Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

[MavsDirk41]

who?

Bill Russell

for the curious. Retiree player-coach Russell beat two of the best teams of his era to secure a championship with 35-40 win help(MJ needed more just to make the cf)

Something something points per game

Did James go team up with nba finals MVP/champion D Wade and allstar Chris Bosh to form a superteam? Did James get outplayed by Dirk in the 2011 finals? Also James played with a player superior to Pippen (Wade) and played with a two way dominate big in Davis which is something Jordan never had. See this can work both ways.

[MavsDirk41]

Interesting thing I saw with Broussard and Parker:

Seasons where two teammates made the all-star game:

MJ - None
Lebron - 5

Teammates who were top 5 picks in the NBA draft:

MJ- 9
Bron - 34

I knew Bron had more help, just didn't know it was by such a large margin.

Number of All-NBA & All-NBA Defensive teammates played with for their careers:
MJ- 15
Lebron- 5

Conference Finals appearances without a All-NBA/Defensive selection on his team:
MJ: 2
LBJ:7

Finals appearances with 2 all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:4
LBJ:0

Finals appearances with no all-NBA/Defensive selections on his team:
MJ:0
LBJ:5

Finals appearance with 1 All-NBA/D teammate on his team:
MJ:2
LBJ:10

In the finals
- LeBron played 31 HOF players (3.1 per series). Jordan only played 10 and 1.7 per series
- LeBron played 18 all-nba finals opponents (1.8 per series), Jordan played 6 & 1 per
- LeBron has played 10 former MVPs in the finals and Jordan only 4


I knew Jordan had more help and played in a considerably weaker era but I didn't it was by such a large margin

Jordan had more help???

Wade is better than Pippen (won a championship by himself and was finals mvp)

Davis is a two way big who is better than Horace Grant and old Rodman

Irving, Love, Ray Allen, Westbrook compared to BJ Armstrong, Bill Cartwright, Oakley, Kerr, Longley


I think its pretty obvious James has had way more help than Jordan ever did. Also how many times has James colluded with other allstars (Leonard, George, and most recently Irving again)?

[Dark Faze]

Cleveland never being able to put a long term #2 beside Bron pretty much locked him out from being #1 all time. So Jordan got lucky in that regard with Pip. LeBron likely surpasses MJ if he stays with Cleveland 90% of his career and wins 6 chips.

[MavsDirk41]

Cleveland never being able to put a long term #2 beside Bron pretty much locked him out from being #1 all time. So Jordan got lucky in that regard with Pip. LeBron likely surpasses MJ if he stays with Cleveland 90% of his career and wins 6 chips.

He could have stayed in Miami and let the Heat organization rebuild after Wade started having injury issues and Bosh had his medical issues. Nobody forced him to leave Miami, which is one of the most respected organizations in the nba with a top 3 head coach in the league. Also did you see Pippen play his first few years in the league? Pippen didnt hit the hardwood ready to go. It took him a few years. He developed under Jordan and Jackson.

[The4thHorseman]

Cleveland never being able to put a long term #2 beside Bron pretty much locked him out from being #1 all time. So Jordan got lucky in that regard with Pip. LeBron likely surpasses MJ if he stays with Cleveland 90% of his career and wins 6 chips.

He could have stayed in Miami and let the Heat organization rebuild after Wade started having injury issues and Bosh had his medical issues. Nobody forced him to leave Miami, which is one of the most respected organizations in the nba with a top 3 head coach in the league. Also did you see Pippen play his first few years in the league? Pippen didnt hit the hardwood ready to go. It took him a few years. He developed under Jordan and Jackson.

The Heat rebuilt their organization in the summer of 2010. James got (and still gets) all the blame yet Riley and the organization got none for building a superteam.

If LeBron stayed in Miami and a few other very good players were brought in that led to a title, what's the outcome in fans eyes? They're going to say the James stacked the team and only can win with in that situation. Remember, Riley doesn't take no **** from his players and calls all the shots.

It's would have been lose - lose situation for him either way if he stayed.

