Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray?

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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#41 » by Asif16 » Wed Dec 6, 2017 7:19 pm

SF_Warriors wrote:
Double Helix wrote:
SF_Warriors wrote:
Kemba is not a good batman. I do not get why you think batum is a nice second option. He has never even averaged over 15.1 ppg in his career. Dwight's solid, but he is not head and shoulders above most centers like he once was.

They just do not have enough top end offensive talent, someone who can bump walker to #2. As far as what's available out there for them, that is hard to answer as those are very difficult to find.


Well, you look at how many teams are being lead by offensive PGs. If you check out the top RPM PGs in basketball right now (Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Lowry, Kryie, etc) Kemba is not far behind them and many teams seem to be building their offences around these types of scoring guards and finding success. Most of those high impact PGs are playing on teams who are good or great.

Zach Lowe and plenty of others have often mentioned Nic Batum as one of the more underrated players in the league. Based on the push for 2-way players you'd think a 2-way wing with his size who can pass and shoot 3s would have a bigger impact next to Walker.

Marvin Williams is the 7th highest PF via Real +/- and fits the mold of what many teams are now looking for in a hybrid forward.

Dwight Howard is Dwight Howard. A former 2-way superstar that's older but still seems to be an effective 2-way C.

Even that right there, on paper, seems to feature a solid amount of 2-way starters and an offensive pecking order not all that different than others who are finding more success.

I just checked out Batum's RPM this year for the first time and noticed how low it was. So, perhaps it's as simple as them not getting enough out of one of their highest paid guys now?

I don't mind their bench. I think many GMs would happily take MKG, Jeremy Lamb, Cody Zeller and Frank Kaminsky as rotational bench pieces.

Based on what others have said, and what I'm seeing out of Batum, it seems like these are the biggest issues they need to work on.

1) Batum needs to produce more like the 2-way analytics darling he was heralded as and is paid to be.
2) They need a scoring, reliable backup PG vet better than MCW. The kind of guy who could be on short lists for 6MOTY and feature in some 4th quarter small ball lineups next to Walker.
3) They need a better offensive system better suited to getting the most out of their personnel. Look at the difference Toronto has had simply be changing their offensive philosophy this year and making ball movement and 3s, and less high pick and rolls and isolation, their bread and butter.
4) They need to become a defensive team again. If you're going to feature guys whose value is tied to defence you can't be a medicore defensive team overall. You'd better become one of the top 10 defences in the league at a minimum or else what's the point? Especially if you went the 2-way route that leans a little more on the defensive side of the ball.


All those guards you named aside from lowry are much better offensive players. Not only are they all better scorers, but also better playmakers (kyrie arguable). Lowry and kemba are about the same level offensively but lowry gets the edge defensively and in playmaking, and he plays next to another all star guard and unfortunately, kemba does not.

Batum is a very solid 2-way wing. I would describe his game as smooth like butter, but you can't have a guy be a second option and not be capable of averaging more than 15-16ppg. You just can't. Batum is a quality glue guy and his role should be as such.

Marvin is a quality rotation guy, but an above average starting PF he is not. Would say average starter at best.

Dwights still a pretty good player but him, batum, and lamb is not enough offensive support for kemba. The team is 26th in FG%, 24th in 3pt%, 24th in scoring, 26th in FGA, 27th in 3PA. They do not have enough offensive talent, period.
I would say PF and wing next to batum are the two areas that could use an upgrade the most.

The bench has decent pieces with lamb and zeller. MKG is a starter for them so I do not know why you would list him as a bench player. Kamisky is hot garbage. If you need me to explain why I will.

So basically we have one below average first option. No good second option (dwight and batum are both good but neither are ideal second options and you know it), a decent bench, And two average starters in MKG and MWill. That is why they are a 7th to 12th seed out in the east

And do not confuse 2-way player with high impact. 2-way players can be solid but may not necessarily impact games like all stars.


Defense and having an all-star guard next to him, isn't the only difference between Lowry and Kemba.

Lowry is better in every other single category as well (Assist-Rebounding-PER-Plus/minus-Net Rating). Lowry is a bonafide leader and makes his whole team better.

Kemba, on the other hand, is just a really good scorer. If Charlotte really wants to take the next step with Kemba as their main player, they need Kemba to turn into a better all-around player first.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#42 » by 316Hornets » Wed Dec 6, 2017 7:25 pm

313 Professor wrote:
316Hornets wrote:
313 Professor wrote:Of all of the higher usage PG's I'd say Kemba is the worst of them.

