Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA

[branny]

Good read

[bbjaylive]

I love how people are acting like races are actually different.

Yeah, obviously they don't hang out with all those tall chinese kids and well tanned Scots. I mean, it's one thing to profile a race too much in any direction, or to assume that there aren't always exceptions to the rule, but you have to be kind of an idiot not to notice that there actually differences still.

Black people are able to handle higher heat and exposure to prolonged sunlight.[/racism]

Physical or cultural differences, ok, there can be a cautious but adult conversation.

But when someone starts suggesting black people have a "me first" attitude (or similar mental/personal peculiarity) because they are genetically black (instead of because they came up in a poor neighborhood) that is where it stops making sense, and starts sounding prejudice. Because of the culture we live in, this line must be carefully outlined.

There was just no need for the original statement by Jackson to mention skin color. He should have highlighted the problem with poor people seeing the NBA as their only way out or pitfalls of giving someone with no idea how to handle their money millions of dollars. There is no need to tie it to race, because those type of things are not dependent on the color of someones skin. They are dependent on how that person was raised, not by the genetics they carry.

Again, there can be an adult conversation about impoverished black culture, with the understanding that black culture is a result of more than their genetic make-up, and that simply having black skin does not mean that someone was raised or was part of that culture. But a poor white person is just as likely to come to the NBA with a "me first" attitude because the factors that cause that are independent of genetic heritage.

You are being wilfully moronic. That's basically what political correctness is all about. Reading between the lines and then pretending they aren't there and inventing strawmen. People like you are the leeches of honest debate. Anyone who is literate and not been brought up in a culture of constant race-baiting would know that Jackson was making a cultural argument and not a genetic one.

Your last sentence is as idiotic as your claim that Jackson was wrong to mention skin colour. You have no evidence to back it up and arrogantly put if forward as if it self-evident, just so as to abide by a naive concept of fairness. Larry Bird makes a mockery of your argument, seeing as he was dirt poor himself. Difference was, he grew up in the rural South, which has several cultural differences to kids living in urban northern cities.

[lorak]

2) to what extent, if any, is what he's saying true? (back then and today)

100% true (back then and now). And only political correct people wouldn't admit it.

Do you believe it is true because of black genetics, or because of the culture of poverty that many black NBA players come from?

Both. There's a reason why many blacks come from "culture of poverty".

[eagereyez]

I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.

[bbjaylive]

I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.

It's because people have made a living off race-baiting. If racism didn't exist, these people would be out of a job. Go look at MSNBC. That channel is 24 hour race-baiting nonsense.

[HB2]

and here we all tought that NBA was going to **** because of this individual 1vs1 plays and becoming an overcrowded street ball - turns out the only problem is the black players

[truth serum]

Hes not completely off but in todays overly pc world we can never discuss or the differences between cultures races etc without people whining and being overly sensitive

My thoughts exactly

[aroba]

I think issue is not racial, but cultural.
I bet young white kids growing up in hostile environments develop same 1 on 1 game as well, mostly due to the fact they are all alone by themselves out there, and respect means everything on the streets.
On the other hand, a black kid from a nice family in a nice high school will develope a within the system game, just because hes well fit into the system.
Skin color doesnt matter

[Baseline Runner]

Fail of a psychosocial perspective by Phil Jackson! It was relevant untill he tryed to explain why white kids and black kids play different.

The point he was trying to make was that blacks grew up on the playground where they have to learn the game on their own. They often develop good one on one skills but don't develop team skills since the games there are often 2 on 2, 21 or 33 (where it is every man for himself), 1 on 1 and 3 on 3. 5 on 5 full court games do occur but they are more infrequent. Likewise most whites don't grow up in the inner city (where the busy playgrounds are) but grow up in suburban environments where they learn the game in their school gyms, being mentored by coaches and playing in a structured environment. They may not develop the offensive dynamism that a playground player learns, but they do learn the fundamentals.

I can appreciate this point of view because I grew up playing with blacks (and whites and other races) in inner city playgrounds, as well as playing in the gym and being coached in my school. This still holds true to an extent today but the difference is that a lot more blacks are growing up in suburban environments as opposed to the inner city, which wasn't true in the seventies. Also even the inner city kids are getting the best of both worlds, players like Lebron James who grew up playing on the playgrounds in Akron but also received coaching and taught fundamentals at an early age.