[MavsDirk41]

Cleveland never being able to put a long term #2 beside Bron pretty much locked him out from being #1 all time. So Jordan got lucky in that regard with Pip. LeBron likely surpasses MJ if he stays with Cleveland 90% of his career and wins 6 chips.

He could have stayed in Miami and let the Heat organization rebuild after Wade started having injury issues and Bosh had his medical issues. Nobody forced him to leave Miami, which is one of the most respected organizations in the nba with a top 3 head coach in the league. Also did you see Pippen play his first few years in the league? Pippen didnt hit the hardwood ready to go. It took him a few years. He developed under Jordan and Jackson.

The Heat rebuilt their organization in the summer of 2010. James got (and still gets) all the blame yet Riley and the organization got none for building a superteam.

If LeBron stayed in Miami and a few other very good players were brought in that led to a title, what's the outcome in fans eyes? They're going to say the James stacked the team and only can win with in that situation. Remember, Riley doesn't take no **** from his players and calls all the shots.

It's would have been lose - lose situation for him either way if he stayed.

You dont think James got with Wade that offseason about coming to Miami? You dont think it was his idea to convince Bosh to come to Miami? He left Miami, in my opinion, because Cleveland had a young superstar in the making (Irving) and a top draft pick to add another allstar. He saw an opportunity.

As far as Miami goes, they typically nail the draft (Wade, Bam, Herro) as examples and is a great FA destination.

I really dont care but i think its kind of stupid how people say Jordan got gifted Pippen and a great situation in Chicago. James had plenty of help, a HOF coach, and plenty of opportunities and allstar teammates.

[Taj FTW]

He could have stayed in Miami and let the Heat organization rebuild after Wade started having injury issues and Bosh had his medical issues. Nobody forced him to leave Miami, which is one of the most respected organizations in the nba with a top 3 head coach in the league. Also did you see Pippen play his first few years in the league? Pippen didnt hit the hardwood ready to go. It took him a few years. He developed under Jordan and Jackson.

The Heat rebuilt their organization in the summer of 2010. James got (and still gets) all the blame yet Riley and the organization got none for building a superteam.

If LeBron stayed in Miami and a few other very good players were brought in that led to a title, what's the outcome in fans eyes? They're going to say the James stacked the team and only can win with in that situation. Remember, Riley doesn't take no **** from his players and calls all the shots.

It's would have been lose - lose situation for him either way if he stayed.

You dont think James got with Wade that offseason about coming to Miami? You dont think it was his idea to convince Bosh to come to Miami? He left Miami, in my opinion, because Cleveland had a young superstar in the making (Irving) and a top draft pick to add another allstar. He saw an opportunity.

As far as Miami goes, they typically nail the draft (Wade, Bam, Herro) as examples and is a great FA destination.

I really dont care but i think its kind of stupid how people say Jordan got gifted Pippen and a great situation in Chicago. James had plenty of help, a HOF coach, and plenty of opportunities and allstar teammates.

That's because you are very biased when it comes to this discussion.

[MavsDirk41]

The Heat rebuilt their organization in the summer of 2010. James got (and still gets) all the blame yet Riley and the organization got none for building a superteam.

If LeBron stayed in Miami and a few other very good players were brought in that led to a title, what's the outcome in fans eyes? They're going to say the James stacked the team and only can win with in that situation. Remember, Riley doesn't take no **** from his players and calls all the shots.

It's would have been lose - lose situation for him either way if he stayed.

You dont think James got with Wade that offseason about coming to Miami? You dont think it was his idea to convince Bosh to come to Miami? He left Miami, in my opinion, because Cleveland had a young superstar in the making (Irving) and a top draft pick to add another allstar. He saw an opportunity.

As far as Miami goes, they typically nail the draft (Wade, Bam, Herro) as examples and is a great FA destination.

I really dont care but i think its kind of stupid how people say Jordan got gifted Pippen and a great situation in Chicago. James had plenty of help, a HOF coach, and plenty of opportunities and allstar teammates.

That's because you are very biased when it comes to this discussion.

