OKC look better without Harden

OhMyBosh · Post #41 » by **OhMyBosh** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:37 pm

Mass Rig wrote:All OKC needs is to get Sessions for one of the 1st round picks they got.

What's wrong with Maynor?

I'd rather trade Lamb or PJ3 for some frontcourt help. Perkins isn't always reliable and Thabeet off the bench is not going to cut it.

Post #42 » by **slick_watts** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:39 pm

OptimusOne6 wrote:I don't think the on the bench/off-the-bench numbers will accurately decipher that though.

Huh? Someone said that playing with James Harden in 2012 had an effect on Westbrook's assist making and he took opportunities away from Harden. It's objectively false, because Westbrook's assist numbers and shot taking were not really affected when Harden was in the game. Also, Westbrook's assist numbers with Harden out of the game fell dramatically from 2011 to 2012. That's as iron clad as you can get.

OptimusOne6 wrote:I don't think those numbers are usually accurate anyways. I think I read a stat showing that in 2012 Durant was like a 55% TS% when Harden wasn't out there on the court with him, yet Durant has always been a 60+% TS% type player before Harden got big minutes (2010 and 2011) and is having a 60+% TS% season again.

Numbers are numbers. They are accurate. Maybe you can be careful about drawing certain conclusions from them. But the argument, I believe, was that Harden's expanded role had an effect on Westbrook's shot taking and assist making. The numbers in this case clearly refute that claim.

OptimusOne6 wrote:Like I said, before Harden's role expanded on the team in 2012 as the team's primarily facilitator and the primary playmaker, Westbrook was an 8+ APG player because he was the primarily facilitator. When Harden took on that role, Westbrook's APG dropped by like 2-3 a game.

That's just a coincidence. I could just as easily claim that Jeff Green leaving the team made Westbrook's assists drop. Or that Royal Ivey's presence on the team made Westbrook's assists drop. I don't know the cause, but I'm reasonably sure that the drop in assists was just Westbrook playing differently because he wanted to. Losing Krstic didn't help, as Westbrook got a lot of assists to him. Ibaka is now more in that Krstic role, averaging almost 5 mid range jump shots a game and they are mostly assisted. That has had a measurable effect on Westbrook's assist numbers. Harden being more involved hasn't.

OptimusOne6 wrote:Westbrook's mentality seemed to change because of Harden's new role, maybe it's not Harden's fault but Westbrook and Brooks' fault instead but it's noticeable.

There's nothing to support that whatsoever. Maybe Westbrook is just shooting less because he wants to? Why is Durant shooting less? Why is he rebounding more? Some of the changes in the Thunder have to do with Harden leaving but Westbrook's shot taking and assist generating isn't one of them - pretty easy to prove that looking at Westbrook's tendencies playing with him and without him.

Westbrook is assisting two more FG at the rim this season compared to last. Ibaka is averaging one more assisted basket at the rim this year than last. That could easily account for 1/3 of Westbrook's assist improvement right there.

OptimusOne6 wrote:I thought some of the eye test showed that Westbrook wasn't being utilized correctly as I saw him in the corner a lot and playing without the ball a lot. Harden isn't someone that can play or move without the ball even though he should because he's a very good shooter and a much better shooter than Westbrook. He also takes a while to get into his set and for him to start his offense which is how and why he stops the ball.

Harden was prolific and effective without the ball in OKC. We ran a lot of off screen stuff with him and he was one of the best at it. Don't have the Synergy Data handy but not everything was on the ball with him, although that's where he was most effective (PnR).

OptimusOne6 wrote:Again, I think it is a bit accurate and plus Westbrook and Harden played together for the most part in 2012 anyways. It was Harden that wasn't really playing much with Westbrook and Durant out there. Westbrook and Durant played heavy minutes so for most of their minutes they played with Harden out there. The on-court/off-court stats may not be an accurate picture because of that.

Westbrook minutes with Harden: 1231
Wesbrook minutes w/o Harde: 1101

Not an appreciable difference.

garrick · Post #43 » by **garrick** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:48 pm

Harden plays iso ball and sort of kills ball movement because he needs the ball a lot to be effective. If Martin can keep playing well then yes he is better for OKC imo.

Woodsanity · Post #44 » by **Woodsanity** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:54 pm

Not only did they get someone who is cheaper than Harden to fill Harden's role just as well but they also got some nice assets. Good deal. K-Mart is incredibly underrated here. He was a much better first option than Harden.

twinthunder3 · Post #45 » by **twinthunder3** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:42 pm

Harden wasn't used correctly in OKC.

ropjhk · Post #46 » by **ropjhk** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:07 pm

Kevin Martin's shooting numbers have been great. People were down on him because he wasn't too efficient in Houston, but playing alongside better players has done wonders for him. Harden conversely has seen his shooting percentages drop now that he's relied upon as the main scorer for his team. OKC may have improved shooting and scoring wise, but Harden still provided other benefits that you don't get from Martin.

GrizzledGrizzFan · Post #47 » by **GrizzledGrizzFan** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:18 pm

I'd have to think that the Grizzlies disagree with this supposition.