[Neutral 123]

Fail of a psychosocial perspective by Phil Jackson! It was relevant untill he tryed to explain why white kids and black kids play different.

The point he was trying to make was that blacks grew up on the playground where they have to learn the game on their own. They often develop good one on one skills but don't develop team skills since the games there are often 2 on 2, 21 or 33 (where it is every man for himself), 1 on 1 and 3 on 3. 5 on 5 full court games do occur but they are more infrequent. Likewise most whites don't grow up in the inner city (where the busy playgrounds are) but grow up in suburban environments where they learn the game in their school gyms, being mentored by coaches and playing in a structured environment. They may not develop the offensive dynamism that a playground player learns, but they do learn the fundamentals.

I can appreciate this point of view because I grew up playing with blacks (and whites and other races) in inner city playgrounds, as well as playing in the gym and being coached in my school. This still holds true to an extent today but the difference is that a lot more blacks are growing up in suburban environments as opposed to the inner city, which wasn't true in the seventies. Also even the inner city kids are getting the best of both worlds, players like Lebron James who grew up playing on the playgrounds in Akron but also received coaching and taught fundamentals at an early age.

Yep, and this is the problem with these types of debates. A perfectly sensible post like yours is PC. It's only appropriate to turn into a foaming at the mouth racist, or you are a PC bleeding heart liberal. The problem with Phil's assessment is that he didn't explain they why, and in the U.S and even more at that time, you have racists who will take that as yet another opportunity to attack.

Access to coaching, hell even just access to a basket by yourself will make a big difference. If the courts are always occupied, you might have a harder time developing that great jump shot than if you have a basket in the backyard. One guy gets praised for his superior fundamentals and 'knowledge of the game' while the other is just a blessed athlete.

What's funny though is that we see that the one on one skills is primary to winning. The best individual players have the most team success. Once a team with these dominant one on one players develop a certain level of a team game they typically go from very good to champs. NBA defenses require teams to have guys who can get a quality shot up when no quality look is provided by running the offense.

[Neutral 123]

I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.

It's because people have made a living off race-baiting. If racism didn't exist, these people would be out of a job. Go look at MSNBC. That channel is 24 hour race-baiting nonsense.

Race baiting is about 80% of what right wing media is.

[Neutral 123]

I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.

Who shouts white power, and what is ALWAYS their message? But of course it's the fault of black people why if you shout white power you'll be perceived a certain way... I mean some people are just so dim, but they think they are making some sort of relevant point.

[Pimpwerx]

Making blanket comments based on ones limited exposure to a race or culture is...hmm...misguided. I want to say dangerous, but this is merely a sports topic, so I don't see any inherent danger in it. However, it is the opinion of one man, who we don't know is impartial or objective, who observed an unknown, but most-likely tiny, amount of black players for an unknown amount of time.

I'd posit that he isn't impartial in this, as his wording and unsubstantiated conclusions suggest he was already predisposed to think a certain way about this. I trust I'm not being unfair in this observation, as it's just based on my own anecdotal experiences.

That said, it just sounds like a dude who jumped to a conclusion that matched the prevailing, racist view of black athletes from the time, without conducting any sort of thorough research. I'm surprised some are so eager to agree with something written during a time of racial prejudice and ignorance, when it doesn't look to be a well-researched opinion, to begin with. PEACE.

[cjs55]

I don't think it's fair (at least today) to generalize basketball in to 'white' basketball vs 'black basketball'. It may have been more accurate to do so in the 70's, I don't know as I didn't pay attention to basketball in the 70's.

That said, some of what he said still holds true today. I don't think the issue is just environment. I think much of the issue comes from the fact that black players are genetically superior for playing basketball on average than the white players in the NBA (obviously does not apply to everyone, but on average). If you're white, you can only usually get by in the NBA if you are a great team player, great shooter, or a big man who doesn't have to rely on athleticism. If you look at every little white dude in the NBA, they can shoot the lights out. This is because on average, athletically, white guys just aren't going to compete with the top of the pack. So what you see is that many of the white guys who can get into NBA usually happen to be top notch in other areas to compensate. And this is why the best players have been black (unless if they are big men who don't need athleticism as much): Only a few black players thus far have been able to combine top of the line skill with top of the line athleticism like Lebron or MJ.