Kyrie, Steph, Harden, CP3, Lillard, Westbrook, Wall, Conley, Lowry, IT, Bledsoe, Simmons I'd say are all better. I think all of the unrealistic expectations for them starts there. That's 12 PG's that are better than the best player on the Hornets. Only 16 teams make the playoffs.


This has got to be a joke, IT, Bledsoe, Conley, then you name CP3 and Harden, who play on the same team.


I could've made the post longer and went into how the other playoff tier teams have 2nd & 3rd best players >>> Batum & Howard, but I'm on my phone. Lol, not about to type all of that. You know the truth. The point is a PG-led team with the 13th best PG isn't going to be that much of a threat. Monk, Lamb, MKG, Marvin, etc, will have to play considerably better for them to be scary.

And yes I'd say Bledsoe, IT, and Conley (healthy of course) are better. IT >> offensively by a wide enough margin, Bledsoe and Conley >>> defensively by a wide enough margin and all-around. They're not leaps and bounds better but... >


Still think you must be joking. IT probably won't ever be the same again. Bledsoe was just traded for a box of donuts, and Mike Conley is shooting 38% this season with a -2.9 DBPM. Not even going to attack the rest of the guys you listed, but you're far off base.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#43 » by Zingod » Wed Dec 6, 2017 7:25 pm

Because they don't have alegit #1 guy. I'm sorry i wouldn't pay max contract for kemba. Nic batum contract is a joke.
They should start over or draft next giannis or kawhi which is unlikely.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#44 » by SF_Warriors » Wed Dec 6, 2017 7:32 pm

Asif16 wrote:
SF_Warriors wrote:
Double Helix wrote:
Well, you look at how many teams are being lead by offensive PGs. If you check out the top RPM PGs in basketball right now (Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Lowry, Kryie, etc) Kemba is not far behind them and many teams seem to be building their offences around these types of scoring guards and finding success. Most of those high impact PGs are playing on teams who are good or great.

Zach Lowe and plenty of others have often mentioned Nic Batum as one of the more underrated players in the league. Based on the push for 2-way players you'd think a 2-way wing with his size who can pass and shoot 3s would have a bigger impact next to Walker.

Marvin Williams is the 7th highest PF via Real +/- and fits the mold of what many teams are now looking for in a hybrid forward.

Dwight Howard is Dwight Howard. A former 2-way superstar that's older but still seems to be an effective 2-way C.

Even that right there, on paper, seems to feature a solid amount of 2-way starters and an offensive pecking order not all that different than others who are finding more success.

I just checked out Batum's RPM this year for the first time and noticed how low it was. So, perhaps it's as simple as them not getting enough out of one of their highest paid guys now?

I don't mind their bench. I think many GMs would happily take MKG, Jeremy Lamb, Cody Zeller and Frank Kaminsky as rotational bench pieces.

Based on what others have said, and what I'm seeing out of Batum, it seems like these are the biggest issues they need to work on.

1) Batum needs to produce more like the 2-way analytics darling he was heralded as and is paid to be.
2) They need a scoring, reliable backup PG vet better than MCW. The kind of guy who could be on short lists for 6MOTY and feature in some 4th quarter small ball lineups next to Walker.
3) They need a better offensive system better suited to getting the most out of their personnel. Look at the difference Toronto has had simply be changing their offensive philosophy this year and making ball movement and 3s, and less high pick and rolls and isolation, their bread and butter.
4) They need to become a defensive team again. If you're going to feature guys whose value is tied to defence you can't be a medicore defensive team overall. You'd better become one of the top 10 defences in the league at a minimum or else what's the point? Especially if you went the 2-way route that leans a little more on the defensive side of the ball.


All those guards you named aside from lowry are much better offensive players. Not only are they all better scorers, but also better playmakers (kyrie arguable). Lowry and kemba are about the same level offensively but lowry gets the edge defensively and in playmaking, and he plays next to another all star guard and unfortunately, kemba does not.

Batum is a very solid 2-way wing. I would describe his game as smooth like butter, but you can't have a guy be a second option and not be capable of averaging more than 15-16ppg. You just can't. Batum is a quality glue guy and his role should be as such.

Marvin is a quality rotation guy, but an above average starting PF he is not. Would say average starter at best.

Dwights still a pretty good player but him, batum, and lamb is not enough offensive support for kemba. The team is 26th in FG%, 24th in 3pt%, 24th in scoring, 26th in FGA, 27th in 3PA. They do not have enough offensive talent, period.
I would say PF and wing next to batum are the two areas that could use an upgrade the most.

The bench has decent pieces with lamb and zeller. MKG is a starter for them so I do not know why you would list him as a bench player. Kamisky is hot garbage. If you need me to explain why I will.