So the Bulls drafting Pippen 3 years after Jordan entered the nba is a better situation than James playing with prime, Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis? What am i missing here lol?

[Taj FTW]

You dont think James got with Wade that offseason about coming to Miami? You dont think it was his idea to convince Bosh to come to Miami? He left Miami, in my opinion, because Cleveland had a young superstar in the making (Irving) and a top draft pick to add another allstar. He saw an opportunity.

As far as Miami goes, they typically nail the draft (Wade, Bam, Herro) as examples and is a great FA destination.

I really dont care but i think its kind of stupid how people say Jordan got gifted Pippen and a great situation in Chicago. James had plenty of help, a HOF coach, and plenty of opportunities and allstar teammates.

That's because you are very biased when it comes to this discussion.

So the Bulls drafting Pippen 3 years after Jordan entered the nba is a better situation than James playing with prime, Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis? What am i missing here lol?

Anybody claiming Wade was in his prime while playing with LeBron simply isn't being honest. That alone shows your bias.

[The4thHorseman]

He could have stayed in Miami and let the Heat organization rebuild after Wade started having injury issues and Bosh had his medical issues. Nobody forced him to leave Miami, which is one of the most respected organizations in the nba with a top 3 head coach in the league. Also did you see Pippen play his first few years in the league? Pippen didnt hit the hardwood ready to go. It took him a few years. He developed under Jordan and Jackson.

The Heat rebuilt their organization in the summer of 2010. James got (and still gets) all the blame yet Riley and the organization got none for building a superteam.

If LeBron stayed in Miami and a few other very good players were brought in that led to a title, what's the outcome in fans eyes? They're going to say the James stacked the team and only can win with in that situation. Remember, Riley doesn't take no **** from his players and calls all the shots.

It's would have been lose - lose situation for him either way if he stayed.

You dont think James got with Wade that offseason about coming to Miami? You dont think it was his idea to convince Bosh to come to Miami? He left Miami, in my opinion, because Cleveland had a young superstar in the making (Irving) and a top draft pick to add another allstar. He saw an opportunity.

As far as Miami goes, they typically nail the draft (Wade, Bam, Herro) as examples and is a great FA destination.

I really dont care but i think its kind of stupid how people say Jordan got gifted Pippen and a great situation in Chicago. James had plenty of help, a HOF coach, and plenty of opportunities and allstar teammates.

You really don't think Godfather Riley had nothing to do with it? It was just sprung on him by an approaching James out of the blue that summer? It was Wade's team, it never crossed his mind and was totally caught off guard by an aleged approaching James? Why didn't Riley and Wade oppose to making a team too good that wouldn't be respected and make then look bad? James certainly wasn't the one who signed the paychecks on any team he's played for, so therefore he never had the final say.

Yes, a great FA destination that James would have been blamed for making the team too good. Heat did that in 2010, yet never got **** on, it was all LeBron's fault

Spoelstra was not a HOF coach when the Heat did the sign and trade with Cleveland. James had no problems playing for various coaches, while MJ said he preferred Phil and would 2nd guess his first comeback if Phil wasn't the coach.

Weird you've repeatedly said that you don't care about this subject, but yet I always see your name turn up in these types of threads.

[MavsDirk41]

That's because you are very biased when it comes to this discussion.

So the Bulls drafting Pippen 3 years after Jordan entered the nba is a better situation than James playing with prime, Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis? What am i missing here lol?

Anybody claiming Wade was in his prime while playing with LeBron simply isn't being honest. That alone shows your bias.

Yea, Wade was terrible in the 2011 finals wasnt he?

[MavsDirk41]

The Heat rebuilt their organization in the summer of 2010. James got (and still gets) all the blame yet Riley and the organization got none for building a superteam.

If LeBron stayed in Miami and a few other very good players were brought in that led to a title, what's the outcome in fans eyes? They're going to say the James stacked the team and only can win with in that situation. Remember, Riley doesn't take no **** from his players and calls all the shots.

It's would have been lose - lose situation for him either way if he stayed.