[maxpower88]

I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.

Who shouts white power, and what is ALWAYS their message? But of course it's the fault of black people why if you shout white power you'll be perceived a certain way... I mean some people are just so dim, but they think they are making some sort of relevant point.

I think what he was trying to say is that in general, people of non-white races can be openly proud of their race, but if a white person shows that same pride, they're perceived as being a racist. Yes the KKK has a lot to do with it but a regular white guy should be able to be proud of being his own race without that meaning anything negative to other races.

But with that said, this whole race thing is a joke, mainly because it's always just white and black. As if those are the only two races on Earth. I think discussions on race that turn into a white vs black debate are a disgrace to all races.

[Muggsy Bogues]

Bringing race into it is in bad taste, even if it is a "more likely to happen to black players" phenomena going on. Someone isn't "me-first" because they are black.

It's not in bad taste at all, since it was black American playground culture that spawned this type of heavy one-on-one basketball. As for the idea that being a sports pro was the apex of existence, that one's been popular with all sorts of people throughout the history of professional sports, and has only become more popular in the modern age, as player fame and salaries skyrocket.

[EscapoTHB]

If you think that all black kids are "me first" and can't play the team game--and that that is a function of their race--then you are a racist. That is racism. I'm sorry if you think that's PC. But it's not. There are profound economic reasons that underlie these issues. A black kid raised in the suburbs with the same opportunities as a white kid is going to come out totally different than a black kid raised in poverty in the inner city. That is a straight up fact.

The fact of the matter is that even though segregation was ended--the races are still segregated. For the most part white people aren't living around black people and vice versa. For the most part black people aren't getting the same jobs and education as white people.

I mean look at our president. Black kid--who got given a lot of the opportunities generally afforded by default to white kids--and he became the president.

There is also the problem that we incarcerate black people at a rate disproportionate to the rest of society. Which is a part of why there is so much destabilization in the inner city. And most of the charges are drug related--where they are selling drugs to...wait for it...white people.

So I mean it's completely ignorant to just say that black people play this way, white people play this way--and play that off like it's a facet of their skin color, and not an economic consideration.

[rsavaj]

Many blacks have let themselves believe that being in the NBA is one of the greatest things a person can accomplish. I believe this type of feeling is ultimately very destructive, because the only way you can live with it is to get into a heavy fantasy trip. I've seen the process develop many times, and very few players ever find happiness that way."

There are some African American players who have shown this to be true. And have professed this admittedly out loud that this is a fact.

The idea that this is a "black" thing is pretty ridiculous. Athletes often identify themselves by their sport...and once they retire, a lot of them have no idea who they are anymore. Heck, that excellent Jordan OTL profile is a great example. I know he's black but he's hardly the only athlete to have a crisis of identity once their playing days are over.

[Neutral 123]

I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.

Who shouts white power, and what is ALWAYS their message? But of course it's the fault of black people why if you shout white power you'll be perceived a certain way... I mean some people are just so dim, but they think they are making some sort of relevant point.

I think what he was trying to say is that in general, people of non-white races can be openly proud of their race, but if a white person shows that same pride, they're perceived as being a racist. Yes the KKK has a lot to do with it but a regular white guy should be able to be proud of being his own race without that meaning anything negative to other races.

But with that said, this whole race thing is a joke, mainly because it's always just white and black. As if those are the only two races on Earth. I think discussions on race that turn into a white vs black debate are a disgrace to all races.

Not true at all. People will celebrate their heritage, and white Americans are no different. That might mean acknowledging whatever European country they are linked to, or even the history of the area of the U.S they are linked to, but they do it.

There is a stark difference between a genuine celebration, and what those who typically 'celebrate' being white do. If someone feels upset that they can't shout white power or that they are proud to be white, they should blame the white racists who have hijacked these sentiments to push their racist and violent filled agenda.

[mj234eva]

Many blacks

Define many.