2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson.

[OkcSinceSGA]

AI didnt need 5,000 picks per game. He went at the defense tooth and nail.
All that jumping into ppl and getting fouls
IT will never be greater than AI until he takes 4 Stiffs to a finals and gets a game.
CASE CLOSED.

Let's not exaggerate here. The Sixers were well built around Iverson with defensive stoppers, physical players. It was by design, not because they couldn't get talent. They also had really solid depth and good coaching. Can't forget east was a joke that year besides the Bucks.

As for using screens vs ISO for 15 seconds before firing up a contested shot, IT is basically being punished for being more intelligent?

[ISayshowmee]

This thread isn't easy for me. On a personal level I'm team Iverson. I like IT but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I just want to address the unfair treatment he's getting. A 5'8 player just averaged 30 ppg on 60% TS while leading his team to the 1 seed over LeBron. It should be a bigger story than it is.

I hear ya. I love AI, but also love Isiah.But let us not forget how little Isiah willed his 76'ers all the way to the finals. I will like to answer this question after a few more seasons.......because Isiah can also prove to be a 1 year wonder.

I am a Lakers fan....so I hate Boston. But this year, I am rooting for Isiah to lead his team to the finals.....just like AI did in his young career.

[My Main Man]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Allen+Iverson&player_id1_select=Allen+Iverson&y1=2001&player_id1=iversal01&player_id2_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id2_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y2=2017&player_id2=thomais02

Isaiah Thomas is great, but I'd still prefer prime Iverson on my team.

[skones]

AI didnt need 5,000 picks per game. He went at the defense tooth and nail.
All that jumping into ppl and getting fouls
IT will never be greater than AI until he takes 4 Stiffs to a finals and gets a game.
CASE CLOSED.

Let's not exaggerate here. The Sixers were well built around Iverson with defensive stoppers, physical players. It was by design, not because they couldn't get talent. They also had really solid depth and good coaching.

As for using screens vs ISO for 15 seconds before firing up a contested shot, IT is basically being punished for being more intelligent?

"By design" is inaccurate. They attempted to nab a second star for years but came away with Toni Kukoc, Keith Van Horn, and Chris Webbers corpse.

[OkcSinceSGA]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Allen+Iverson&player_id1_select=Allen+Iverson&y1=2001&player_id1=iversal01&player_id2_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id2_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y2=2017&player_id2=thomais02

Isaiah Thomas is great, but I'd still prefer prime Iverson on my team.

Adjust for 36 minutes. Iverson played 8 minutes more and was WAY less efficient.

[ShazamDaShiznt]

you can pick this years thomas season statistics and compare to the best zeke's season statistically and the celtics thomas would win it. Now is anyone going to say that celtics thomas is better than zeke? Nope

this new era is helping point guards tremendeously with this whole spacing and refs easily rewarding point guards with free throw shots. To the point where this season they suddenly decided to reward players with free throws on the 3pt shot attempts something that would happen very rare in previous nba playoffs to keep the game rhythm going

give iverson the credit, he did it back when 6ft undersized point guard averaging 30 points per game was unheard of. He was given role players with zero offense but good defense to cover his defensive issues. Thomas at least has teammates who can score too. The best option for iverson was mckie...I mean damn....who he would pass the ball? Eric snow? If you look at early 00s sixers, every iverson teammate, beside dikembe, went nowhere after their sixers stint.

[OkcSinceSGA]

AI didnt need 5,000 picks per game. He went at the defense tooth and nail.
All that jumping into ppl and getting fouls
IT will never be greater than AI until he takes 4 Stiffs to a finals and gets a game.
CASE CLOSED.

Let's not exaggerate here. The Sixers were well built around Iverson with defensive stoppers, physical players. It was by design, not because they couldn't get talent. They also had really solid depth and good coaching.

As for using screens vs ISO for 15 seconds before firing up a contested shot, IT is basically being punished for being more intelligent?

"By design" is inaccurate. They attempted to nab a second star for years but came away with Toni Kukoc, Keith Van Horn, and Chris Webbers corpse.