You dont think James got with Wade that offseason about coming to Miami? You dont think it was his idea to convince Bosh to come to Miami? He left Miami, in my opinion, because Cleveland had a young superstar in the making (Irving) and a top draft pick to add another allstar. He saw an opportunity.

As far as Miami goes, they typically nail the draft (Wade, Bam, Herro) as examples and is a great FA destination.

I really dont care but i think its kind of stupid how people say Jordan got gifted Pippen and a great situation in Chicago. James had plenty of help, a HOF coach, and plenty of opportunities and allstar teammates.

You really don't think Godfather Riley had nothing to do with it? It was just sprung on him by an approaching James out of the blue that summer? It was Wade's team, it never crossed his mind and was totally caught off guard by an aleged approaching James? Why didn't Riley and Wade oppose to making a team too good that wouldn't be respected and make then look bad? James certainly wasn't the one who signed the paychecks on any team he's played for, so therefore he never had the final say.

Yes, a great FA destination that James would have been blamed for making the team too good. Heat did that in 2010, yet never got **** on, it was all LeBron's fault

Spoelstra was not a HOF coach when the Heat did the sign and trade with Cleveland. James had no problems playing for various coaches, while MJ said he preferred Phil and would 2nd guess his first comeback if Phil wasn't the coach.

Weird you've repeatedly said that you don't care about this subject, but yet I always see your name turn up in these types of threads.

Did Riley say “not 1, not 2, not 3, etc….”?

James had no problem getting coaches fired too…

And i get tired of posters like you constantly praising the guy while making it sound like Jordan absolutely had it on easy street his whole career. I admit Jordan had help, no problem with that. But you act like James walked on water my friend lol

[VanWest82]

Cleveland never being able to put a long term #2 beside Bron pretty much locked him out from being #1 all time. So Jordan got lucky in that regard with Pip. LeBron likely surpasses MJ if he stays with Cleveland 90% of his career and wins 6 chips.

He could have stayed in Miami and let the Heat organization rebuild after Wade started having injury issues and Bosh had his medical issues. Nobody forced him to leave Miami, which is one of the most respected organizations in the nba with a top 3 head coach in the league. Also did you see Pippen play his first few years in the league? Pippen didnt hit the hardwood ready to go. It took him a few years. He developed under Jordan and Jackson.

The Heat rebuilt their organization in the summer of 2010. James got (and still gets) all the blame yet Riley and the organization got none for building a superteam.

If LeBron stayed in Miami and a few other very good players were brought in that led to a title, what's the outcome in fans eyes? They're going to say the James stacked the team and only can win with in that situation. Remember, Riley doesn't take no **** from his players and calls all the shots.

It's would have been lose - lose situation for him either way if he stayed.

I think Lebron would have eventually been praised for staying in Miami through a rebuild and coming out the other side, especially as other stars like KD and Harden franchise hopped. Also, the criticism of Lebron isn't just that he's constantly on super teams, it's that he's constantly using his agency to interfere in the construction of those superteams. No one else has that leverage. If Lebron had not only stayed in Miami but continued winning with various rosters that Riley constructed around him, his rep would be better. We'd look back at him leaving Cavs like Garnett leaving Wolves. The Decision would still be panned though. That was a disgrace.

[Taj FTW]

So the Bulls drafting Pippen 3 years after Jordan entered the nba is a better situation than James playing with prime, Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Davis? What am i missing here lol?

Anybody claiming Wade was in his prime while playing with LeBron simply isn't being honest. That alone shows your bias.

Yea, Wade was terrible in the 2011 finals wasnt he?

So Wade's prime was 2011-2014? That's an interesting take. Never heard that one before, LOL

[The4thHorseman]

You dont think James got with Wade that offseason about coming to Miami? You dont think it was his idea to convince Bosh to come to Miami? He left Miami, in my opinion, because Cleveland had a young superstar in the making (Irving) and a top draft pick to add another allstar. He saw an opportunity.

As far as Miami goes, they typically nail the draft (Wade, Bam, Herro) as examples and is a great FA destination.

