How do you build around KAT/Embiid/Porzingis type bigs?

[AdagioPace]

You don't build around bigs in the modern NBA. It's as simple as that. A Westbrook-led team, John-Wall-led team, CP3-led-team, and on and on will always do better than a Davis-led or Boogie-led or KAT-led team. It's not a coincidence.

But KAt/AD/Boogie are worse players than Westbrook and Harden and they're not two way big men
It's like comparing Irving to David Robinson.(a guard with mediocre playmaking to a two way big)
"You don't build around Irvings.You should pick DRob in any era"


If you have a great two way big man the answer is not that clear. Only Embiid would be comparable to a cornerstone and maybe anthony davis too

[Hangtime84]

Don't do what the pelicans are have done in the past

[Side beard]

Don't do what the pelicans are have done in the past

Get injured?

[Hangtime84]

Don't do what the pelicans are have done in the past

Get injured?

Supporting cast decisions. They rushed the growth and traded their pick that became kryrie Irving.

[Ballings7]

Ideally they should play like LeBron, Draymond or KD, then stop trying to be like Hakeem or KG.

Nowadays, if you're intention is to win a championship, the ideal player to build around are wings. So you have to go towards that if you have a non-wing type franchise player.

Draymond Green is not even close to the level of KD or LeBron years ago or now. He's an impactful role-player on both ends of the ball, but he isn't someone you'd look for as a primary wing player or a hybrid forward on a team, or to go after a player in the mold of Green for #1.

From an overall standpoint, Green is not someone you build a team around to contend and win a title or more. Not a centerpiece.

You'll be in the lottery-area if you put Green as your #1 offensive option on the wing or anywhere, and don't have anyone better than him. Not even like Scottie Pippen outside of passing and handle.

[dhsilv2]

To me, Embiid is a different player than both Porz and KAT because hes already elite defensively, where both the other two are either bad or horrendous on that end.

An athletic, defense first PF is probably the optimal partner for both KAT and Porz, someone with a lot of length that can help cover the interior while also making up for both these guys slow feet on the PnR. Maybe a guy Draymond or AK47 would be idea.

As for Embiid, you probably want someone who's a bit more of a floor spacer and scorer at the PF position. Defense isn't as much of an issue because he already gives you that. Perhaps a Kevin Love or even Channing Frye would be a good fit.

TT is an interesting guy to bring up, but I do think he's better as an off the bench guy who doesn't have to set the tone defensively early in the game. Instead he can come in late and be more willing to switch on the perimeter and grab key rebounds in the 2nd half. He'd definitely be a good player next to all these guys, because you don't have to worry about spacing as all 3 are very good 3pt shooters. However I don't know if its the optimal fit from a play style wise.

Porzingis is bad on D? That is news to me

I don't think he's good enough defensively to be a title winning PF/C in this league. So in that sense yes.

He's certainly not on the level of a Draymond, Gobert, DAJ, AD, Millsap. Which is pretty much what you need from an interior defender to win a championship in this league.

AD? He's a meh defender with elite potential. The cavs were the second best team last year with the spurs the 3rd and neither have a clear better defender than porz....

[dhsilv2]

He rates alright, but I don't think you can win a title with him as your defensive anchor, hence why you need one to play in front of him at PF or behind him at C.

To me, any big man who isn't an good or very good defender might as well just be considered bad because they're never going to anchor your defense, which is the most important part of those positions in my opinion.

Obviously there are exceptions if you prove to have elite offensive impact, but outside of KAT none of them have shown that, though all are young and can still definitely improve on that end.

Even Dirk needed a DPOY caliber C playing behind him to win a title, who is probably the guy most equivalent to Porzingis and even KAT.

I think you're vastly underestimating Porzingis' defensive upside. The guy was already a net positive defender as a skinny 20-21 year twig. He's going to get stronger naturally as he fills out, and when he does he's going to be a pretty damn good defender. He doesn't have to be Gobert but he's got high upside rim protection potential.