So basically we have one below average first option. No good second option (dwight and batum are both good but neither are ideal second options and you know it), a decent bench, And two average starters in MKG and MWill. That is why they are a 7th to 12th seed out in the east

And do not confuse 2-way player with high impact. 2-way players can be solid but may not necessarily impact games like all stars.


Defense and having an all-star guard next to him, isn't the only difference between Lowry and Kemba.

Lowry is better in every other single category as well (Assist-Rebounding-PER-Plus/minus-Net Rating). Lowry is a bonafide leader and makes his whole team better.

Kemba, on the other hand, is just a really good scorer. If Charlotte really wants to take the next step with Kemba as their main player, they need Kemba to turn into a better all-around player first.


Well I did say both defense AND playmaking when explaining why lowry is better but yea add rebounding. Generally lowry is just tough as nails and brings intangibles that kemba does not. Kemba is a worse player than lowry and also has no all star support.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#45 » by 316Hornets » Wed Dec 6, 2017 7:37 pm

SF_Warriors wrote:

Well I did say both defense AND playmaking when explaining why lowry is better but yea add rebounding. Generally lowry is just tough as nails and brings intangibles that kemba does not. Kemba is a worse player than lowry and also has no all star support.


What are these intangibles that you speak of? You mean like charges drawn, where Kemba was 4th in the league last year?
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#46 » by dukes_wild » Wed Dec 6, 2017 7:40 pm

If Nic Batum is your team's "Robin", you're in big trouble.

They just don't have a good enough #2 guy, and never have during Kemba's time there. Starting to remind me a lot of the Bosh-era Raptors. Prime Bosh is obviously better than Prime Kemba but the point is that team is just tread-milling, not drafting well, making some questionable linear trades/pointless free agent signings.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#47 » by OakleyDokely » Wed Dec 6, 2017 7:46 pm

They were a bit unlucky last year. They had the 7th best point differential in the east and finished 11th. This year, their point differential is comparable to lower seeded playoff teams so they should be in the mix for a playoff spot. A lower seeded playoff team is a reasonable expectation for them given their talent level.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#48 » by SF_Warriors » Wed Dec 6, 2017 7:46 pm

316Hornets wrote:
SF_Warriors wrote:

Well I did say both defense AND playmaking when explaining why lowry is better but yea add rebounding. Generally lowry is just tough as nails and brings intangibles that kemba does not. Kemba is a worse player than lowry and also has no all star support.


What are these intangibles that you speak of? You mean like charges drawn, where Kemba was 4th in the league last year?


overall defense (kemba is actually pretty solid but lowry is better)
strength/quickness (lowry is a better athlete imo)
playoff experience (almost 5x the amount of games and has advanced further)

I think overall they are close impact-wise, but have to give lowry the edge.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#49 » by pelifan » Wed Dec 6, 2017 8:25 pm

To be honest I thought the Hornets had been overachieving for years. They just simply don't have a lot of talent. Batum goes from being the 3rd or 4th best basketball player in Portland to the 2nd best in Charlotte and when you start talking about the merits of Marvin Williams you know you don't have much.

The hornets just have a bunch of average players.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#50 » by dacrusha » Wed Dec 6, 2017 8:33 pm

naabzor wrote:Batum is always hurt... MKG is always hurt and is a bust... Marvin Williams is what he is... a meh player... I don't see all the talent you are listing... Lamb become serviceable this year...


Completely agree.

On most winning teams, Williams, Lamb and MKG are nothing more than bench players. With Walker and Howard being 3rd-tier stars, it's imperative that they are surrounded by decent talent; but giving heavy minutes to players like Kaminsky, Zeller, Bacon and Carter-Williams just isn't going to cut it.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#51 » by TinmanZBoy » Wed Dec 6, 2017 8:38 pm

reading through this thread i feel that a lot of people did not watch how Kemba has been playing the last two seasons... he has been a top 10 PG...
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#52 » by dacrusha » Wed Dec 6, 2017 8:48 pm

amcoolio wrote:
Also, they haven't yet played the Suns, Lakers, Kings, Nets, and bunch of these bad teams other East teams like the Raptors have played a bunch so far.


Up until this week, Raptors have been saddled with the toughest schedule in the league and fewest home games played. They're at 4th toughest right now... but it'll only get easier with teams like the Hornets on their upcoming schedule 8-)
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#53 » by Throwback24 » Wed Dec 6, 2017 8:50 pm

Injuries, weird inconsistent coaching, and some really limited players with huge glaring weaknesses. No bench depth. They can retool like the Raptors
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#54 » by Kalela » Wed Dec 6, 2017 9:21 pm

Mylie10 wrote:Seems like Batum is constantly injured, and Kemba is not a great leader. He doesn't really make everyone better. He's just a really good scorer.