I really dont care but i think its kind of stupid how people say Jordan got gifted Pippen and a great situation in Chicago. James had plenty of help, a HOF coach, and plenty of opportunities and allstar teammates.

You really don't think Godfather Riley had nothing to do with it? It was just sprung on him by an approaching James out of the blue that summer? It was Wade's team, it never crossed his mind and was totally caught off guard by an aleged approaching James? Why didn't Riley and Wade oppose to making a team too good that wouldn't be respected and make then look bad? James certainly wasn't the one who signed the paychecks on any team he's played for, so therefore he never had the final say.

Yes, a great FA destination that James would have been blamed for making the team too good. Heat did that in 2010, yet never got **** on, it was all LeBron's fault

Spoelstra was not a HOF coach when the Heat did the sign and trade with Cleveland. James had no problems playing for various coaches, while MJ said he preferred Phil and would 2nd guess his first comeback if Phil wasn't the coach.

Weird you've repeatedly said that you don't care about this subject, but yet I always see your name turn up in these types of threads.

Did Riley say “not 1, not 2, not 3, etc….”?

James had no problem getting coaches fired too…

And i get tired of posters like you constantly praising the guy while making it sound like Jordan absolutely had it on easy street his whole career. I admit Jordan had help, no problem with that. But you act like James walked on water my friend lol

Did you have any pep rally's in high school for any of your sports team? I'm sure you did and probably heard some obscure claims on what your team was going to do. So anyone who really thought that 7 titles was going to be rattled off by the Heat is just reaching to look for another excuse to **** on LeBron. If it was set up a week prior and was advertised as a national TV special, then you'd have a point.

https://clutchpoints.com/heat-news-chris-bosh-looks-back-at-2010-heatles-pep-rally

Yes James wanted David Blatt fired, but never threatened to sit out if he wasn't. What other team hired him after that?

Show me posts of me claiming Jordan had it on easy street his whole career? I'll save you some time, you won't find any.

How would you get tired of something that you claim you don't care about???

[MavsDirk41]

Anybody claiming Wade was in his prime while playing with LeBron simply isn't being honest. That alone shows your bias.

Yea, Wade was terrible in the 2011 finals wasnt he?

So Wade's prime was 2011-2014? That's an interesting take. Never heard that one before, LOL

You gonna avoid answering how Wade performed in the finals in 2011? Yea lets not talk about that.

But its cool to go run and try to create another superteam in Cleveland.

[MavsDirk41]

You really don't think Godfather Riley had nothing to do with it? It was just sprung on him by an approaching James out of the blue that summer? It was Wade's team, it never crossed his mind and was totally caught off guard by an aleged approaching James? Why didn't Riley and Wade oppose to making a team too good that wouldn't be respected and make then look bad? James certainly wasn't the one who signed the paychecks on any team he's played for, so therefore he never had the final say.

Yes, a great FA destination that James would have been blamed for making the team too good. Heat did that in 2010, yet never got **** on, it was all LeBron's fault

Spoelstra was not a HOF coach when the Heat did the sign and trade with Cleveland. James had no problems playing for various coaches, while MJ said he preferred Phil and would 2nd guess his first comeback if Phil wasn't the coach.

Weird you've repeatedly said that you don't care about this subject, but yet I always see your name turn up in these types of threads.

Did Riley say “not 1, not 2, not 3, etc….”?

James had no problem getting coaches fired too…

And i get tired of posters like you constantly praising the guy while making it sound like Jordan absolutely had it on easy street his whole career. I admit Jordan had help, no problem with that. But you act like James walked on water my friend lol

Did you have any pep rally's in high school for any of your sports team? I'm sure you did and probably heard some obscure claims on what your team was going to do. So anyone who really thought that 7 titles was going to be rattled off by the Heat is just reaching to look for another excuse to **** on LeBron. If it was set up a week prior and was advertised as a national TV special, then you'd have a point.

https://clutchpoints.com/heat-news-chris-bosh-looks-back-at-2010-heatles-pep-rally

Yes James wanted David Blatt fired, but never threatened to sit out if he wasn't. What other team hired him after that?