Bandwagon1 · Post #48 » by **Bandwagon1** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:19 pm

Ahh yes denial is super effective!

fallacy · Post #49 » by **fallacy** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:46 pm

ropjhk wrote:Kevin Martin's shooting numbers have been great. People were down on him because he wasn't too efficient in Houston, but playing alongside better players has done wonders for him. Harden conversely has seen his shooting percentages drop now that he's relied upon as the main scorer for his team. OKC may have improved shooting and scoring wise, but Harden still provided other benefits that you don't get from Martin.

Martin has a career true shooting percentage of 60%. Durant's is 58% for comparison

GeneralNbaFan · Post #50 » by **GeneralNbaFan** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:51 pm

Man, in regular season, the teams have troubles alone to guard Westbrook and Durant.....so that they can not concentrate on the others

But playoffs is a platform, where you can not have weaknesses.... (like Perkins not to score, because other team will bury you)

spudwebb · Post #51 » by **spudwebb** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:08 am

fallacy wrote:
ropjhk wrote:Kevin Martin's shooting numbers have been great. People were down on him because he wasn't too efficient in Houston, but playing alongside better players has done wonders for him. Harden conversely has seen his shooting percentages drop now that he's relied upon as the main scorer for his team. OKC may have improved shooting and scoring wise, but Harden still provided other benefits that you don't get from Martin.

Martin has a career true shooting percentage of 60%. Durant's is 58% for comparison

Yeah ppl forgetting that Martin has always been efficient. With 2 tier 1 stars, his efficiency is looking unreal

Jimmy76 · Post #52 » by **Jimmy76** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:23 am

if im presti my main goal with martin is to make him look good so i can swing him for a center by the trade deadline

spudwebb · Post #53 » by **spudwebb** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:13 am

Make him look good? The dude averaged 20ppg for like 6 seasons. With Durant and Westbrook, you're basically giving him 10 shots with some daylight and he's getting your 20 points every game. He's been unreal.

Chri2Kng · Post #54 » by **Chri2Kng** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:32 am

spudwebb wrote:Make him look good? The dude averaged 20ppg for like 6 seasons. With Durant and Westbrook, you're basically giving him 10 shots with some daylight and he's getting your 20 points every game. He's been unreal.

K-Mart is a good player but he not Harden. Harden scare me in the playoff, K-Mart does not.

spudwebb · Post #55 » by **spudwebb** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:42 am

Chri2Kng wrote:
spudwebb wrote:Make him look good? The dude averaged 20ppg for like 6 seasons. With Durant and Westbrook, you're basically giving him 10 shots with some daylight and he's getting your 20 points every game. He's been unreal.

K-Mart is a good player but he not Harden. Harden scare me in the playoff, K-Mart does not.[/quote

I'd rather have the ball in Westbrook's hands and K-Mart spotting up than the ball in Harden's hand and Westbrook spotting up.

Volcano · Post #56 » by **Volcano** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:50 am

spudwebb wrote:I'd rather have the ball in Westbrook's hands and K-Mart spotting up than the ball in Harden's hand and Westbrook spotting up.

what's the difference? In both cases Westbrook jacks up a contested shot

Chri2Kng · Post #57 » by **Chri2Kng** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:50 am

spudwebb wrote:
Chri2Kng wrote:
spudwebb wrote:Make him look good? The dude averaged 20ppg for like 6 seasons. With Durant and Westbrook, you're basically giving him 10 shots with some daylight and he's getting your 20 points every game. He's been unreal.

K-Mart is a good player but he not Harden. Harden scare me in the playoff, K-Mart does not.[/quote

I'd rather have the ball in Westbrook's hands and K-Mart spotting up than the ball in Harden's hand and Westbrook spotting up.

The thing is Harden is better against the Lakers and a much tougher cover than K-Mart. Against a fully healthy Clippers team, doesn't matter if it K-Mart or Harden, they aren't going to be able to get pass the Clippers or Grizz with K-mart.

That my 2 cent anyway.

OptimusOne6 · Post #58 » by **OptimusOne6** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:07 am

lol at Harden being better against the Lakers.

You mean the same guy that was a complete defensive liability and averaged 16 ppg with 35% FG? Harden was probably just as bad in the Lakers series than he was in the Finals last year. The only difference was that his team won in the 2nd round so nobody cared that he played bad while his team lost in the Finals so everyone was complaining about his play.

Martin is a better shooter than Harden and probably a better scorer too. Harden is a better overall player though due to his slashing ability and playmaking ability.

EscapoTHB · Post #59 » by **EscapoTHB** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:11 am

Harden is better without okc. I think okc miss harden's playmaking more than anything.

The rockets are definitely better with harden than Martin.

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Chri2Kng · Post #60 » by **Chri2Kng** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:14 am

OptimusOne6 wrote:lol at Harden being better against the Lakers.

You mean the same guy that was a complete defensive liability and averaged 16 ppg with 35% FG? Harden was probably just as bad in the Lakers series than he was in the Finals last year. The only difference was that his team won in the 2nd round so nobody cared that he played bad while his team lost in the Finals so everyone was complaining about his play.

Martin is a better shooter than Harden and probably a better scorer too. Harden is a better overall player though due to his slashing ability and playmaking ability.

That is the reason why he is scary because he was their only playmaker. Westbrook is a SG in a PG body.