I'm still not sure how much big men can actually improve defensively, especially after already playing two seasons. Usually for big men, the defender you get in their 2nd seasons is pretty much what you're going to get for the rest of their careers.

It's very hard to find guys who were just okay defensively for their first two years then became defensive anchors in their primes.

Even Draymond, a 2nd round pick, was already leading the league in DRPM for PFs in his second season. Gobert was 3rd among Centers in his 2nd season...

Maybe its possible, but it rarely happens, if ever.

Dray was 22 as a rookie....

[dhsilv2]

I dont get this narrative that you need an elite defender at the C position to win a championship... Do Warriors have one? Cavs ? Was Pau Gasol an elite defensive big on the Lakers ? Maybe that was true a decade ago but in the era of 3 ponters, stretch 4s and 5s centers dont have nearly as much impact defensively. Of course it is good to have a good defender at the C position but to say you cant win a Championship without one is just silly.

Warriors have Draymond at PF who plays a high amount of minutes at the 5.

But pretty much the only teams in the last 30 years NBA history to lack an elite defensive player at the 4 or 5, and won the title have been the 3 Lebron teams,and the '06 Heat. Even the Lakers had the Odom and Gasol combo.

Spurs had Duncan, Celtics had KG, Pistons had Wallace, Lakers had Shaq and Horry, Bulls had Rodman and Grant, Houston had Hakeem, Pistons had Rodman and Laimbeer.

So basically unless you have a perimeter player playing at GOAT levels you're not winning a title without an elite defender at the 4 or 5.

Green isn't a center though. He's a PF, and would be good with KP/Kat.

KG is also a PF. So was Tim Duncan. Rodman was definitely a PF. So was Horace Grant - luc longley played C. Kareem was old, Celtics had old Walton.

It would be more accurate to say you need an elite defensive PF, if we're only using historical trends.

Duncan a PF, LOL!

[NO-KG-AI]

Don't do what the pelicans are have done in the past

Get injured?

Supporting cast decisions. They rushed the growth and traded their pick that became kryrie Irving.

Wut

[Ferulci]

The cavs were the second best team last year with the spurs the 3rd and neither have a clear better defender than porz....

There is that Kawhi guy...what's his name again ?

[Amare_1_Knicks]

To me, Embiid is a different player than both Porz and KAT because hes already elite defensively, where both the other two are either bad or horrendous on that end.

An athletic, defense first PF is probably the optimal partner for both KAT and Porz, someone with a lot of length that can help cover the interior while also making up for both these guys slow feet on the PnR. Maybe a guy Draymond or AK47 would be idea.

As for Embiid, you probably want someone who's a bit more of a floor spacer and scorer at the PF position. Defense isn't as much of an issue because he already gives you that. Perhaps a Kevin Love or even Channing Frye would be a good fit.

TT is an interesting guy to bring up, but I do think he's better as an off the bench guy who doesn't have to set the tone defensively early in the game. Instead he can come in late and be more willing to switch on the perimeter and grab key rebounds in the 2nd half. He'd definitely be a good player next to all these guys, because you don't have to worry about spacing as all 3 are very good 3pt shooters. However I don't know if its the optimal fit from a play style wise.

I don't think KP is elite defensively; too many silly mistakes, unnecessary fouls, and is seemingly out of place at times on that end, but even so he's far from bad defensively. Clearly better than KAT, and does have something of a fearless edge, and a doggedly aggressive mentality on defense. It would be interesting to see him either play with savvy defenders, or in a system that even half-way focuses on defense.

Otherwise, I don't have any gripes with your post, and it seemed spot on. Embiid is elite on both ends, if only turnover prone. I don't know that we can accurately speculate on what an ideal sidekick for any of these guys would look like -- it's just so early on their careers, respectively. KAT seems to be the furthest along offensively, so I think the situation in Minny with Butler/Teague is ideal, and should work well. For KP, I'd focus on surrounding him with talent as opposed to emphasizing a sidekick. A Tyson Chandler like big/C, a high level playmaker that can get him the ball in his spots, and another guy(or two) that can create their own shot.

