If winning championships is so important for GOAT status...why do some people include Wilt in the conversation?

[chyau.00]

Have you seen his stats?

If he won more championships, there wouldnt even be a conversation....

[adjacent2bench]

I'd bet my life if there was more video of actual gameplay, not just highlights but actual games of Wilt, people would have him #1 or #2.

When all the former greats say he's the greatest player they ever saw live, I'll take their word over guys who discredit him by saying "he played against a bunch of 6 foot white guys"

[JonFromVA]

But a lot of the same people seem to include Wilt in the GOAT conversation. He only has 2 titles in a much smaller league.

a) Wilt was widely considered the GOAT before Jordan, and as we're seeing with LeBron, there's no GOAT finish line. It's just something members of the media repeat often enough that others start accepting it as fact. It's an easy slip from Greatest Player of My Lifetime to Of All Time.

b) George Mikan was like the Ty Cobb of the 40's and 50's while Wilt was the Babe Ruth of the 60's/70's. He re-wrote the record book AND the rule book. Many still consider Ruth the GOAT of Baseball even if few believe he would be in this era.

c) For those who respect championships above everything else, there's Bill Russell; and he and his Celtic's teams are the primary reason Wilt didn't win more.

The whole ideal of crowning a GOAT is kind of stupid. After all the whole point of sports is to determine a true champion through competition, but short of a time machine determining a GOAT is completely subjective. Which is probably why it's such a great topic for message boards. In other words, people are entitled to both their opinion and interpretation here, and if some people like Wilt because of his accomplishments that's just as legit as the people who discredit him for his lack of rings.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

-When he actually won titles, he did so doing his best Bill Russell impersonation and NOT scoring 30, 40, 50 a game, but focusing on defense and passing

Just seems kind of like a huge double standard to say certain players can't be the GOAT because they didn't win enough, and being GOAT isn't about stats...but then include Wilt despite only winning 2 titles as the 4th or 5th scoring option, based on his stats during his earlier years.

Exactly! The 2nd Half of his career he played the same role as Russell did in Boston and came away with only 2 titles. So I really don't see where this "if they swapped teams Wilt would've won as many rings" myth comes to play.

It's funny how 68 injuries to teammates is brought up by Wilt fans as reason they lost to Boston whereas they go mute about 1972 where NYs Willis Reed who torched him in the 1970 Finals and the following year in 1973 was the last series Wilt ever played in.....missed almost the entire season injured!! And Debrusschere was injured in the Finals and could only play in stretches.

I don't believe in GOAT in basketball but amongst C's I have him ranked #5 all time. Russell was much more coachable and successful playing the same role he won titles with in 67 & 72. He didn't have a dominant volume playoff scoring run in addition to being a defensive anchor to a title like Kareem, Shaq or Hakeem so I can't put him ahead of them based on that either.

[Tinseltown]

I could see an argument for Wilt for GOAT. It's tough because so little film exists of Wilt but he did only win one less championship than the current GOAT (LBJ)

[Pablo Novi]

IF rings matter, than Bill Russell is the GOAT; end of discussion (probably forever).
But rings ARE a TEAM achievement - and THOSE Celtics were an All-Star Team (THE team with the highest % of ALl the League's All-Stars each of those years than any other team ever).

Once the over-emphasis on rings is done away with; then IMO EVERY player who had at least 10 Great Seasons (as defined by being selected All-League 1st-team or 2nd-team) IS WORTHY of being in the GOAT discussion - and there's about 25 such players.

My GOAT list (in order):
#s 1-5: KAJ, Magic, MJ, LeBron (I have him moving up one GOAT spot per year for several years & THINK he'll continue), TD.
#s 6-10: Wilt, Dr J (including his phenomenal ABA years), Kobe, "O", Karl Maloone
#s 11-15: Shaq, Jerry West, Bird, Stockton, Pettit

[RIP Kobe]

In my opinion, as a player you're expected to win championships. Who cares how many points or rebounds you've accumulated, if those didn't help you win rings (which is the goal at the end of the year) then how can you be considered great?

[druggas]

In my opinion, as a player you're expected to win championships. Who cares how many points or rebounds you've accumulated, if those didn't help you win rings (which is the goal at the end of the year) then how can you be considered great?

In case you didn't know, scoring points and rebounding is what gives you a shot at a championship. There is no other way unless you ride the bench while your team wins for you.

[G35]

When I see a polarizing question, I always wonder how people would answer its antithesis:

Why aren't more players who have never won championships put in the GOAT conversation. Why limit it to one, two, or three titles....how about some respect for those players who have not won titles...and even more nuance how about those players who were great but did not win titles as the #1 guy e.g. Julius Erving, David Robinson, James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Oscar Robertson, Scottie Pippen.

I mean in a few weeks we might have to decide who gets the credit for the Warriors winning the title, Curry or Durant.......

[youngcrev]

Kinda curious. All the talk going on lately, and it just seems weird to me that some people say that unless a certain player gets 6 or more titles, they can't be the GOAT.

But a lot of the same people seem to include Wilt in the GOAT conversation. He only has 2 titles in a much smaller league.

I hear about how he's just so statistically dominant that you have to include him, but a few problems with that:

-Pace. Adjust for that, and he doesn't look like such an outlier anymore.
-Team strategy. His team force-fed him the ball to sell tickets, instead of trying to actually win games.
-When he actually won titles, he did so doing his best Bill Russell impersonation and NOT scoring 30, 40, 50 a game, but focusing on defense and passing

Just seems kind of like a huge double standard to say certain players can't be the GOAT because they didn't win enough, and being GOAT isn't about stats...but then include Wilt despite only winning 2 titles as the 4th or 5th scoring option, based on his stats during his earlier years.

Because that's part of the lore of the current GOAT. The combination of the dominance with the ridiculous amount of team success. Jordan set the bar pretty high for every player that came after him to get into that conversation.

[RIP Kobe]

In my opinion, as a player you're expected to win championships. Who cares how many points or rebounds you've accumulated, if those didn't help you win rings (which is the goal at the end of the year) then how can you be considered great?

In case you didn't know, scoring points and rebounding is what gives you a shot at a championship. There is no other way unless you ride the bench while your team wins for you.

Ya I get that. People are saying that lebron is "goat" after he beat Jordan's scoring record. Lol

[HotRocks34]

There are two sets of GOATs -- Talent/Peak GOATs and Career/Achievement GOATs.

Wilt is in the discussion for Talent/Peak GOATs.


TALENT/PEAK GOATS
Jordan
Kareem
LeBron
Wilt
(Shaq)


ACHIEVEMENT/CAREER GOATS
Jordan
Kareem
LeBron
Russell
Magic
Duncan



Wilt was an anomaly, a freak, a unicorn. Even more than Prime Shaq was.

He deserves his respect, even if no one is ever going to give him the "Career/Achievement" GOAT title.

[CoffeeCakez]

Because of how dominant he was and that there was nothing you could do to stop him. this is my list btw:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Kobe
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. LeBron
8. Bird
9. Russell
10. Wilt