Kemba led a not very talented Uconn team to a NCAA title. He is a good player and a good leader. I hope the best for Clifford and I hope he recovers from whatever ailment he has but I still say the issue is a coaching problem and it is the same for most teams in the league.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#55 » by Illmatic12 » Wed Dec 6, 2017 9:26 pm

313 Professor wrote:Of all of the higher usage PG's I'd say Kemba is the worst of them.

Kyrie, Steph, Harden, CP3, Lillard, Westbrook, Wall, Conley, Lowry, IT, Bledsoe, Simmons I'd say are all better. I think all of the unrealistic expectations for them starts there. That's 12 PG's that are better than the best player on the Hornets. Only 16 teams make the playoffs.

Kemba is not the problem, that guy is really good. I'd take him over several of those guards you named.

Charlotte's problem is that they have no one else who can make things happen. Batum has a nice skillset but he's injury-prone and sucking up a massive amount of capspace, other than him no one else on their roster can pass or create offense.

They aren't terrible, these past few seasons Charlotte has had the point-differential of a decent team. but they're losing on the margins . Lack of bench support, and minimal offensive options down the stretch of close games rear their head and lead to Ls.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#56 » by Sothron » Wed Dec 6, 2017 9:30 pm

Injuries with the current roster are what's holding them back. Historically over the last ten years or so I would have to point to horrible drafting and the non stop coaching carousel. It never gets mentioned but the Bobcats/Hornets go through coaches like tissue paper.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#57 » by SF_Warriors » Wed Dec 6, 2017 9:31 pm

TinmanZBoy wrote:reading through this thread i feel that a lot of people did not watch how Kemba has been playing the last two seasons... he has been a top 10 PG...


I don't know if anyone was inferring that he wasn't a top 10 PG. Pretty sure the general consensus is that he is not an ideal first option, and if he were to be a first option on a good team that he does not currently have enough help to do so.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#58 » by Illmatic12 » Wed Dec 6, 2017 9:35 pm

J-House wrote:Hornets also don’t draft well

Bingo.. Charlotte has been shooting blanks in the draft for like 4-5 years in a row, that's the core issue of why their roster is the way it is. Plenty other teams were bad over that time period as well, but did better in the draft and saved themselves.

With more prudent drafting the Hornets could easily be looking at a young core of Kemba, Beal, Booker, Turner OR even traded for an established star like Demarcus Cousins, Paul George, Jimmy Butler with some of those pieces -- in fact, Houston offered James Harden to the Hornets for the 2012 #2 pick and they declined, this has been confirmed. Jury's still out on Monk but I'd bet in a redraft they'd take Mitchell and run (of course , a lot of teams who picked in the top 10 would do the same)


You can always say "hindsight is 20-20" but you can't miss in the draft THAT many times and recover. You can't have that many lottery picks turn into a collection of okay-ish role players. Whoever the Hornets have doing scouting and talent evaluation has be held to a higher standard.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#59 » by HurricaneKid » Wed Dec 6, 2017 9:50 pm

Its the injuries. I'm sure most Hornets fans have been disappointed with MKG as a 2nd overall pick. But worse, he has been injured a TON. He also can't shoot. Batum is long and has his moments but he tore his rotator cuff and is trying to tough it out. I'm amazed he has made this choice and while it is admirable it has absolutely wreaked havoc on his shot. He is shooting 21% from 3 this year (can't shoot). They got Dwight for one of the worst deals in the NBA because ATL wanted him GONE, but he is far from a difference maker. Marvin is a "keep gettin dem checks" player who doesn't do much but sit outside and shoot. His scoring average has started to slip in his 13th season. To have a ball handler and a stretch 4 that can shoot and three guys that can't just allows defenses to sit in the paint and force shots from outside in high leverage moments.

There isn't any shooting (MKG, Batum, D12) or Kemba would have more space to work on ball. And they don't have anyone else that can initiate outside of Kemba.

For all the "the east is wide open" talk, the middle/bottom of the east is miles better than the middle/bottom of the west and injuries, a lack of shooting, and the abject lack of a secondary playmaker have the Hornets playing just below their level.

Its too bad, Kemba seems to be getting the brunt of unfair attacks because there just isn't a lot to work with offensively. MKG is a bulldog defensively but having a wing that shoots like that is problematic in the current league, especially with another injured shooter who can't plus a lumbering C... Good luck.
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Re: Why do the Hornets continue to underachieve? What’s their bug spray? 

Post#60 » by MaxRider » Wed Dec 6, 2017 9:54 pm

maybe because they never get to draft in the top 3 and when they did they traded for Tyrus Thomas and injured MKG

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