Show me posts of me claiming Jordan had it on easy street his whole career? I'll save you some time, you won't find any.

How would you get tired of something that you claim you don't care about???

At a pep rally in high school i was a teenager lol whats your point? James was in his mid 20s….

Both Jordan and James won with a great supporting cast. Both had issues with management or coaches throughout their career. Jordan couldnt beat the Celtics dynasty. James was a no show in the 2011 finals. We can go back and forth all day and never change anybodys mind. I think James team hopping and colluding with other stars is something that James supporters dont want to admit happened or act like its cool. James never demanded a trade and had a right to choose his team. But i dont know of any other top 10 player who did the same in his prime.

[Taj FTW]

You really don't think Godfather Riley had nothing to do with it? It was just sprung on him by an approaching James out of the blue that summer? It was Wade's team, it never crossed his mind and was totally caught off guard by an aleged approaching James? Why didn't Riley and Wade oppose to making a team too good that wouldn't be respected and make then look bad? James certainly wasn't the one who signed the paychecks on any team he's played for, so therefore he never had the final say.

Yes, a great FA destination that James would have been blamed for making the team too good. Heat did that in 2010, yet never got **** on, it was all LeBron's fault

Spoelstra was not a HOF coach when the Heat did the sign and trade with Cleveland. James had no problems playing for various coaches, while MJ said he preferred Phil and would 2nd guess his first comeback if Phil wasn't the coach.

Weird you've repeatedly said that you don't care about this subject, but yet I always see your name turn up in these types of threads.

Did Riley say “not 1, not 2, not 3, etc….”?

James had no problem getting coaches fired too…

And i get tired of posters like you constantly praising the guy while making it sound like Jordan absolutely had it on easy street his whole career. I admit Jordan had help, no problem with that. But you act like James walked on water my friend lol

Did you have any pep rally's in high school for any of your sports team? I'm sure you did and probably heard some obscure claims on what your team was going to do. So anyone who really thought that 7 titles was going to be rattled off by the Heat is just reaching to look for another excuse to **** on LeBron. If it was set up a week prior and was advertised as a national TV special, then you'd have a point.

https://clutchpoints.com/heat-news-chris-bosh-looks-back-at-2010-heatles-pep-rally

Yes James wanted David Blatt fired, but never threatened to sit out if he wasn't. What other team hired him after that?

Show me posts of me claiming Jordan had it on easy street his whole career? I'll save you some time, you won't find any.

How would you get tired of something that you claim you don't care about???

He posts about it regularly. He cares about it deeply.

[MavsDirk41]

Did Riley say “not 1, not 2, not 3, etc….”?

James had no problem getting coaches fired too…

And i get tired of posters like you constantly praising the guy while making it sound like Jordan absolutely had it on easy street his whole career. I admit Jordan had help, no problem with that. But you act like James walked on water my friend lol

Did you have any pep rally's in high school for any of your sports team? I'm sure you did and probably heard some obscure claims on what your team was going to do. So anyone who really thought that 7 titles was going to be rattled off by the Heat is just reaching to look for another excuse to **** on LeBron. If it was set up a week prior and was advertised as a national TV special, then you'd have a point.

https://clutchpoints.com/heat-news-chris-bosh-looks-back-at-2010-heatles-pep-rally

Yes James wanted David Blatt fired, but never threatened to sit out if he wasn't. What other team hired him after that?

Show me posts of me claiming Jordan had it on easy street his whole career? I'll save you some time, you won't find any.

How would you get tired of something that you claim you don't care about???

He posts about it regularly. He cares about it deeply.

And you regularly ignore points/questions that dont fit your agenda

[OdomFan]

You're running a team competing in a one time, best of 7 series to save your life. Win and you live, lose and you don't. In drafting your team, you can take either Jordan or Lebron with the first pick.

Who are you taking?

There's one answer. Bill Russell. That's why he's the goat.

.

I corrected it for you

I'll take Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq over Russell in such a draft. Heck Ill even take a few that didn't win a ring like Ewing.