I refute almost every one of your points and your arguments fall back to "Eye test".

Hmm, Curry plays a lot with the 2nd unit? They'd be facing....second units of other teams then, yeah? That's a logical conclusion to come to, unless you can provide statistics showing otherwise?

So the Warriors boxing out really well and giving Curry over 4 rebounds a game uncontested = he is a great rebounder for his size? Now I know you're trolling, and I will not respond to your nonsense any further. Have fun writing up a rebuttal which won't be read

No rebuttal needed, like I said, you obviously don't understand the game and now you've shown clear lack of reading comprehension. Good day and good luck to you.