[dhsilv2]

The cavs were the second best team last year with the spurs the 3rd and neither have a clear better defender than porz....

There is that Kawhi guy...what's his name again ?

Not a big man defender. he wasn't that great as a defender last year either. DRAMP had him not in the top 80 in the nba. It's funny how he fell after Duncan left the spurs...I'm sure it was more about his offensive load but still I wonder about that. Porzingis did better on DRAMP, not the best or only stat but it paints the picture of them at least not being that different defensively.

Amazing how over hyped leondard defense is getting though.

[Hangtime84]

Get injured?

Supporting cast decisions. They rushed the growth and traded their pick that became kryrie Irving.

Wut

My bad wrong team

[thomchatt3rton]

If I had to build a team around, say, KP according to only ONE general principle, my principle would be to surround him with guys who are all competent and willing passers and who can all hit open shots- even if they're otherwise considered to be just "average" overall players. I'm building a stereotypical SAS or Euro style team with this principle.

Obviously it'd be ideal to have multiple other things- a PnR PG, a stud wing scorer who can create his shot and get in the paint, good defenders, guards and wings who are good rebounders, a D-first big to share the frontcourt- the list could go on forever, really.

But I thought it'd be interesting to limit myself to choosing just one single team-building philosophy that would be realistic and maybe even viable.

[Hangtime84]

Get injured?

Supporting cast decisions. They rushed the growth and traded their pick that became kryrie Irving.

Wut

**** they traded their pick for holiday my bad still wasn't a good move

[Rashoismydad]

I think the "KAT is a horrible defender" echoes are getting to be a bit much. Hes below average and most of it is from interior rotation awareness and clueless teammates. Many times Dieng would leave his man to help and KAT would not rotate to cover for him, many people would blame Dieng but in reality he did his job correctly within the defense. On the flipside, KAT did not leave his man to help or left when he shouldnt have plenty of times. Outside of system things, like straight up post or perimeter defense he is fine with flashes of being very good. The wolves as a team were lost defensively, with Dieng/Dunn/Rubio being the only solid defenders while guys who got heavy minutes like Lavine and Wiggins were equally confused as KAT.

Having Butler and Gibson, defensive vets who know the system already is going to help the defense a lot. KAT will get some upswing in his defensive metrics from the team improving alone. But I think theres plenty of room for his comfort level within the defense to increase with time. I think theres a very good chance in 2-3 years Towns isnt thought of as a negative defender at all or even seen as a pretty good one.

[SelfishPlayer]

Malone & Stockton, Nash & Dirk would be the template so you get a scoring PG that can knock down the three ball at a high clip like Curry and Kemba Walker. The other three players can just be 3 & D guys while a Porzingis and Kemba Walker pick & roll the league to death.

C Porzingis
PF
SF Jae Crowder
SG
PG Kemba Walker

[giordunk]

Malone & Stockton, Nash & Dirk would be the template so you get a scoring PG that can knock down the three ball at a high clip like Curry and Kemba Walker. The other three players can just be 3 & D guys while a Porzingis and Kemba Walker pick & roll the league to death.

C Porzingis
PF
SF Jae Crowder
SG
PG Kemba Walker

Not very original but seems like the right answer. I think the big thing is that you really want a point guard that always looks for the big guy.

[HeartBreakKid]

Porzingis and Gobert would be fun. Perhaps have a speedy undersized backcourt like Conley and Bradley to compliment it.

[SelfishPlayer]

Malone & Stockton, Nash & Dirk would be the template so you get a scoring PG that can knock down the three ball at a high clip like Curry and Kemba Walker. The other three players can just be 3 & D guys while a Porzingis and Kemba Walker pick & roll the league to death.

C Porzingis
PF
SF Jae Crowder
SG
PG Kemba Walker

Everything has already been done, you don't have to come up with totally original systems at this point in time. It's a crime that KAT and Porzingis haven't played with a 3 point shooting PG yet. Jameer Nelson should have been desired by some of these teams with younger star bigs. He's long removed from what he once was, but he's a vet that plays the 1/5 pick and roll on an NBA level in his sleep.