It goes without saying I didn't mean they didn't want to add talent or get better pieces. Everyone does. I'm saying people always talk about how bad his 01 cast was, when it actually was pretty solid and was designed to perfectly compliment his playstyle. That's what I mean by design.

[skones]

Let's not exaggerate here. The Sixers were well built around Iverson with defensive stoppers, physical players. It was by design, not because they couldn't get talent. They also had really solid depth and good coaching.

As for using screens vs ISO for 15 seconds before firing up a contested shot, IT is basically being punished for being more intelligent?

"By design" is inaccurate. They attempted to nab a second star for years but came away with Toni Kukoc, Keith Van Horn, and Chris Webbers corpse.

It goes without saying I didn't mean they didn't want to add talent or get better pieces. Everyone does. I'm saying people always talk about how bad his 01 cast was, when it actually was pretty solid and was designed to perfectly compliment his playstyle. That's what I mean by design.

But it wasn't "by design." That's the point. You say they want to add better talent, but the fact of the matter is, Iverson won too many games for them to have the assets to nab said talent. Surrounding him with defensive guys wasn't necessarily by design so much as it was the best alternative. Those rosters were a product of circumstance. Very few players were leaving their current ball clubs to form super teams in those days.

His 01 cast was deplorable. You can't simply sweep that under the rug for the sake of your argument. His offensive support was Aaron Mckie, Eric Snow, Theo Ratliff, Tyrone Hill, and Dikembe Mutumbo. That's laughable.

[OkcSinceSGA]

you can pick this years thomas season statistics and compare to the best zeke's season statistically and the celtics thomas would win it. Now is anyone going to say that celtics thomas is better than zeke? Nope

this new era is helping point guards tremendeously with this whole spacing and refs easily rewarding point guards with free throw shots. To the point where this season they suddenly decided to reward players with free throws on the 3pt shot attempts something that would happen very rare in previous nba playoffs to keep the game rhythm going

give iverson the credit, he did it back when 6ft undersized point guard averaging 30 points per game was unheard of. He was given role players with zero offense but good defense to cover his defensive issues. Thomas at least has teammates who can score too. The best option for iverson was mckie...I mean damn....who he would pass the ball? Eric snow? If you look at early 00s sixers, every iverson teammate, beside dikembe, went nowhere after their sixers stint.

Another well thought out, fair point. His efficiency could of been hurt by teammates and IT1 individually wouldn't do well either in side by side metric comparison. I think the big difference for me in that argument is IT1 actually did play great defense (Iverson didn't) to where the gap on offense isn't quite as huge. He also led his team to a couple rings with HUGE playoff moments and clutch moments.

[Doctor MJ]

Anyone who disagrees can fight me with actual data and evidence. I'm addressing this because I see people constantly pissing on IT while Iverson is on some nostalgic pedestal and it annoys me. Both were mediocre defenders who got steals in the passing lanes but not much else (although Iverson was better defensively). Isaiah's efficiency on offense more than makes up for PG defense.

"But defense!" People need to realize PG defense was never a huge thing. Sure, big PG's like Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson who also guarded 2s and 3s. But most other hall of fame PG's didn't play a lick of defense. Stop being hypocritical.

I'm glad you made the thread by have to say:

Defense does matter.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I'm not meaning to say it's worthless. More that it's being weighted unfairly against IT when PG defense was never the main role for them. But thanks for the response, I do see your point.

I don't think we necessarily disagree, it's just that with Isiah there's actually a legit question of whether his defense is drastically worse than other point guards.

Point guards in general can't have massive positive defensive impact, but that doesn't mean that a particular point guard can't be horrific on this front.

And I think this is a question we'll be asking ourselves further this summer: Isiah merely weak, or is he ridiculously terrible on defense?
Real Plus Minus says he is indeed ridiculously terrible, so it's not that there's no statistical evidence along these lines...but Real Plus Minus is also a black box stat that, unless something's changed I'm unaware of, actually factors in height.

(Incidentally, I've long been both a +/- proponent and a Real Plus Minus skeptic. The author basically believes in factoring absolutely everything in by statistical weighting, even stuff that isn't actually basketball. Doing so improves stat performance on average, but it might be really messing with perception of Isaiah.)

[SH0KASE]

He is better shooter and manipulator of the game. They need to stop giving him calls because he is small. Dude initiates contact and gets the call every time.

How much contact did Iverson initiate? Wasn't he known for that?

I don't remember him jumping into people and getting calls.

[Hangtime84]

Prime Iverson was an MVP. Isaiah not even on the 1st team. Case closed.

Translation:

People many years ago who had no concept of the true price of inefficiency believed a ridiculous thing, so now we must all believe this ridiculous thing until humanity annihilates itself.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

People equate greatness to how "cool" a guy looks.

[FlatearthZorro]

With all due respect to Isiah Thomas, AI was much better. But then again, at this point, it is perhaps unfair to Thomas as he is on his way to reaching his prime. We will wait and see....but if you want an answer today ---- NO !!

How was he much better? This current season that Isaiah had is better than any season in Iverson's career. When I checked his stats he averages over 20 shooting low 40's in his career. Iverson was explosive but somewhat overrated considerng he was a big time volume scorer.

[FlatearthZorro]

AI didnt need 5,000 picks per game. He went at the defense tooth and nail.
All that jumping into ppl and getting fouls
IT will never be greater than AI until he takes 4 Stiffs to a finals and gets a game.
CASE CLOSED.

Let's not exaggerate here. The Sixers were well built around Iverson with defensive stoppers, physical players. It was by design, not because they couldn't get talent. They also had really solid depth and good coaching. Can't forget east was a joke that year besides the Bucks.

As for using screens vs ISO for 15 seconds before firing up a contested shot, IT is basically being punished for being more intelligent?

IT is being punished for being intelligent and efficient. Both awful things. Don't argue with these guys, most of em have never heard of stats, ever.

[Yuri Vaultin]

AI did it all without practicing though...

[sixerswillrule]

This thread isn't easy for me. On a personal level I'm team Iverson. I like IT but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I just want to address the unfair treatment he's getting. A 5'8 player just averaged 30 ppg on 60% TS while leading his team to the 1 seed over LeBron. It should be a bigger story than it is.

Funny how people always try to make short players sound even shorter, by referring to their barefoot height (when most players are listed in shoes - not IT, he's 5'9" barefoot but listed at 5'9"), or in this case taking another inch off.

IT is 5'8" (one inch off his barefoot height) like Conley is 5'11" (one inch off his barefoot height) or Curry is 6'1" (one inch off his barefoot height).

Still incredible that IT is doing this at 5'10" in shoes but no need to embellish.

[antonac]

Thomas at least has teammates who can score too.

er, does he?

I think avery bradley is great, and smart and crowder are full of hustle, but beyond bradley being ok on open 3s that's not much scoring. Horford is ok but hardly a big scorer, what was he, 11ppg?

the celtics offensive ratings utterly plummet when IT is off the floor.

if it suited people to do so they would easily get away with saying IT was the only scorer on his team.

[10DayContract]

Let's just put it this way: If both were in the league right now, and the same age, who would be viewed as better? That answers your question.

[ash_k]

Millenials, teenagers are out of the control these days---2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson

[reapaman]

IT this year is better than Iverson ever was. He's way more efficient, a much better shooter, he actually makes his teammates better, better passer, he always looks like he knows what he's doing and has the game under control, higher BB IQ, and more clutch than almost anybody.

I also don't want to hear anything about IT benefiting from the era he played in over Iverson, when I had to constantly here people say Iverson was mostly able to do what he did while he was playing because "the big man was dieing out", "the rule change in 00-01 and beyond", "the NBA being weak in talent in the early 00's", ect ... People will always come up with some excuse why a current generation player can't be better than a past one, but it usually holds little weight especially in this case.

I watched Iverson his whole career and as good as he was I never though he could make any shot and come up big in any moment. With IT I would never bet against him ... too beast and too clutch. Iverson was more Westbrook where he will shoot you out of a game just as quick as he could win you one. Way too sporadic.